1. #901
    The problem with this comparison is that the original LOTR movies are beloved classics and the Hobbit movies are unwatchable garbage.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  2. #902
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    That throws away about half of the books.
    Honestly, the series would have been better if it were half as many books as it ended up being

  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Honestly, the series would have been better if it were half as many books as it ended up being
    You agree that there shouldn't be Seanchan or Shaido? Tossing Perrin's arc and no Raven Prince...?

  4. #904
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Honestly, the series would have been better if it were half as many books as it ended up being
    Yeah at some point he clearly decided to just drag it out as long as possible. You can mostly skip books 6-10 other than a few key events, and the other books aren’t exactly fast paced either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    You agree that there shouldn't be Seanchan or Shaido? Tossing Perrin's arc and no Raven Prince...?
    The Seanchan stuff was incredibly annoying, and the Shaido story was slllooooowww. It’s all fluff.

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    The Seanchan stuff was incredibly annoying, and the Shaido story was slllooooowww. It’s all fluff.
    Seanchan collared Aes Sedai...had an invincible army that even the Aiel refused to fight... Both Shaido and Seanchan created an epic dynamic that showed most of the existing. The only thing we didn't get to see were the lands of the Shara. I find it interesting that the complaint is now "too many books."

  6. #906
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    You agree that there shouldn't be Seanchan or Shaido? Tossing Perrin's arc and no Raven Prince...?
    I'm just saying for a series that was originally planned to be 6 books to end up going over double that...there's some bloat there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I find it interesting that the complaint is now "too many books."
    It's not exactly a new complaint.

  7. #907
    Hmf..
    Rafe says readers already know who the Dragon is...
    But that's in the book.
    What better way to "subvert expectations" than by making it someone else in the show?

  8. #908
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    I'm just saying for a series that was originally planned to be 6 books to end up going over double that...there's some bloat there.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's not exactly a new complaint.
    To use an analogy

    One book is basically telling the events of JFK's assassination
    And the next book is "what were you doing when JFK was assassinated"

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Hmf..
    Rafe says readers already know who the Dragon is...
    But that's in the book.
    What better way to "subvert expectations" than by making it someone else in the show?
    The show has already shown hints of the original Dragon using the one power (episode 3)

  9. #909
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Hmf..
    Rafe says readers already know who the Dragon is...
    But that's in the book.
    What better way to "subvert expectations" than by making it someone else in the show?
    Or else you subvert the now subverted expectations, and end up right back where everyone expected you to be!

  10. #910
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    An adaptation that loose would be a sad mockery of the story and a sorry excuse of an adaptation and would get rightly ridiculed for it.
    I don't see MCU getting ridiculed for being loose adaptations of the comics, do you? I mean if it's coming from comic book purists, then what's the mockery really worth here? The majority of MCU fans don't give a shit, nor should they.

    WOT isn't made only for the book fans, that's what you need to consider here. Whatever 'mockery' this series gets doesn't matter as much as whether or not the series holds up as entertaining content. Not sure about you, but when comic fans come out of the woodwork to cry out on how Thanos in the MCU isn't as epic as his comic book counterpart, it really holds little water. Mockery and ridicule from the purists is worth what, exactly?

    If the series tanks, it would be on the weight of its own performance. This rings true for the best and worst MCU adaptations, the best and worst seasons of Game of Thrones, the best and worst of any adaptation whether it's loose adaptations like Blade Runner or close adaptations like Dune. Ridicule should be the least of anyone's worries.

    I'm not nearly as well versed in LotR lore as I am WoT lore. So I'll concede that because I'm more connected to the WoT story I'm seeing the changes more keenly with WoT. Some changes may not affect the overall story of the books, but IMO, the changes they seem to be hinting at in WoT destroy some of the core tenets of the world lore. Again, we'll have to see just how much those changes affect the overall narrative.
    You hold it sacred and have an expectation that the TV series should be beholden to the book lore. I get that. I don't diminish the sentiment, and that's not my point here. I get that people want things closer to the book. The conflict here is that these shows don't exist to provide the best quality retelling of a classic Epic; it's here to cash in on the fame and audience of the Game of Thrones casuals who are looking for another big fantasy TV series to latch on to. And that's why this whole series has a 'paint by numbers' feel to it, hitting all the checkboxes that fit the modern style of TV series. That's why the story is being changed around, that's why certain characters are propped up while others are 'diminished' (I would consider it 'humbled'), and overall the plot of the series still aims to hit the same overall notes. When you get down to it, the series is about the Dragon Reborn saving the world against the Dark One, and whether the prophecy is extended to both genders or not, the overall plot doesn't actually change. The world around it changes, but the overall plot does not. Of course, it will mean more changes down the line to accomodate the fundamental world change, and I don't think anyone is surprised here that it will happen.

    It's about the same as something like adding Elves to Helms Deep, who all get slaughtered to the last man so none stay alive to move on to the next film or affect the plot. It fundamentally changes the world since the Elves in the lore are too proud and too few in number to offer aid to the 'lesser races', which they no real interest in helping directly. Depending on the perspective, you could see it as diminishing the lore of the books, or you could simply take it at face value and accept the narrative changes as something that is exclusive to the movies

    The history of the Elves caring little for the lesser races is not a theme carried much in the movies, so something like Elves at Helms Deep actually works in the film medium, because it's integrated into the overall world changes. And my point here has been that the gender-agnostic Dragon Reborn is right now being written as a part of this series, and the TV world is not beholden to the lore of the book. The world of the TV series is not built on gendered souls. There has been ZERO explanation around the nuances of rebirth and reincarnation in the TV series, so it's not actually missing anything from the books, rather that it's not yet established any of the rules for this particular adaptation. That's what has to be considered here.

    As I said, everyone is free to criticize and voice concerns. I'm not even particularly disagreeing, since I personally think the changes were unnecessary as well. My point is to say that within the context of the TV series so far, nothing is actually world-breaking because the rules of the world are still being established. They aren't pre-established by anything in the books. Just like if you watch an MCU movie, none of the rules from the comics need apply to the actual movies. The MCU can introduce Spiderman without Uncle Ben and the Power = Responsibility motivations. They can introduce Tony Stark who immediately outs himself as Iron Man. The MCU is it's own self contained universe. That's how I think WoT should be addressed; as its own self-contained universe rather than being some extension of the book lore in Live Action form. It's not the book series.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-30 at 12:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  11. #911
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    That throws away about half of the books.
    If you cut out Shaido, Seanchan, and most of the black Ajah intrigue you have a 5 book series.

  12. #912
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I don't see MCU getting ridiculed for being loose adaptations of the comics, do you? .
    *raises hand*
    Because omg yes...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    If you cut out Shaido, Seanchan, and most of the black Ajah intrigue you have a 5 book series.
    That would certainly streamline things. Hell, wouldn't need 8 seasons to do that.

  13. #913
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I don't see MCU getting ridiculed for being loose adaptations of the comics, do you? I mean if it's coming from comic book purists, then what's the mockery really worth here? The majority of MCU fans don't give a shit, nor should they.

    WOT isn't made only for the book fans, that's what you need to consider here. Whatever 'mockery' this series gets doesn't matter as much as whether or not the series holds up as entertaining content. Not sure about you, but when comic fans come out of the woodwork to cry out on how Thanos in the MCU isn't as epic as his comic book counterpart, it really holds little water. Mockery and ridicule from the purists is worth what, exactly?

    If the series tanks, it would be on the weight of its own performance. This rings true for the best and worst MCU adaptations, the best and worst seasons of Game of Thrones, the best and worst of any adaptation whether it's loose adaptations like Blade Runner or close adaptations like Dune. Ridicule should be the least of anyone's worries.



    You hold it sacred and have an expectation that the TV series should be beholden to the book lore. I get that. I don't diminish the sentiment, and that's not my point here. I get that people want things closer to the book. The conflict here is that these shows don't exist to provide the best quality retelling of a classic Epic; it's here to cash in on the fame and audience of the Game of Thrones casuals who are looking for another big fantasy TV series to latch on to. And that's why this whole series has a 'paint by numbers' feel to it, hitting all the checkboxes that fit the modern style of TV series. That's why the story is being changed around, that's why certain characters are propped up while others are 'diminished' (I would consider it 'humbled'), and overall the plot of the series still aims to hit the same overall notes. When you get down to it, the series is about the Dragon Reborn saving the world against the Dark One, and whether the prophecy is extended to both genders or not, the overall plot doesn't actually change. The world around it changes, but the overall plot does not. Of course, it will mean more changes down the line to accomodate the fundamental world change, and I don't think anyone is surprised here that it will happen.

    It's about the same as something like adding Elves to Helms Deep, who all get slaughtered to the last man so none stay alive to move on to the next film or affect the plot. It fundamentally changes the world since the Elves in the lore are too proud and too few in number to offer aid to the 'lesser races', which they no real interest in helping directly. Depending on the perspective, you could see it as diminishing the lore of the books, or you could simply take it at face value and accept the narrative changes as something that is exclusive to the movies

    The history of the Elves caring little for the lesser races is not a theme carried much in the movies, so something like Elves at Helms Deep actually works in the film medium, because it's integrated into the overall world changes. And my point here has been that the gender-agnostic Dragon Reborn is right now being written as a part of this series, and the TV world is not beholden to the lore of the book. The world of the TV series is not built on gendered souls. There has been ZERO explanation around the nuances of rebirth and reincarnation in the TV series, so it's not actually missing anything from the books, rather that it's not yet established any of the rules for this particular adaptation. That's what has to be considered here.

    As I said, everyone is free to criticize and voice concerns. I'm not even particularly disagreeing, since I personally think the changes were unnecessary as well. My point is to say that within the context of the TV series so far, nothing is actually world-breaking because the rules of the world are still being established and are not pre-established by anything in the books. Just like if you watch an MCU movie, none of the rules from the comics need apply to the actual movies. The MCU can introduce Spiderman without Uncle Ben and the Power = Resonsibility motivations without having that be a core criticism of 'changing the story'. That's how I think WoT should be addressed; as its own self-contained universe rather than being some extension of the book lore in Live Action form. It's not the book series.
    Honestly, my expectations for fantasy are far higher than comic books, which are constantly reinvented with multiverses and all sorts of crap.

    And yes, Lotr had some differences but the basic story beats were the same. This isn't even close. It's like if in LOTR, the first scenes in the shire were split between the perspectives of all 4 hobbits instead of told from Frodo's, then during the trip to Rivendell there's a plotline where Strider ends up hanging out with the Dunedain for a few nights and they explore that world. It's weird and choppy.

  14. #914
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    And yes, Lotr had some differences but the basic story beats were the same. This isn't even close. It's like if in LOTR, the first scenes in the shire were split between the perspectives of all 4 hobbits instead of told from Frodo's, then during the trip to Rivendell there's a plotline where Strider ends up hanging out with the Dunedain for a few nights and they explore that world. It's weird and choppy.
    The Hobbit.

    Which are still very much watchable and entertaining movies in their own right. You simply need to detach yourself from expecting the movies to be true to the books to actually get any entertainment value out of. The expectations will get in the way of enjoying it for what it is, since you're always going to compare it to what you want to expect instead.

    If there's criticisms of the Hobbit, it should be on the merit of the movies as movies. The romantic subplot felt forced, the pacing was odd, and some of the acting was not on the level as LOTR. I think these are the kind of criticisms that are fine to have, since we're talking about the series as a series, and not just nitpicking how the changes aren't like how they were in the books.

    So yes, if they added scenes that made the movie felt weird and choppy, that's valid. And I haven't really dismissed any of those criticisms of WoT. I absolutely think WoT first 3 eps were very rushed and paced poorly. But the whole Gender changes? We haven't reached any level to see it actually being a problem, so it's literally a case of waiting and seeing if it will actually turn sour. If the series hasn't actually turned sour yet, I don't think we should immediately criticize it for being sour. Let's wait and see what the writers actually choose to do with it.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-30 at 12:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  15. #915
    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    To use an analogy

    One book is basically telling the events of JFK's assassination
    And the next book is "what were you doing when JFK was assassinated"
    Yup. That's pretty much it exactly.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I don't see MCU getting ridiculed for being loose adaptations of the comics, do you? I mean if it's coming from comic book purists, then what's the mockery really worth here? The majority of MCU fans don't give a shit, nor should they.
    Because the comic books adapt themselves with new story lines or alternative timelines all the time. There is no single core for a lot of the stuff. They also were not direct adaptations of the storylines in a specific comic book.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #917
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Because the comic books adapt themselves with new story lines or alternative timelines all the time. There is no single core for a lot of the stuff. They also were not direct adaptations of the storylines in a specific comic book.
    But the adaptations were never beholden to sticking to any particular storyline, even if they did adapt a comic book directly.

    Look at Watchmen or 300. They were directly based on singular stories, and they both had major changes, and yet they were still entertaining movies in their own right. We don't have to just be talking about the Spiderman movies or Hellboy which aren't based on any one comic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  18. #918
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The Hobbit.

    Which are still very much watchable and entertaining movies in their own right. You simply need to detach yourself from expecting the movies to be true to the books to actually get any entertainment value out of. The expectations will get in the way of enjoying it for what it is, since you're always going to compare it to what you want to expect instead.

    If there's criticisms of the Hobbit, it should be on the merit of the movies as movies. The romantic subplot felt forced, the pacing was odd, and some of the acting was not on the level as LOTR. I think these are the kind of criticisms that are fine to have, since we're talking about the series as a series, and not just nitpicking how the changes aren't like how they were in the books.

    So yes, if they added scenes that made the movie felt weird and choppy, that's valid. And I haven't really dismissed any of those criticisms of WoT. I absolutely think WoT first 3 eps were very rushed and paced poorly. But the whole Gender changes? We haven't reached any level to see it actually being a problem, so it's literally a case of waiting and seeing if it will actually turn sour. If the series hasn't actually turned sour yet, I don't think we should immediately criticize it for being sour. Let's wait and see what the writers actually choose to do with it.
    The Hobbit movies were terrible. And while, yes, it's not irredeemable, it's not a good start to this so far, and I don't see a reason to have faith that this guy can expand on a relatively coherent world that took years to write, while also making a giant TV show. It just seems like a real long shot that this level of consistent deviation can work.

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But the adaptations were never beholden to sticking to any particular storyline, even if they did adapt a comic book directly.
    Because the Marvel movies were not adapting a specific story line but the character(s). This is a TV show adapting books with a specific story and lore. There is a difference even if you want to conflate the two. Core things should not be changed. Superman should always be an alien from Krypton that draws power from the sun if they are adapting his prime character. They shouldn't change it into a mutant exposed to green goo in the sewers of Lex Corp for the reason he has powers and still expect it to be adapting the "prime" character.

    Same with books. If you are adapting a book the core stuff should remain the same and not be changed just because. Even more so when the change is superficial and does nothing for the actual plot.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-11-30 at 12:38 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #920
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Because the Marvel movies were not adapting a specific story line but the character(s). This is a TV show adapting books with a specific story and lore. There is a difference even if you want to conflate the two.
    Except it's not?

    It's a loose adaptation that simply takes the characters and the overall plot (Dragon Reborn fights Dark One, saves the world) and is pretty much doing anything else in between. What exactly is the difference?

    The universes are different, no matter how much you want to argue that they *should* be the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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