1. #861
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Fear of the end of the world is fear of the end of the world. When you're afraid of the your entire world ending...the gender of the person ending it is unimportant.
    But any one of the Aes Sadi over the about 3,000 years could have been the dragon. Wouldn't that fear grow stale when none of them went mad and broke the world? It isn't just that the Dragon would change things that people feared but that he would break the world again. A literal event that happened in the past because of the male half of the one power.

    It wasn't just prophecy that happened the last time. But a real event that people have feared would happen again because of the prophecies surrounding the Dragon. That completely changes when you no longer have to fear the one power automatically causing the person to go insane. Any sister, or "not yet found by the white tower" user could channel the one power with out going mad.

    The gender is entirely important when the fear of the world breaking again is distinctly tied to the gender of the person. You keep missing that fact which is why you'll likely never understand, or agree to, how profoundly the lore is changed. Actually you will acknowledge it as you've stated in the past you'll only accept a problem with the changes when they actually make the Dragon female. Which is silly. You see the problems. You acknowledge it exists but cover your eyes until they cross the arbitrary line you've drawn.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #862
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But any one of the Aes Sadi over the about 3,000 years could have been the dragon. Wouldn't that fear grow stale when none of them went mad and broke the world? It isn't just that the Dragon would change things that people feared but that he would break the world again. A literal event that happened in the past because of the male half of the one power.

    It wasn't just prophecy that happened the last time. But a real event that people have feared would happen again because of the prophecies surrounding the Dragon.
    The TV series hasn't established anything beyond simple exposition of the prophecy that a Dragon would be reborn. Everything else has been left ambiguous or unexplained.

    The Aes Sedai of the TV series is not operating in the same way as the book. Wouldn't people just fear the Dragon Reborn could be Aes Sedai? Well people already do fear Aes Sedai and aren't welcoming them in open arms already, as established by the way people are hesitant of Moraine and how the Whitecloaks are literally established as 'Witch-hunters'. We haven't been explicitly given any information on when the Dragon would be reborn, and only go off on what Moraine has exposited; mainly that she thinks it's one of the 4 main characters, which the barmaid then exposited to 5 (and we don't know exactly which 5th she was referring to). That's about the extent of it as far as the TV series goes.

    Everything else you're bringing to the table doesn't exist in the TV universe until we see it explained. It doesn't magically get backstory from the books just because you happened to read them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #863
    I propose to create an "adaptation" of the Bible where no one knows if the Son of God is going to be born a man or a woman. It's God so gender shouldn't matter and I don't think that simple change of prophecy would have any effect on Jewish culture, right?

  4. #864
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The Aes Sedai of the TV series is not operating in the same way as the book.
    Well yeah. Which means it is a poor adaptation and just a "Generic fantasy show" using the same nouns as Wheel of Time. That has been the point of this entire discussion. That the changes they are making are diverging in major ways from the story of the books that it essentially just the books in name only.

    The White Cloaks are pretty much filling the same roll as in the books so far. The trivia when paused has hinted at stuff being changed in greater ways then just shown during the episodes. Which is how we know it was the entire Karaethon Cycle that changed and not just what ever prophecy Moirane heard. Her thinking that the two women could be dragons is a big change similar to the change in "origin" story of Matt and Perrin. Because it changes the reasons for why they were included it just isn't as core of a change as the gendered souls.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-11-29 at 12:53 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #865
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Did it get in the way of your enjoyment of the films overall? Genuinely curious, because I do not know what extent of criticism you had, and whether or not it would be comparable to the criticisms you have of WoT, which I feel is getting in the way of your enjoyment of the show.

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    It undermines the book lore, but does nothing for the TV lore so far since the prophecy hasn't even been properly established. We just know inklings of what it is about, from various expositions.

    If the book were a weekly series like a Comic/Manga, it would be written very differently than if it were as a novel. The purpose of this change does serve the narrative of the TV series, because it works as a hook to keep people guessing on who the Dragon may be. And 'no intention of changing' is not the point, since we all know who the Dragon is, and let's face it, would it ever be acceptable to anyone to make such a drastic change? That's He-Man Revelations level of bait and switch.
    Guessing who the Dragon is going to be is an unnecessary story element given that we have only 4 episodes left. They are obviously not going to do a book a season, so get it out of the way and work on things that matter. As I have said previously in this thread, the whole reason they are scared of the Dragon being reborn is that male channelers go mad. Take away the threat of that and you still wasted time in episodes dealing with an unimportant plot device.

  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    I propose to create an "adaptation" of the Bible where no one knows if the Son of God is going to be born a man or a woman. It's God so gender shouldn't matter and I don't think that simple change of prophecy would have any effect on Jewish culture, right?
    I mean, if you really think about...Christianity is already an "adaptation". Made some fundamental changes to the "Source Material".

    But let's not get into religion..forbidden topic and all that.
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-11-29 at 01:12 AM.

  7. #867
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    I propose to create an "adaptation" of the Bible where no one knows if the Son of God is going to be born a man or a woman. It's God so gender shouldn't matter and I don't think that simple change of prophecy would have any effect on Jewish culture, right?
    Can't be any worse than the Book of Mormon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    Guessing who the Dragon is going to be is an unnecessary story element given that we have only 4 episodes left. They are obviously not going to do a book a season, so get it out of the way and work on things that matter. As I have said previously in this thread, the whole reason they are scared of the Dragon being reborn is that male channelers go mad. Take away the threat of that and you still wasted time in episodes dealing with an unimportant plot device.
    That fear still exists with every male channeller anyone comes across. The fear of the Dragon beyond that doesn't even formally exist in the series, as Moraine just wants to get to them before the Dark One does, and not of fear of insanity or whatnot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Well yeah. Which means it is a poor adaptation and just a "Generic fantasy show" using the same nouns as Wheel of Time. That has been the point of this entire discussion. That the changes they are making are diverging in major ways from the story of the books that it essentially just the books in name only.
    Which is on par with LOTR and GOT.....

    These all changed and adapted the stories to however they see fit, and people can call LoTR a poor adaptation as much as they want, that's also in this thread discussion. Poor adaptation is subjective.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-29 at 01:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  8. #868
    Here's how I would end each of the seasons.

    Season 1: ends at eye of the world. Rand realizes he's the dragon
    Season 2: Ends with the big battle where everyone realizes Rand is the dragon
    Season 3: Stone of Tyr
    Season 4: Aiel season, culminating with "death" of Moiraine
    Season 5: Bowl of the Winds? I don't know, the middle of the series is so muddled. Also could be the fight against Rahvin and Sammael.
    Season 6: Cleansing of saidin
    Season 7: Rand kidnapped by Red Ajah, goes mad, then redeems himself
    Season 8: Last battle


    I did this in about 2 minutes from memory, any big things I'm missing?

  9. #869
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That you choose to call this generic fantasy doesn't change the fact that these all changed and adapted the stories to however they see fit, and people can call LoTR a poor adaptation as much as they want, that's also in this thread discussion.
    No one has ever claimed this is the first or only adaptation to make major changes to source material. Why can't we wish for something better instead of something worse or par for the course?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  10. #870
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    I propose to create an "adaptation" of the Bible where no one knows if the Son of God is going to be born a man or a woman. It's God so gender shouldn't matter and I don't think that simple change of prophecy would have any effect on Jewish culture, right?
    There is a part of me that is surprised Dune kept Paul as the hero instead of somehow making it Zendaya tbh
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  11. #871
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    No one has ever claimed this is the first or only adaptation to make major changes to source material. Why can't we wish for something better instead of something worse or par for the course?
    It's called an audiobook. I mean, I don't know how else to answer that.

    To me its like a hardcore comic fan criticizing MCU changes to the comics and thinking sticking closer to the comics would make it better. But really, whether they stick with the origins or not, movies and TV series aren't made to tell those stories exactly as they existed on the original source. They're made to be entertainment in the format they exist in. 'Par on course' should be expected because that is the nature of the medium we're discussing. This isn't a graphic novel or an audiobook. It's a TV miniseries.

    I see this little different than hardcore comic fans thinking it would be better if MCU stuck more closely to the comics, and then calling the movies poor adaptations and bringing up how the changes on the MCU alter the lore established by the comics. To me, 'Par on course' means MCU can be a poor adaptation of the comics, but an entertaining series of movies with its own established mythology within its collective universe. When fans start using comic origins to argue stuff in the MCU is where I start pointing flaws in those arguments. Adaptations aren't beholden to the same rules as the source.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-29 at 02:04 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  12. #872
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    Here's how I would end each of the seasons.

    Season 1: ends at eye of the world. Rand realizes he's the dragon
    Season 2: Ends with the big battle where everyone realizes Rand is the dragon
    Season 3: Stone of Tyr
    Season 4: Aiel season, culminating with "death" of Moiraine
    Season 5: Bowl of the Winds? I don't know, the middle of the series is so muddled. Also could be the fight against Rahvin and Sammael.
    Season 6: Cleansing of saidin
    Season 7: Rand kidnapped by Red Ajah, goes mad, then redeems himself
    Season 8: Last battle


    I did this in about 2 minutes from memory, any big things I'm missing?
    The only thing big enough would probably be

    Egwene uniting the White Tower

  13. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Can't be any worse than the Book of Mormon

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    That fear still exists with every male channeller anyone comes across. The fear of the Dragon beyond that doesn't even formally exist in the series, as Moraine just wants to get to them before the Dark One does, and not of fear of insanity or whatnot.

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    Which is on par with LOTR and GOT.....

    These all changed and adapted the stories to however they see fit, and people can call LoTR a poor adaptation as much as they want, that's also in this thread discussion. Poor adaptation is subjective.
    Then, as an adaptation they have done a poor job showing why people should fear the Dragon, who he was, and what it actually means when they say he broke the world or how powerful he was. You say there is fear of male channelers everywhere, but if they say the Dragon is a female, then the male channeler story thread becomes extraneous and a waste of time when you only have 8 episodes to tell your story. If nothing changes and the Dragon is who it is in the books, then you still wasted time in the 8 episodes trying to seed doubt where it didn’t need to be. And the thing is, even in the books no one that left Emonds Field was unimportant or a minor character. Hell, if Jordon had cut most of the Aes Sedai intrigue and stuff about Egwene and Nynaeve he probably could have shortened the series by 4 books at least.

  14. #874
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's called an audiobook. I mean, I don't know how else to answer that.
    Audiobooks are not adaptations but just the written word spoken out loud. You may be thinking of Audio Dramas which are more like a radio show/play. Why is it that we have to settle for sub par visual adaptations of written word? Changing core story elements of the books doesn't make sense if your intent is just to create a visual version. It makes even less sense if you don't intend to change who the key character is.

    It isn't required to change core things about source material just because it is a visual medium.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #875
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It undermines the book lore, but does nothing for the TV lore so far since the prophecy hasn't even been properly established. We just know inklings of what it is about, from various expositions.
    The TV lore should not be different from the book lore. That's the point.

    The lore should be the same, details and some story beats that don't change the overall narrative are expected to be changed. But the core lore of the universe should not.

    If the book were a weekly series like a Comic/Manga, it would be written very differently than if it were as a novel. The purpose of this change does serve the narrative of the TV series, because it works as a hook to keep people guessing on who the Dragon may be.
    I disagree. It doesn't need that hook, for one. Also, there are plenty of other hooks they could use that feed directly into the actual of the book characters narratives.

    Rand and his sword training to get the heron marked sword, and his heritage marking his as Aiel, Mat and his fascination with Manetheren history, Nynaeave and her penchant for healing and inability to surrender to Saidar, Egwene and the White Tower (which I'm sure is coming), Perrin and his golden eyes, Mathias and his connection to the wolves.

    And 'no intention of changing' is not the point, since we all know who the Dragon is, and let's face it, would it ever be acceptable to anyone to make such a drastic change? That's He-Man Revelations level of bait and switch.
    Agreed, but my point is the changes they've made to get this "hook" as you call it are completely unnecessary and IMO don't do anything but take away from the core lore of the books, which undermines a LOT of the reasons the world is the way it is.

    It hasn't destroyed the story, but I'm skeptical, and wouldn't be all that surprised if they did. So far, I'm still enjoying it and will continue watching it for as long as I do.

  16. #876
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    The problem is, that undermines a lot of the foundations of subsequent story lines. It erodes much of the structure of the Aes Sedai, for example - if females could be the Dragon, how do they deal with that within their ranks? Why aren't they constantly paranoid one of them might be the Dragon Reborn? Why is the Red Ajah so powerful if it's not fueled by the mission to subdue male channelers in fear of them turning out to be the Dragon? If the Red Ajah's militarism isn't as pronounced, how does the Black Ajah gain a foothold in the Tower? And so on and so forth.

    Sure you can change things, but the world is built on top of foundational plot points - and if you change those, then everything built on top is in peril as well. They can just gloss over that and ignore the implications, of course; but weakening the world-building in a series beloved for its intricate world-building can backfire spectacularly.
    I agree here.

    These changes alter and diminish the story.

    The power of the story and its charm.

    While the series is a good fantasy series. It’s nothing particularaly special.

    Much of the unique charm is eroded by their changes.

    Egwene having sex with Rand while minor is an example. The fact they didn’t actually makes it stand out more than just throwing it in there because every series has two main leads fucking.


    Off course there are bigger offensives.

    My flatmate pointed out that the opening scene suggested the one power had no gender halves. The red ajah AES Sedai phrased it in a way that implies that.


    The series needed to also be 23 episodes long and capture more of the charm
    The book brings.

    Like the women’s circle in the village in the opening chapters and their relationship and views of the village council.

    Rand and Tam’s first journey to the village where the Mryddraal is ghosting them has such a suspense mystery air to it that really sets up things.

    The initial explanation of the ine power Moiraine reveals. Her air of mystery when she first arrives. All of this and more is charm
    Just eroded.

  17. #877
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    Here's how I would end each of the seasons.
    Pfft... If it were me and given a blank check every season, it'd be a minimum of 20 episodes per season for every book. And cutting out some of the more unneeded language and smoothing out some scenes I might get it done in 9 seasons.

  18. #878
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    "I won't whine much about eye colour"

    *Proceeds to whine about eye colour*
    Illustrating when it can be important is not whining. Nor is stating that you prefer it to match the original medium.

    Funny thing is you didn’t get that I was agreeing with you that it was important mostly plot wise (not preference wise) except. In the occasions when it is.

    These film versions must ask the question if they are trying to bring the book to life in the visual medium or just merely want to cash in on their fame.

    Books are a fair bit more detailed than video games, the narratives and descriptions are important.

    However some changes are good, some are okay and may have good reasons to make but don’t really impact the story.

    Some are just inexcusable. They just change the aithor’s main story without consideration.

  19. #879

    Horrible warders.

    I understand taking liberties but what I watched on Prime doesnt feel right nor is it based on the books. The TV series is totally off-putting. No distinct fighting style for blademasters. Dont let me get started on the warders.

  20. #880
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Audiobooks are not adaptations but just the written word spoken out loud. You may be thinking of Audio Dramas which are more like a radio show/play. Why is it that we have to settle for sub par visual adaptations of written word? Changing core story elements of the books doesn't make sense if your intent is just to create a visual version. It makes even less sense if you don't intend to change who the key character is.

    It isn't required to change core things about source material just because it is a visual medium.
    It makes sense when the audience the series is intended for is much more broader than people who have already read the books and are expected it regurgitated in another medium. That's effectively the difference here, and why Amazon put money into making this series when we all pretty much know it only exists because they want their own 'Game of Thrones', and not because they have any active interest in preserving the story of the books.

    And in the eyes of whoever is in charge of the series, that Rafe guy or whatever execs we don't know of, they obviously have their own agendas to present a more 'modern' version that has more appeal to the casual non-book reader. Again, not my preference for what actually happened, but this is literally what we got and the reasons for it. This isn't a passionate fan's dedicated vision, like PJ's LOTR or Villeneuve's Dune that we're talking about, unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    Then, as an adaptation they have done a poor job showing why people should fear the Dragon, who he was, and what it actually means when they say he broke the world or how powerful he was. You say there is fear of male channelers everywhere, but if they say the Dragon is a female, then the male channeler story thread becomes extraneous and a waste of time when you only have 8 episodes to tell your story.
    So what is the better option? Keep it all male only, and have the female characters be unimportant-yet-powerful tag-alongs for the sake of it? The books have already been criticized for poor portrayals of females, and we're in a time when there is a greater demand for stronger female representation in entertainment mediums (whether coming from fans or from producers, for whatever reasons they have). While I'd agree that preserving the books would be a sensible thing to do, I mean... I just see a conflict of interest for a 8-episode series that has female characters that you have no reason to root for as opposed to how it's currently playing out where there's strong female characters and non-book readers have reasons to be interested in them, even if it's a 'bait and switch'. It serves the purpose of the narrative that this mini series aims to tell, even if it's absolutely twisting the original narrative.

    I'd just as much compare this to the introduction of a romantic subplot in the Hobbit where it was absolutely unnecessary. Does it deserve to be there? No. But it's not like we don't know why it's been added. We know. It sucks that it was added, but we know why it's there.

    If nothing changes and the Dragon is who it is in the books, then you still wasted time in the 8 episodes trying to seed doubt where it didn’t need to be. And the thing is, even in the books no one that left Emonds Field was unimportant or a minor character. Hell, if Jordon had cut most of the Aes Sedai intrigue and stuff about Egwene and Nynaeve he probably could have shortened the series by 4 books at least.
    Again, I'm not the one making the creative decisions, so I can't speak out on their choices. We simply know why they chose to do it, because that's pretty much how things are. I don't know if 'Girl Power' makes it easier to greenlight shows on liberal media TV platforms or what, but that's pretty much how it is with any series. I'm just gonna say I don't think anyone should be surprised at the changes, and that the changes themselves aren't really affecting the storyline of the TV series since there's been no establishment that people are generally afraid of the Dragon Reborn specifically because he is a male channeller prone to madness. This simply has not been established in the TV series, so I still consider this baggage from the books that doesn't really concern the TV series at all.

    Much like someone arguing Comic book origins of a superhero and making points of how MCU versions of Spiderman never talked about Power and Responsibility or really make mention of Uncle Ben. Like, we don't really need that in order to enjoy the new Spiderman as Spiderman. WHether someone thinks having it would make the story/character/world more coherent and immersive is really up to the individual, and it's not some flaw of the MCU for omitting Uncle Ben.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The TV lore should not be different from the book lore. That's the point.
    The TV show isn't the book, that's also the point.

    What TV series has 1:1 exact same lore as its book counterparts? Is it sensible to bring up Game of Thrones book lore into GoT TV series discussions? If it's to make comparisons and criticisms of how one could be better, then sure. But if it's to criticize that the TV series has screwed up because it didn't stick to the book lore, then that's a different argument, and one that isn't really substantial since we're obviously talking about a TV adaptation that has taken creative liberties.

    Again, why should the TV series be regarded as a translation of the book? The lore being the same means it's a translation, and that's not what this is.

    The lore of LOTR movies isn't even the books, when you consider how many changes were made to characters (Tom Bombadil), plot lines (scouring of the Shire) and even the entire world. Yet when making sense of things within the narrative of the movies, there's no real point in reaching into the books and considering the lore as being one and the same. They aren't the same. They never will be. And this will be relevant in the near future, when the Amazon LOTR series arrives.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-29 at 05:12 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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