1. #1021
    Stood in the Fire
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    Nynaeve doing an AoE Full Restore heal without a shred of training was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

    Damn shame. The production value is clearly really high but if the show isn't going to take its source material seriously then it's not worth watching for me personally.

  2. #1022
    It's an average fantasy show. Despite the effort to promote it as something else... it is not. You can find a bunch of similar shows across all platforms, they are okay to kill time, but not the kind of thing you are waiting for each week. I haven't read the books so i don't know how good or bad it is as an adaptation, but it didn't take too much to guess that it's not very good at that either.

    When it comes to introducing more diversity/representation there are some genres that work better than others and a medieval fantasy setting is not the kind of setting that works well with that precisely because we have some knowledge of how a medieval society, even on a fantasy setting, would work. This means that an isolated village on a remote area is not very likely to have the kind of diversity that the show depicts and by no means does this mean that there is no place for diversity, but it needs to make sense within the context of that medieval fantasy setting. Anyway, it's certainly not the main reason why the show is bad, but it is one of the reasons.
    "Mastery Haste will fix it."

  3. #1023
    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    It's an average fantasy show. Despite the effort to promote it as something else... it is not. You can find a bunch of similar shows across all platforms, they are okay to kill time, but not the kind of thing you are waiting for each week. I haven't read the books so i don't know how good or bad it is as an adaptation, but it didn't take too much to guess that it's not very good at that either.

    When it comes to introducing more diversity/representation there are some genres that work better than others and a medieval fantasy setting is not the kind of setting that works well with that precisely because we have some knowledge of how a medieval society, even on a fantasy setting, would work. This means that an isolated village on a remote area is not very likely to have the kind of diversity that the show depicts and by no means does this mean that there is no place for diversity, but it needs to make sense within the context of that medieval fantasy setting. Anyway, it's certainly not the main reason why the show is bad, but it is one of the reasons.
    Idk I'm waiting for it every week.

    And it's not a medieval setting, it's a post-apocalyptic future Earth setting with high fantasy (i.e. magic) and fuedal europe elements. A cataclysmic event that causes mass immigration from population centers can easily be argued as a good reason for many parts of the world after such an event being a genetic melting pot.

  4. #1024
    The story is meant to take place three thousand years after the apocalypse. Manetheren fell a thousand years before the story.

    I think a thousand years is enough time for an isolated backwater that the books make clear has close to no contact with the outside world beyond the occasional trader to end up fairly homogeneous.

  5. #1025
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    The story is meant to take place three thousand years after the apocalypse. Manetheren fell a thousand years before the story.

    I think a thousand years is enough time for an isolated backwater that the books make clear has close to no contact with the outside world beyond the occasional trader to end up fairly homogeneous.
    What makes you think that?

  6. #1026
    Bloodsail Admiral Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Well, at the very least they would all speak with the same accent.

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    What makes you think that?
    For a thousand years practically no one has entered the two rivers. That Tam Al'Thor not just left but came back with a foreign wife was a major thing.

    So for a thousand years they only had themselves to breed with. The only way to have such racial distinctiveness in a fairly small population with out outsiders coming in would be for them to practice racial segregation when it came to marriage.

  8. #1028
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    For a thousand years practically no one has entered the two rivers. That Tam Al'Thor not just left but came back with a foreign wife was a major thing.

    So for a thousand years they only had themselves to breed with. The only way to have such racial distinctiveness in a fairly small population with out outsiders coming in would be for them to practice racial segregation when it came to marriage.
    How do you know that? Do you have some training in genetics/epigenetics and population dynamics or is this just your own intuition/common sense?

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    I don't think that's the case. And it seems to be doing quite well critically.
    So did the "Last Jedi." What a monumental joke that was.

  10. #1030
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    So did the "Last Jedi." What a monumental joke that was.
    Yeah, it made bank too.

  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    Idk I'm waiting for it every week.

    And it's not a medieval setting, it's a post-apocalyptic future Earth setting with high fantasy (i.e. magic) and fuedal europe elements. A cataclysmic event that causes mass immigration from population centers can easily be argued as a good reason for many parts of the world after such an event being a genetic melting pot.
    When i say medieval fantasy setting it might just be me using an unnecesary adjective (mostly because i'm not an english speaking native), i guess that just saying fantasy or high fantasy would be enough since i wasn't obviously talking about france in the year 1123.

    As for genetic melting pots, sure, that cataclysmic event coud cause mass immigration, but how many years have passed since that event took place and for how many generation have those different ethnicities been mixed and mixing with each other? That small town could only make sense if all the families just moved in from other places (and we could ask the same questions about those places), as someone pointed out, even the accents are different. That kind of town in that kind of place, as it is described in the show, would have a more or less similar people talking in a similar way.

    But i have to insist that this is not an issue with diversity, but an issue with how bad it is done and how this tendency in the end has a negative effect on the show. The fact that certain character from a show based on a book has a different race is not as relevant as some people believe, it's usually something that only fans from the book notice and can be angry about, but for the majority it's just their first time knowing that character, so it's going to be okay... unless the whole thing is a mess that makes no sense, as it happens with this show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    How do you know that? Do you have some training in genetics/epigenetics and population dynamics or is this just your own intuition/common sense?
    We have real examples of countries that have historically been melting pots. I'm not talking about looking at present day England or US, but at a place like Spain over the past 2000-3000 years with several cultures that at some point lived there, mixed with whoever was already living there and have kept living and mixing with whoever came after. There is diversity of course, but not to the point that you could tell from where their ancestors came from and certainly not speaking with a strong accent from a totally different place.
    "Mastery Haste will fix it."

  12. #1032
    I don't think there's any IRL analogue for what took place in the few thousand years before the beginning of EotW, the breaking causing mass migration (from very dense population centers) and then the societal ebbing and flowing due to the Trolloc wars and whatever else.

    The accents being iffy I can get on board with, those are a bit all over the place although it just doesn't bother me. I think having darker skinned actors playing half the cast and then having Mat and the other more background characters being lighter skinned seems totally reasonable to me. With Rand being the obvious and intentional outlier.
    Last edited by Kharadin; 2021-12-01 at 12:55 PM.

  13. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    Yeah, it made bank too.
    It didn't though. It basically crashed the star wars toy market which has never recovered and merchandising is where the real money in star wars is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    I don't think there's any IRL analogue for what took place in the few thousand years before the beginning of EotW, the breaking causing mass migration (from very dense population centers) and then the societal ebbing and flowing due to the Trolloc wars and whatever else.

    The accents being iffy I can get on board with, those are a bit all over the place although it just doesn't bother me. I think having darker skinned actors playing half the cast and then having Mat and the other more background characters being lighter skinned seems totally reasonable to me. With Rand being the obvious and intentional outlier.
    Then you need to read the books. All of them look similar two rivers people have a look basically a farmers tan compared to most of Andor it's close enough that only Rand's hair and eyes really stand out until Elaidia rolls up his sleeve and it's revealed his untanned skin is super pale. He doesn't stand out outside of his hair and eyes which are both usually not focuses/covered what makes him really stand out is his height where he is significantly taller than Perrin who is already large. Really this just isn't wheel of time it's rafe makes his version of cw of time.

  14. #1034
    I mean in the books the Two Rivers lot are just described as dark of hair and dark of eye, and indeed that's why Rand is the only outlier. And within that description the rest of the cast falls easily. I'm not really sure what your issue is.

  15. #1035
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    What makes you think that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    How do you know that? Do you have some training in genetics/epigenetics and population dynamics or is this just your own intuition/common sense?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    I mean in the books the Two Rivers lot are just described as dark of hair and dark of eye, and indeed that's why Rand is the only outlier. And within that description the rest of the cast falls easily. I'm not really sure what your issue is.
    You contradicted yourself here.

    First you argue about the homogenization of the Two Rivers somehow not being genetically possible over 1000 years, and then go on to state precisely that the two rivers has a homogeneous population with Rand being the only outlier.

    Which is it?

  16. #1036
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    You contradicted yourself here.

    First you argue about the homogenization of the Two Rivers somehow not being genetically possible over 1000 years, and then go on to state precisely that the two rivers has a homogeneous population with Rand being the only outlier.

    Which is it?
    I'd disagree that generalising the inhabitants to "dark of hair and dark of eye" is any more homogeneous than we see on the screen, which is my point.

  17. #1037
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    I'd disagree that generalising the inhabitants to "dark of hair and dark of eye" is any more homogeneous than we see on the screen, which is my point.
    That's being a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

    If Rand is the only outlier, that means the rest of the population is homogeneous. Especially considering how detailed the descriptions for the other races are in the books. It's obvious the description for Tow Rivers is intended to mean they're the same "race" and not just a mix of several races that all bear the same generic description of "dark of hair and dark of eye."

    I'm not saying anything bad about how they portrayed it in the show, just to clarify.

  18. #1038
    See, the skin color thing is a detail where I *am* comfortable saying "you know what, it doesn't matter". Does it technically lose a bit of world-building? Sure. But nothing that's actually that relevant to the plot. The only thing that IS relevant is that Rand is markedly Aiel. As long as you can distinguish that properly - since that detail definitely matters for the plot - how the rest of the people look is largely irrelevant to the larger story.

  19. #1039
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    That's being a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

    If Rand is the only outlier, that means the rest of the population is homogeneous. Especially considering how detailed the descriptions for the other races are in the books. It's obvious the description for Tow Rivers is intended to mean they're the same "race" and not just a mix of several races that all bear the same generic description of "dark of hair and dark of eye."

    I'm not saying anything bad about how they portrayed it in the show, just to clarify.
    I mean I guess that's fair enough I just don't agree. I don't think it's intended to mean anything other than what it says. They're dark of hair and eye, and Rand is a tall white boy with blue/grey eyes and red hair, thus he stands out. Within those bounds, I think the casting of the main ensemble fits just fine. That being said, Tam's a bit lighter in pretty much every respect than I'd expect since sans his height he could believably be Rand's daddy in the show which is a bit scuffed.

  20. #1040
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    Yeah, it made bank too.
    So did Transformers.

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