[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Shadowferal]

I don't think that's the case. And it seems to be doing quite well critically.

So did the "Last Jedi." What a monumental joke that was.

[Kharadin]

So did the "Last Jedi." What a monumental joke that was.

Yeah, it made bank too.

[Geckoo]

Idk I'm waiting for it every week.

And it's not a medieval setting, it's a post-apocalyptic future Earth setting with high fantasy (i.e. magic) and fuedal europe elements. A cataclysmic event that causes mass immigration from population centers can easily be argued as a good reason for many parts of the world after such an event being a genetic melting pot.

When i say medieval fantasy setting it might just be me using an unnecesary adjective (mostly because i'm not an english speaking native), i guess that just saying fantasy or high fantasy would be enough since i wasn't obviously talking about france in the year 1123.

As for genetic melting pots, sure, that cataclysmic event coud cause mass immigration, but how many years have passed since that event took place and for how many generation have those different ethnicities been mixed and mixing with each other? That small town could only make sense if all the families just moved in from other places (and we could ask the same questions about those places), as someone pointed out, even the accents are different. That kind of town in that kind of place, as it is described in the show, would have a more or less similar people talking in a similar way.

But i have to insist that this is not an issue with diversity, but an issue with how bad it is done and how this tendency in the end has a negative effect on the show. The fact that certain character from a show based on a book has a different race is not as relevant as some people believe, it's usually something that only fans from the book notice and can be angry about, but for the majority it's just their first time knowing that character, so it's going to be okay... unless the whole thing is a mess that makes no sense, as it happens with this show.

How do you know that? Do you have some training in genetics/epigenetics and population dynamics or is this just your own intuition/common sense?

We have real examples of countries that have historically been melting pots. I'm not talking about looking at present day England or US, but at a place like Spain over the past 2000-3000 years with several cultures that at some point lived there, mixed with whoever was already living there and have kept living and mixing with whoever came after. There is diversity of course, but not to the point that you could tell from where their ancestors came from and certainly not speaking with a strong accent from a totally different place.

[Kharadin]

I don't think there's any IRL analogue for what took place in the few thousand years before the beginning of EotW, the breaking causing mass migration (from very dense population centers) and then the societal ebbing and flowing due to the Trolloc wars and whatever else.

The accents being iffy I can get on board with, those are a bit all over the place although it just doesn't bother me. I think having darker skinned actors playing half the cast and then having Mat and the other more background characters being lighter skinned seems totally reasonable to me. With Rand being the obvious and intentional outlier.

[Xath]

Yeah, it made bank too.

It didn't though. It basically crashed the star wars toy market which has never recovered and merchandising is where the real money in star wars is.

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I don't think there's any IRL analogue for what took place in the few thousand years before the beginning of EotW, the breaking causing mass migration (from very dense population centers) and then the societal ebbing and flowing due to the Trolloc wars and whatever else.

The accents being iffy I can get on board with, those are a bit all over the place although it just doesn't bother me. I think having darker skinned actors playing half the cast and then having Mat and the other more background characters being lighter skinned seems totally reasonable to me. With Rand being the obvious and intentional outlier.

Then you need to read the books. All of them look similar two rivers people have a look basically a farmers tan compared to most of Andor it's close enough that only Rand's hair and eyes really stand out until Elaidia rolls up his sleeve and it's revealed his untanned skin is super pale. He doesn't stand out outside of his hair and eyes which are both usually not focuses/covered what makes him really stand out is his height where he is significantly taller than Perrin who is already large. Really this just isn't wheel of time it's rafe makes his version of cw of time.

[Kharadin]

I mean in the books the Two Rivers lot are just described as dark of hair and dark of eye, and indeed that's why Rand is the only outlier. And within that description the rest of the cast falls easily. I'm not really sure what your issue is.

[Katchii]

What makes you think that?

How do you know that? Do you have some training in genetics/epigenetics and population dynamics or is this just your own intuition/common sense?

I mean in the books the Two Rivers lot are just described as dark of hair and dark of eye, and indeed that's why Rand is the only outlier. And within that description the rest of the cast falls easily. I'm not really sure what your issue is.

You contradicted yourself here.

First you argue about the homogenization of the Two Rivers somehow not being genetically possible over 1000 years, and then go on to state precisely that the two rivers has a homogeneous population with Rand being the only outlier.

Which is it?

[Kharadin]

You contradicted yourself here.

First you argue about the homogenization of the Two Rivers somehow not being genetically possible over 1000 years, and then go on to state precisely that the two rivers has a homogeneous population with Rand being the only outlier.

Which is it?

I'd disagree that generalising the inhabitants to "dark of hair and dark of eye" is any more homogeneous than we see on the screen, which is my point.

[Katchii]

I'd disagree that generalising the inhabitants to "dark of hair and dark of eye" is any more homogeneous than we see on the screen, which is my point.

That's being a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

If Rand is the only outlier, that means the rest of the population is homogeneous. Especially considering how detailed the descriptions for the other races are in the books. It's obvious the description for Tow Rivers is intended to mean they're the same "race" and not just a mix of several races that all bear the same generic description of "dark of hair and dark of eye."

I'm not saying anything bad about how they portrayed it in the show, just to clarify.

[Biomega]

See, the skin color thing is a detail where I *am* comfortable saying "you know what, it doesn't matter". Does it technically lose a bit of world-building? Sure. But nothing that's actually that relevant to the plot. The only thing that IS relevant is that Rand is markedly Aiel. As long as you can distinguish that properly - since that detail definitely matters for the plot - how the rest of the people look is largely irrelevant to the larger story.

[Kharadin]

That's being a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

If Rand is the only outlier, that means the rest of the population is homogeneous. Especially considering how detailed the descriptions for the other races are in the books. It's obvious the description for Tow Rivers is intended to mean they're the same "race" and not just a mix of several races that all bear the same generic description of "dark of hair and dark of eye."

I'm not saying anything bad about how they portrayed it in the show, just to clarify.

I mean I guess that's fair enough I just don't agree. I don't think it's intended to mean anything other than what it says. They're dark of hair and eye, and Rand is a tall white boy with blue/grey eyes and red hair, thus he stands out. Within those bounds, I think the casting of the main ensemble fits just fine. That being said, Tam's a bit lighter in pretty much every respect than I'd expect since sans his height he could believably be Rand's daddy in the show which is a bit scuffed.

[Shadowferal]

Yeah, it made bank too.

So did Transformers.

[Kharadin]

See, the skin color thing is a detail where I *am* comfortable saying "you know what, it doesn't matter". Does it technically lose a bit of world-building? Sure. But nothing that's actually that relevant to the plot. The only thing that IS relevant is that Rand is markedly Aiel. As long as you can distinguish that properly - since that detail definitely matters for the plot - how the rest of the people look is largely irrelevant to the larger story.

We all know the real tragedy is that Moiraine isn't a 5'4" Cairhienin tiny lady. Why can't Rosamund Pike just be shorter >

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So did Transformers.

Yeah and they made tonnes of movies. I'm down with that, gimme one or two seasons per book daddy Bezos.

[Biomega]

we all know the real tragedy is that moiraine isn't a 5'4" cairhienin tiny lady. Why can't rosamund pike just be shorter >

5'9" != 5'4" it's not like the book cancel the show now WAAAAAAAAH

[Kharadin]

5'9" != 5'4" it's not like the book cancel the show now WAAAAAAAAH

I can't wait to see all the tiny Aiel, either.

[Katchii]

I mean I guess that's fair enough I just don't agree. I don't think it's intended to mean anything other than what it says. They're dark of hair and eye, and Rand is a tall white boy with blue/grey eyes and red hair, thus he stands out. Within those bounds, I think the casting of the main ensemble fits just fine. That being said, Tam's a bit lighter in pretty much every respect than I'd expect since sans his height he could believably be Rand's daddy in the show which is a bit scuffed.

So you're saying you honestly believe the Two Rivers, a geographically isolated location that is explicitly stated to be made up almost exclusively from the descendants of Manetheren, a single nation, is just a hodge podge of multiple races from all over the world that all just so happen share the "dark of eye and dark of hair" description?

Seems odd to me.

I'm not debating the description you're referencing, but based on everything else we know from the books about both the Two Rivers and the rest of the world, the idea that the Two Rivers is made up of many different races from around the world that all just so happen to share the "dark of hair and dark of eye" description seems willfully ignorant to me.

Edit: Sorry, this comes of as more condescending than I really meant it to be. I'm honestly just asking questions and trying to clarify your view. No disrespect intended.

[Biomega]

I can't wait to see all the tiny Aiel, either.

I can't wait for them to go "desert people? MUST BE AFRICAN/MIDDLE-EASTERN ACTORS" because you just know it.

[Kharadin]

So you're saying you honestly believe the Two Rivers, a geographically isolated location that is explicitly stated to be made up almost exclusively from the descendants of Manetheren, a single nation, is just a hodge podge of multiple races from all over the world that all just so happen share the "dark of eye and dark of hair" description?

Seems odd to me.

I'm not debating the description you're referencing, but based on everything else we know from the books about both the Two Rivers and the rest of the world, the idea that the Two Rivers is made up of many different races from around the world that all just so happen to share the "dark of hair and dark of eye" description seems willfully ignorant to me.

No, I don't think it's a hodge podge of multiple races from all over the world. I believe there will be some level of homogeneity but within that expectation I think what we see on the screen is a pretty believable representation.

I mean, unless "many different races" accurately describes what you think lies between Mat, Perrin and the main girls. Then I guess we're just arguing semantics and my answer is just "yes".

You could also argue it's wilfully ignorant to get up in arms about the race of the characters that, barring a few exceptions (Rand's heritage and a few cultural inserts from present-day Earth etc.), RJ was intentionally vague in his description of because race wasn't really a thing that was ever relevant to the story he was telling.

I believe I take the descriptions in the spirit they were offered, vague but sufficient for me to build my own mental images and keep my disbelief suspended.

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I can't wait for them to go "desert people? MUST BE AFRICAN/MIDDLE-EASTERN ACTORS" because you just know it.

If I don't get to see some sunburnt, giant-ass Irishmen I'm gonna riot.

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Edit: Sorry, this comes of as more condescending than I really meant it to be. I'm honestly just asking questions and trying to clarify your view. No disrespect intended.

Don't worry, no offense taken, tbh outside of battling on the internet with people who refuse to enjoy the show because of the casting diversity I don't even think about it too much, so I can see how I come off as a kinda half-assed thrown-together view because I'm kinda thinking about it and making it up as I go along.

I watched the show so far and I loved it, and the casting caused no immersion-breaking for me so I'm just trying to verbalise why I think that's the case for me and maybe not for others.

[Mace]

So you're saying you honestly believe the Two Rivers, a geographically isolated location that is explicitly stated to be made up almost exclusively from the descendants of Manetheren, a single nation, is just a hodge podge of multiple races from all over the world that all just so happen share the "dark of eye and dark of hair" description?

Seems odd to me.

I'm not debating the description you're referencing, but based on everything else we know from the books about both the Two Rivers and the rest of the world, the idea that the Two Rivers is made up of many different races from around the world that all just so happen to share the "dark of hair and dark of eye" description seems willfully ignorant to me.

Edit: Sorry, this comes of as more condescending than I really meant it to be. I'm honestly just asking questions and trying to clarify your view. No disrespect intended.

They fucked that one up , but then most people today don’t understand racial homogeny because tv lies for diversity sake.

Diversity is a great thing and definitely needed. But when you do a period drama or a fantasy world that has a national history that strongly indicates racial homogeny it trivialises it to change it for the sake of diversity.

Plenty of opportunity fir non white characters and diversity in the story. But if they failed to give diversity they would have come under the oh so feared criticism of twitteratti

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But let’s not pretend as if the all white shows of the past weren’t full of flaws.

Irritated as I maybe by the change in ethnicities of the main characters, there is still a lot of good things about the show.

It’s just not as good as the books. But it’s still entettaining as a well polished decent but standard fantasy.

[Katchii]

SNIP

Agree to disagree then.

Don't worry, no offense taken, tbh outside of battling on the internet with people who refuse to enjoy the show because of the casting diversity I don't even think about it too much, so I can see how I come off as a kinda half-assed thrown-together view because I'm kinda thinking about it and making it up as I go along.

I watched the show so far and I loved it, and the casting caused no immersion-breaking for me so I'm just trying to verbalise why I think that's the case for me and maybe not for others.

When I first heard about them I got a bit scuffed because it didn't match up with my own mental image, but I very quickly realized that's a pretty ridiculous take. So long as the actors play the character well, that's all that matters...for the most part.

So far, I've seen nothing that makes me disappointed in the acting. I'm still up in the air as far as the show as a whole, because of some of the changes they're making and hinting at, but up to this point they haven't been so egregious that it's ruining my enjoyment of the TV adaptation. I'm skeptical, but still more entertained than disappointed at this point.