[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Biomega]

They fucked that one up , but then most people today don’t understand racial homogeny because tv lies for diversity sake.

Diversity is a great thing and definitely needed. But when you do a period drama or a fantasy world that has a national history that strongly indicates racial homogeny it trivialises it to change it for the sake of diversity.

This is a tricky thing. For one, you can quite legitimately ask where to draw the line - if you're fine with someone being brunette instead of blonde, why aren't you fine with dark skin instead of light skin, for example. Where are you drawing the line? Physiological differences between humans are fact - grouping them into "races" is largely a construct. So who gets to draw the circles and say who's in and who's out, and why? Isn't suspension of disbelief exactly for such circumstances, putting performance over accuracy?

Then again, there are absolutely cases where things like skin color MATTER. Some are fairly clear-cut - a white MLK would take so much away it wouldn't work. Others are more debatable - what about a black Hamlet? Not historically accurate of course, but is that important to the role? The edge cases are very difficult to decide, because - again - a lot of the distinctions are given fairly arbitrary weight. A white Jesus, when he's a Levantine Jew? Why does that work more than a black Hamlet - and should it? And so on.

Which also brings up a whole slew of historical biases. Because race as we understand it is a fairly recent concept, we tend to project our understanding back onto historical settings. Ancient Rome, for example, was very likely quite racially diverse. Why aren't black people mentioned a lot? Because people then probably didn't care as much about skin color as we tend to think they would have. We think of Cleopatra as "Egyptian" - she was a ruler of Egypt, but her lineage is straight from Greece, not from Africa. We tend to forget that nation states, too, are a very recent concept.

All this makes it really tricky to find the right angle for representations both fictional and historic. You want to balance modern-day sensibilities, aesthetics and iconography, historicity, and so on - often an impossible task to perfectly solve. So where do you skew things, how, and why? Is a skew towards more diversity in casting "more important" than historical accuracy? If so, why? If not, why not? Is historical accuracy "more important" than the aesthetics of the performance? How do you even determine that?

It's very complicated, and can't JUST be reduced to "we do this or Twitter will have our heads". Not that there isn't plenty of pandering and ham-fisted shoehorning going around, that should be rightly criticized. But it isn't always as simple as people make it out to be, on any side of the issue.

For me personally, the key is always rooted in the narrative above all else. What does the PLOT demand? Would this not work if a character is a different gender, race, whatever? If it changes, how does it change? What does this mean for the rest of the plot, all the contingencies, the world-building? There's no perfect answer, and no simple scale to go by.

The WoT situation in Two Rivers is kind of a good example. Canonically it's supposed to be the remnant of a previous empire - but how homogenous was that empire? Many centuries are a long time, and unless there's serious impediment (like an ocean) people WILL mix over time. Which might mean a new homogeneity, or might mean more diversity. But what does the PLOT say? These are "one people", with a certain pride and history - okay, but "people" doesn't equal "race", and you could have all sorts of people only vaguely similar with considerable leeway. What actually MATTERS for the plot? That Rand stands out, and that he belongs to a group that's not just geographically but also CULTURALLY isolated - that's often a stronger isolating factor than geography (see e.g. with hermetic religious communities like the Amish). So it makes sense to pay attention to race there, doesn't it? Yes and no. Because cultural isolation also means culture is more important than race - see e.g. the Dune series where culture as an identifier has practically supplanted race entirely. So how do you deal with that in a visual medium like film? Do you double down on visual markers and extend them to physiology? Or do you stick to cultural identifiers, and simply visualize them (e.g. distinct clothing, a special color, etc.)? In Rand's case I think race makes sense because he's isolated from the cultural aspects - marking him as an Aiel culturally doesn't work if he grows up in a different culture. It has to be something inherent, like appearance, if he's to be marked without actively participating in that marking. The plot has an actual tether to appearance here, and it makes sense to pay attention to it as a result. But that's not always the case, and each instance comes with its own expression, contingencies, and often complex considerations about how to represent it in both visuals and narrative.

[mickybrighteyes]

We all know the real tragedy is that Moiraine isn't a 5'4" Cairhienin tiny lady. Why can't Rosamund Pike just be shorter >

The real tragedy is what they did to Tam's Sword....

What it should be: here

What they did: here

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The WoT situation in Two Rivers is kind of a good example. Canonically it's supposed to be the remnant of a previous empire

Two rivers is ONE singular town that's relatively isolated from the rest of the realms across the continent and a backwater town at that.

As for how many cneturies? it's actually over 2000 years since Menetheren's Fall by the time the story's events begin. I want to say the story is in something regarded as the "New Era" and nearly 1000 years into that era while Menetheren fell 'early' on after the breaking with a good thousand years between it's fall and the start of the New Era.

[Shadowferal]

Yeah and they made tonnes of movies. I'm down with that, gimme one or two seasons per book daddy Bezos.

And they were just as good...

[bledgor]

"various sources/media"
85% amalgamated critic rating, 80% user rating

Like I said; people have tunnel vision and see what they want, but numbers don't. The numbers simply don't support what you are saying.

The reality is that the actual bubble is people like you on internet forums like this who think that social progression ruins things, when most people just don't give a shit.

Okay try reading my message again, I was saying the sources show a heavy initial engagment, the 85/80, but how long would that hold as they continue to bastardize the story? I guess you really don't care if the quality of things given to you is complete shit. I also said nothing about social progress, I just don't like when some idiotic producer thinks he knows better than a renowned author and butchers the content to get across HIS message (which is not he masses btw, even if every single member of one party agreed, it wouldn't be the majority).

[Katchii]

Two rivers is ONE singular town that's relatively isolated from the rest of the realms across the continent and a backwater town at that.

It's actually not one town.

It's a fairly large swath of land with 4 towns and quite a few independent farms.

No estimates in the book for population numbers, but with that much land, that many towns and farms and that much time since the destruction it's at least a few thousand.

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Two_Rivers

[Kharadin]

snip

Fair enough, honestly I'm just hyped to see my favourite book series finally becoming a TV show so they'd really have to fuck it up to turn me off it. That being said, I don't think I'm even wilfully ignoring anything I might be critical of if the source material were something else, all the changes I've seen seem pretty reasonable given the move from book to TV and I've enjoyed every episode so far and ep 4 alone I enjoyed more than even some of the best GoT episodes.

That said, I'm sure there's some cognitive bias going on that's making me impervious to some of the valid criticisms of the show, I just don't think the casting and diversity therein is one of them.

Just get me to Dumai's Wells please daddy bezos.

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snip

Oh yeah, that's actually one that upset me a little, I coulda got down with most sword styles but I'm 100% sure Tam's sword wasn't described even close to a katana. I didn't imagine it quite like your image but that's very close to what I had in mind, just a pretty no-frills kinda falchion. I also imagined the heron mark on the crossguard but now that I think about it I reckon I just head canon-ed that because I think the books do say it tends to be on the hilt.

[Katchii]

Fair enough, honestly I'm just hyped to see my favourite book series finally becoming a TV show so they'd really have to fuck it up to turn me off it. That being said, I don't think I'm even wilfully ignoring anything I might be critical of if the source material were something else, all the changes I've seen seem pretty reasonable given the move from book to TV and I've enjoyed every episode so far and ep 4 alone I enjoyed more than even some of the best GoT episodes.

That said, I'm sure there's some cognitive bias going on that's making me impervious to some of the valid criticisms of the show, I just don't think the casting and diversity therein is one of them.

Just get me to Dumai's Wells please daddy bezos.

I'm still waiting to see. If they don't change the roles of the main characters fill (like who the actual Dragon Reborn is), I'll be able to roll with a lot of the changes they make. If they do, I doubt the show would last long enough to be able to film Dumai's Wells.

[mickybrighteyes]

It's actually not one town.

It's a fairly large swath of land with 4 towns and quite a few independent farms.

I think that's a VERY generous description for size given it's far smaller than Tarwin's Gap on any map. And despite the foot notes labeling multiple locations i wouldn't call them all 'towns' (your link doesn't even list 4 towns.... it lists a "Small Town" and 3 Villages which should imply certain population levels given English usage of the settlement words used.

[Kharadin]

I'm still waiting to see. If they don't change the roles of the main characters fill (like who the actual Dragon Reborn is), I'll be able to roll with a lot of the changes they make. If they do, I doubt the show would last long enough to be able to film Dumai's Wells.

I honestly cannot fathom that they would change who the Dragon is, I can imagine the next ep or two might include jebaiting the audience into thinking it's Nyneave, but even Moiraine has basically already explained she's too old for it to really be her.

Like, the story wouldn't work if it's not our boy so I'd be floored if they'd do something so silly.

[mickybrighteyes]

Oh yeah, that's actually one that upset me a little, I coulda got down with most sword styles but I'm 100% sure Tam's sword wasn't described even close to a katana. I didn't imagine it quite like your image but that's very close to what I had in mind, just a pretty no-frills kinda falchion. I also imagined the heron mark on the crossguard but now that I think about it I reckon I just head canon-ed that because I think the books do say it tends to be on the hilt.

There's a long ass Robert Jordan Style description for the sword to include a hilt of braided metal, heron marks on hilt and blade, and it's single edged blade. Something fair different from what guards and mercenaries would have

edit:

but really... the basic description should have been something like a Falchion or what I've come to understand as a Kriegmesser. Defintely NOT a katana

[Kharadin]

I think that's a VERY generous description for size given it's far smaller than Tarwin's Gap on any map. And despite the foot notes labeling multiple locations i wouldn't call them all 'towns' (your link doesn't even list 4 towns.... it lists a "Small Town" and 3 Villages which should imply certain population levels given English usage of the settlement words used.

I mean, it takes them a day and a night to ride at full pelt out of the Two Rivers, right? And then later on we find out it's about a three-day march from Taren Ferry to Emond's Field when they come to help out Perrin.

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There's a long ass Robert Jordan Style description for the sword to include a hilt of braided metal, heron marks on hilt and blade, and it's single edged blade. Something fair different from what guards and mercenaries would have

I must have skipped over the braided metal, that's entirely new to me and I've read the books four times. Maybe I'll catch it on the fifth. I guess I am almost done with the Licanius Trilogy, I could go again.

[mickybrighteyes]

I honestly cannot fathom that they would change who the Dragon is, I can imagine the next ep or two might include jebaiting the audience into thinking it's Nyneave, but even Moiraine has basically already explained she's too old for it to really be her.

Like, the story wouldn't work if it's not our boy so I'd be floored if they'd do something so silly.

wouldn't be the first time a showrunner has baited an audience so blatantly.

[Kharadin]

wouldn't be the first time a showrunner has baited an audience so blatantly.

The baiting I'm fine with, the switching less so. Just from the source material I can imagine it'd be very hard to actual rope in a new audience using book 1 so ramping up the mystery, throwing in some red herrings and/or more candidates for the Dragon is fine by me. But changing entirely? Nah, I'd need to see it to believe.

[Themius]

I mean in the books the Two Rivers lot are just described as dark of hair and dark of eye, and indeed that's why Rand is the only outlier. And within that description the rest of the cast falls easily. I'm not really sure what your issue is.

Literally Cenn Buie is literally noted as being "dark as an old root" which in Robert Jordan's notes was how he wanted to described black people but no one bitched and moaned when Cenn Buie was white in the graphic novels..or white in the films, and I give not a single shit his casting is white.

The two rivers literally is the remnant of a large metropolitan city so people saying they should all be one race probably haven't read the books very closely. A lot of people are described as dark or light or pale and such and it's up to the person to imagine well " how dark is dark" but I've heard people think that Tuon is olive skin dark Italian when the book literally describes her as a black porcelain which... is pretty fucking dark lol.

[mickybrighteyes]

I mean, it takes them a day and a night to ride at full pelt out of the Two Rivers, right? And then later on we find out it's about a three-day march from Taren Ferry to Emond's Field when they come to help out Perrin.

Thing is that the Two Rivers settlements aren't unified in that each area is headed up by different local groups. The actual rulers of the country don't even bother showing up cause it isn't worth looking in on for them. The surrounding areas are all basically doing their own thing with the only real hook for the old empire being whatever is left of the blood line in the Ta'veren. It's still a fact that the area of the region in question still can fit inside "Tarwin's Gap" almost twice over...

Two Rivers is still a back water area under Andor and the people within the villages don't bother knowing that (given that basically all the kids didn't know that)

I must have skipped over the braided metal, that's entirely new to me and I've read the books four times. Maybe I'll catch it on the fifth. I guess I am almost done with the Licanius Trilogy, I could go again.

I didn't really pay it much mind previously but a certain youtuber took greater issue with the sword in the show than me and pulled the book out and read the passages

[Kharadin]

Literally Cenn Buie is literally noted as being "dark as an old root" which in Robert Jordan's notes was how he wanted to described black people but no one bitched and moaned when Cenn Buie was white in the graphic novels..or white in the films, and I give not a single shit his casting is white.

The two rivers literally is the remnant of a large metropolitan city so people saying they should all be one race probably haven't read the books very closely. A lot of people are described as dark or light or pale and such and it's up to the person to imagine well " how dark is dark" but I've heard people think that Tuon is olive skin dark Italian when the book literally describes her as a black porcelain which... is pretty fucking dark lol.

Aha, that's fantastic, I always imagined him as an old bearded white dude I must have missed the "dark as an old root" literally four times. That's incredible.

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I didn't really pay it much mind previously but a certain youtuber took greater issue with the sword in the show than me and pulled the book out and read the passages

Aha, I think I might know who you mean so I'm gonna go look that up. Yeah tbh I don't think it's an issue really it was just a kinda "huh, that's not what I imagined..." and then looking it up and being like "yeah they just decided to go katana because memes".

[rhorle]

Literally Cenn Buie is literally noted as being "dark as an old root" which in Robert Jordan's notes was how he wanted to described black people but no one bitched and moaned when Cenn Buie was white in the graphic novels..or white in the films, and I give not a single shit his casting is white.

To be fair old roots rarely invoke "black" since roots are not often that color to begin with. Exposed old roots tend to be more grey or similar to the color of soil/tree if buried. So if you don't have notes from RJ to know exactly what he referenced I think it is rarer to think black.

[Themius]

To be fair old roots rarely invoke "black" since roots are not often that color to begin with. Exposed old roots tend to be more grey or similar to the color of soil/tree if buried. So if you don't have notes from RJ to know exactly what he referenced I think it is rarer to think black.

They are just as often brown or brown with a grey cast too. In any case, that's what Cenn is his universe and I know that but I really don't care that the actor or the graphic novel had a white person.

[Katchii]

I think that's a VERY generous description for size given it's far smaller than Tarwin's Gap on any map. And despite the foot notes labeling multiple locations i wouldn't call them all 'towns' (your link doesn't even list 4 towns.... it lists a "Small Town" and 3 Villages which should imply certain population levels given English usage of the settlement words used.

Point being, it's not one town. There's 4 different settlements and several independent farms. It's not nearly as tiny as you were seemingly making it out to be.

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I honestly cannot fathom that they would change who the Dragon is, I can imagine the next ep or two might include jebaiting the audience into thinking it's Nyneave, but even Moiraine has basically already explained she's too old for it to really be her.

Like, the story wouldn't work if it's not our boy so I'd be floored if they'd do something so silly.

As would I. I couldn't fathom it either. But the changes they've made to the prophecies to allow it to be a man or woman don't make ANY sense to me unless they're going to do something like that. There's no reason to change the prophecies to allow it to be both of those genders if they never had any intention of making it a woman.

[oplawlz]

To be fair old roots rarely invoke "black" since roots are not often that color to begin with. Exposed old roots tend to be more grey or similar to the color of soil/tree if buried. So if you don't have notes from RJ to know exactly what he referenced I think it is rarer to think black.

The fact that he's a thatcher means he spent his whole life exposed to the sun too, I rather imagine him to be like an old rancher, darkened by the sun rather than ethnicity.
That said I'm not one to be bothered by the color of an actors skin, as long as the source material is respected.