[TV] The Wheel of Time

[rhorle]

Sure it does, because we don't know how closely all the characters and organizations are adhering to the prophecies, or how the genderization actually changes the end result of the Dragon Reborn being unveiled.

So we are told it is changed from an out of show perspective but we can't know that it is changed until the show tells us? Lmao. What is the point in discussing things if you won't accept cold hard facts about changes?

[bledgor]

You're right, you can make the claim. But claims are meaningless, numbers are all that matters. Despite all the fucking whining, GoT was one of the most watched shows in existence, The Witcher was a massive success for Netflix, and Wheel of Time is one of the most watched series releases so far on the platform - Amazon has said that it far exceeded expectations which had already been set at a high bar.

Nobody gives a shit what you and your buddies think except you and your buddies, unless it is costing them money. If you like the books, go read the fucking books. If you want a faithful series, cash up and go make one. It's hilarious to think that you think that the people who made the series AREN'T every bit as big Wheel of Time fans as you are, but that's another point entirely.

I wasn't the one who brought claims, you were and I was showing you a rebuttal. Nobody gives the shit of any one/small subsection of fans, but judging by the the various sources/media I have looked at a lot of people gave the show a chance (the high numbers you talk about) but have little to no interest in continuing to watch this bastard child of Rafe and Jordan (its called retention, and this show is going to fail there).

Maybe because I am not an egotistical nutjob that thinks not only can I adopt a series, but you know what, I am smarter than the author and let me arbitrary make changes to fit MY political/social agenda, not what made the story a cohesive and narrative respected piece of literature. Just because some people like to eat shit and call it chocolate doesn't mean I should. Usually if I am a fan of something I don't feel the need to constantly change pieces of the story to fit a social narrative, I let the piece I enjoy stand for itself. It's hilarious you think people that constantly change things to get social points give more than 2 fucks about the story they are turning into frankensteins monster.

[BeepBoo]

Like I said, I'm not going to involve myself more, but I wildly disagree with you about who's the supposed fan here.

People can be fans of different aspects.

I constantly tout the starwars universe as my favorite fandom. The concepts, ideas, and major factions behind things are _by far_ the coolest shit to ever walk the earth to me.

However, the movies, characters, etc... range from being fun but mediocre, to absolutely horrible and forgetful.

To that end, I can sympathize with both people who are fans of the ACTUAL story and people who just like the world built by WOT.
However, as someone who knows next to nothing about the series and never read the books, the show is a solid 5/10 that I'd expect on CW :lol:

And, after reading this thread and talking with my wife (who HAS read all the books), the obvious alterations and large steps from the books aren't ones I'd have liked if I was aware of this stuff ahead of time, either.

[Xath]

People can be fans of different aspects.

I constantly tout the starwars universe as my favorite fandom. The concepts, ideas, and major factions behind things are _by far_ the coolest shit to ever walk the earth to me.

However, the movies, characters, etc... range from being fun but mediocre, to absolutely horrible and forgetful.

To that end, I can sympathize with both people who are fans of the ACTUAL story and people who just like the world built by WOT.
However, as someone who knows next to nothing about the series and never read the books, the show is a solid 5/10 that I'd expect on CW :lol:

And, after reading this thread and talking with my wife (who HAS read all the books), the obvious alterations and large steps from the books aren't ones I'd have liked if I was aware of this stuff ahead of time, either.

This is exactly what I expected when I saw the casting and read the story leaks a cw show and not like early arrow but like late arrow

[Shadowferal]

Oh Light! How I would love to see the feedback if he did that. I wonder how many of the die hard defenders would cling on.

It would fit in with all the stuff he's been saying, that he wasn't following how the books went, that this was a different turn of the Wheel.

[Nynax]

It would fit in with all the stuff he's been saying, that he wasn't following how the books went, that this was a different turn of the Wheel.

Let's remake Lord of the Rings, but I feel that this time Frodo should give the Ring up to Boromir, which opens up the potential for a more interesting redemption ark for him and the people of Gondor. I also think it would be interesting if the last survivor of Niminor, heir to Isildur, was the rightful queen of Gondor. It would also help explain some of the distrust and tension between her and Boromir.

/s

[Rennadrel]

It would fit in with all the stuff he's been saying, that he wasn't following how the books went, that this was a different turn of the Wheel.

Then might as well not use the names of the same characters or try to recreate their likeness if that's the case.

[Xath]

Let's remake Lord of the Rings, but I feel that this time Frodo should give the Ring up to Boromir, which opens up the potential for a more interesting redemption ark for him and the people of Gondor. I also think it would be interesting if the last survivor of Niminor, heir to Isildur, was the rightful queen of Gondor. It would also help explain some of the distrust and tension between her and Boromir.

/s

don't forget that her and Boromir get it on

[Katchii]

Then might as well not use the names of the same characters or try to recreate their likeness if that's the case.

100% this.

If this is a different turning of the wheel, there's no reason to even use the same characters, locations, and basic story beats.

It's not a "different turning of the wheel" it's Rafe hijacking the story, written by Robert Jordan, to tell his own version of events. That's... a lot of things, but "good" is not one of them, IMO.

If he wanted to tell his own story in the WoT universe, just fucking do it, no need to practically plagiarize Jordans work to do that.

[Triceron]

So we are told it is changed from an out of show perspective but we can't know that it is changed until the show tells us? Lmao. What is the point in discussing things if you won't accept cold hard facts about changes?

My point is that the in-universe explanation for why it is different from the books has not been unveiled in the TV series. That is what can be discussed.

But otherwise, good job confirming that the TV series is not the Book series, as I've already said day 1.

- - - Updated - - -

100% this.

If this is a different turning of the wheel, there's no reason to even use the same characters, locations, and basic story beats.

It's not a "different turning of the wheel" it's Rafe hijacking the story, written by Robert Jordan, to tell his own version of events. That's... a lot of things, but "good" is not one of them, IMO.

If he wanted to tell his own story in the WoT universe, just fucking do it, no need to practically plagiarize Jordans work to do that.

How is that exactly different from any adaptation of any fantasy series to TV or film? Peter Jackson would have 'hijacked' LOTR and Dan and David 'hijacked' Game of Thrones all the same.

And if they're telling a different version of the story, then that's not what plagiarizing means...

[Katchii]

How is that exactly different from any adaptation of any fantasy series to TV or film? Peter Jackson would have 'hijacked' LOTR and Dan and David 'hijacked' Game of Thrones all the same.

I never said it was different?

But, to be fair, I've already addressed this in a previous post. The changes made to LotR and GoT didn't change the overarching story and narrative (as far as we know with GoT, but GRR Martin gave them the thumbs up with what they did so...). The ones they are hinting at making to WoT absolutely would change the overarching story. If they make a woman the dragon, especially Egwene or Nynaeve (which are the only two candidates according to the show) who had completely separate, deep, involved and integral story lines unto themselves in the books, it completely changes the overall narrative.

And if they're telling a different version of the story, then that's not what plagiarizing means...

I don't know what the actual word is and plagiarized was the only one that came close enough. Rafe is taking all of the characters, their names, their identities, the locations for things, etc... straight out of the books Robert Jordan wrote, and using all of those things that he didn't come up with to tell his version of the story. If it's not straight up plagiarism, it's another version of stealing someone else's work.

[Triceron]

I never said it was different?

But, to be fair, I've already addressed this in a previous post. The changes made to LotR and GoT didn't change the overarching story and narrative (as far as we know with GoT, but GRR Martin gave them the thumbs up with what they did so...). The ones they are hinting at making to WoT absolutely would change the overarching story. If they make a woman the dragon, especially Egwene or Nynaeve (which are the only two candidates according to the show) who had completely separate, deep, involved and integral story lines unto themselves in the books, it completely changes the overall narrative.

But that's not what they're doing.

You admit that if the plot changed then we have a problem. But the plot isn't actually changing. The Dragon is not going to be female, even if the prophecy is changed. The overall narrative remains the same. They aren't actually changing who the Dragon is, as far as we know.

We (as book readers) know who the show is setting up to be the Dragon Reborn, and that major plot point will likely remain unchanged.

I don't know what the actual word is and plagiarized was the only one that came close enough.

The literal word you were looking for was adapted. Meaning taking something and changing it to fit a new environment. Thus the meaning of Adaptation, and why it's important to distinguish that no TV or film version will be the same as the book. Even close adaptations like the new Dune movie will forever be Villeneuve's Dune, and not Herbert's Dune. Changes are inevitable, which is why these different versions are always regarded as separate. There's literally no reason to expect it to be the same especially in the face of changes that are already existing. This is not Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time even if the prophecy and the character backstories and the races and genders of the characters remained exact as they were in the book. It would still be the show creator's vision of how to adapt the story to a new medium.

If you consider it stealing the works of others, then you're blatantly wrong since the IP was properly liscenced, legally, with creative liberties given to the creators as they please. And they aren't using the story without credit, they're creating their own version of the story, which is effectively creating something new. That is the opposite of stealing.

---

Taking a look at your statements again, it sounds like you want to say that they've bastardized the story. And that I would agree, if that was what you were trying to actually say.

[Biomega]

But the plot isn't actually changing. The Dragon is not going to be female, even if the prophecy is changed. The overall narrative remains the same. They aren't actually changing who the Dragon is, as far as we know.

That, to me, would already be reason enough to give them the biggest middle finger of all time. Changing major plot points is bad enough, changing them FOR NO REASON is worse. Not to mention how incredibly misogynistic it is to pretend a woman could be the chosen one when you know it'll really be the man all along. That's not just tone-deaf, it's downright insulting.

I'd hate it if they changed the Dragon Reborn to be Egwene; but pretending it could be her when they know there is really no chance of it actually happening is even worse.

[Triceron]

That, to me, would already be reason enough to give them the biggest middle finger of all time. Changing major plot points is bad enough, changing them FOR NO REASON is worse

They have reasons to change it, it's just not reasons that you agree with. That's all there is to say here.

And I've been clear that I've not been in agreement with the show runners on changing it either, but that's a whole different thing than saying 'there's no reason for the change!' when there absolutely is a reason for it. We don't have to agree with the changes, but the reasons for them existing are pretty apparent considering the platform it's on and the nature of modern TV shows made to be more appealing to wider demographics.

[Biomega]

They have reasons to change it, it's just not reasons that you agree with. That's all there is to say here.

I'm glad we have you to point out opinions are subjective, otherwise there'd be chaos. That's all there is to say here.

[Triceron]

I'm glad we have you to point out opinions are subjective, otherwise there'd be chaos. That's all there is to say here.

You're welcome

[Katchii]

But that's not what they're doing.

You admit that if the plot changed then we have a problem. But the plot isn't actually changing. The Dragon is not going to be female, even if the prophecy is changed. The overall narrative remains the same. They aren't actually changing who the Dragon is, as far as we know.

We (as book readers) know who the show is setting up to be the Dragon Reborn, and that major plot point will likely remain unchanged.

We don't know whether they're changing it or not, yet. To that extent. They're certainly hinting at it with the latest episode.

The literal word you were looking for was adapted.

No it's not, I meant the stealing part, at least in principal if not actually legally (just because it's legal doesn't make it OK or acceptable, IMO). Riding the coattails of someone else' success, etc...But that really only applies if they change the story significantly, which is what Rafe seems to be implying they're doing whrn he says "this is another turning of the wheel."

If the overarching narrative and plot stay the same, yes, I'll call it an adaptation. Even if it's a poor one.

This is not Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time even if the prophecy and the character backstories and the races and genders of the characters remained exact as they were in the book. It would still be the show creator's vision of how to adapt the story to a new medium.

Yes, it is. They call it out at the start of every episode. This isn't the Wheel of Time story by Rafe Judkins. It's the Wheel of Time story, written by Robert Jordan, produced by Rafe Judkins.

If you consider it stealing the works of others, then you're blatantly wrong since the IP was properly liscenced, legally, with creative liberties given to the creators as they please. And they aren't using the story without credit, they're creating their own version of the story, which is effectively creating something new. That is the opposite of stealing.
---
Taking a look at your statements again, it sounds like you want to say that they've bastardized the story. And that I would agree, if that was what you were trying to actually say.

You know what I mean by those statements. I am not speaking about the legality of it.

[Triceron]

No it's not, I meant the stealing part, at least in principal if not actually legally (just because it's legal doesn't make it OK or acceptable, IMO). Riding the coattails of someone else' success, etc...But that really only applies if they change the story significantly, which is what Rafe seems to be implying they're doing whrn he says "this is another turning of the wheel."

If the overarching narrative and plot stay the same, yes, I'll call it an adaptation.

It's an adaptation whether you choose to call it that or not.

Just as Blade Runner does not follow the plot of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, but is still considered an adaptation regardless. This isn't something that is subjectively defined. What you can do is choose to define it as being a true, loose, good or poor adaptation, but it remains an adaptation no matter what.

As I said, the word you seem to be looking for is bastardization.

Yes, it is. They call it out at the start of every episode. This isn't the Wheel of Time story by Rafe Judkins. It's the Wheel of Time TV story, written by Robert Jordan, produced by Rafe Judkins.

Based on the Wheel of Time series written by Robert Jordan. Developed by Rafe Judkins. Written for TV by *insert writer of the episode*

If you're going to choose to be ignorant, at least don't display it publicly for it to be easily called out. There's no bait and switch here when it's clear and plain fucking English. The TV series isn't written by Robert Jordan.

You know what I mean by those statements. I am not speaking about the legality of it.

You're not speaking of anything when you're literally using the wrong words and seem to stick to wanting to continue to use the wrong words to describe what you actually want to say...

[Kharadin]

Show's pretty solid so far. I want the next 4 episodes now please.

[Xath]

Show's pretty solid so far. I want the next 4 episodes now please.

I suppose if you like terrible color grading ren fair level costumes and butchering of good works of literature it's decent.