[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Kharadin]

wouldn't be the first time a showrunner has baited an audience so blatantly.

The baiting I'm fine with, the switching less so. Just from the source material I can imagine it'd be very hard to actual rope in a new audience using book 1 so ramping up the mystery, throwing in some red herrings and/or more candidates for the Dragon is fine by me. But changing entirely? Nah, I'd need to see it to believe.

[Themius]

I mean in the books the Two Rivers lot are just described as dark of hair and dark of eye, and indeed that's why Rand is the only outlier. And within that description the rest of the cast falls easily. I'm not really sure what your issue is.

Literally Cenn Buie is literally noted as being "dark as an old root" which in Robert Jordan's notes was how he wanted to described black people but no one bitched and moaned when Cenn Buie was white in the graphic novels..or white in the films, and I give not a single shit his casting is white.

The two rivers literally is the remnant of a large metropolitan city so people saying they should all be one race probably haven't read the books very closely. A lot of people are described as dark or light or pale and such and it's up to the person to imagine well " how dark is dark" but I've heard people think that Tuon is olive skin dark Italian when the book literally describes her as a black porcelain which... is pretty fucking dark lol.

[mickybrighteyes]

I mean, it takes them a day and a night to ride at full pelt out of the Two Rivers, right? And then later on we find out it's about a three-day march from Taren Ferry to Emond's Field when they come to help out Perrin.

Thing is that the Two Rivers settlements aren't unified in that each area is headed up by different local groups. The actual rulers of the country don't even bother showing up cause it isn't worth looking in on for them. The surrounding areas are all basically doing their own thing with the only real hook for the old empire being whatever is left of the blood line in the Ta'veren. It's still a fact that the area of the region in question still can fit inside "Tarwin's Gap" almost twice over...

Two Rivers is still a back water area under Andor and the people within the villages don't bother knowing that (given that basically all the kids didn't know that)

I must have skipped over the braided metal, that's entirely new to me and I've read the books four times. Maybe I'll catch it on the fifth. I guess I am almost done with the Licanius Trilogy, I could go again.

I didn't really pay it much mind previously but a certain youtuber took greater issue with the sword in the show than me and pulled the book out and read the passages

[Kharadin]

Literally Cenn Buie is literally noted as being "dark as an old root" which in Robert Jordan's notes was how he wanted to described black people but no one bitched and moaned when Cenn Buie was white in the graphic novels..or white in the films, and I give not a single shit his casting is white.

The two rivers literally is the remnant of a large metropolitan city so people saying they should all be one race probably haven't read the books very closely. A lot of people are described as dark or light or pale and such and it's up to the person to imagine well " how dark is dark" but I've heard people think that Tuon is olive skin dark Italian when the book literally describes her as a black porcelain which... is pretty fucking dark lol.

Aha, that's fantastic, I always imagined him as an old bearded white dude I must have missed the "dark as an old root" literally four times. That's incredible.

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I didn't really pay it much mind previously but a certain youtuber took greater issue with the sword in the show than me and pulled the book out and read the passages

Aha, I think I might know who you mean so I'm gonna go look that up. Yeah tbh I don't think it's an issue really it was just a kinda "huh, that's not what I imagined..." and then looking it up and being like "yeah they just decided to go katana because memes".

[rhorle]

Literally Cenn Buie is literally noted as being "dark as an old root" which in Robert Jordan's notes was how he wanted to described black people but no one bitched and moaned when Cenn Buie was white in the graphic novels..or white in the films, and I give not a single shit his casting is white.

To be fair old roots rarely invoke "black" since roots are not often that color to begin with. Exposed old roots tend to be more grey or similar to the color of soil/tree if buried. So if you don't have notes from RJ to know exactly what he referenced I think it is rarer to think black.

[Themius]

To be fair old roots rarely invoke "black" since roots are not often that color to begin with. Exposed old roots tend to be more grey or similar to the color of soil/tree if buried. So if you don't have notes from RJ to know exactly what he referenced I think it is rarer to think black.

They are just as often brown or brown with a grey cast too. In any case, that's what Cenn is his universe and I know that but I really don't care that the actor or the graphic novel had a white person.

[Katchii]

I think that's a VERY generous description for size given it's far smaller than Tarwin's Gap on any map. And despite the foot notes labeling multiple locations i wouldn't call them all 'towns' (your link doesn't even list 4 towns.... it lists a "Small Town" and 3 Villages which should imply certain population levels given English usage of the settlement words used.

Point being, it's not one town. There's 4 different settlements and several independent farms. It's not nearly as tiny as you were seemingly making it out to be.

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I honestly cannot fathom that they would change who the Dragon is, I can imagine the next ep or two might include jebaiting the audience into thinking it's Nyneave, but even Moiraine has basically already explained she's too old for it to really be her.

Like, the story wouldn't work if it's not our boy so I'd be floored if they'd do something so silly.

As would I. I couldn't fathom it either. But the changes they've made to the prophecies to allow it to be a man or woman don't make ANY sense to me unless they're going to do something like that. There's no reason to change the prophecies to allow it to be both of those genders if they never had any intention of making it a woman.

[oplawlz]

To be fair old roots rarely invoke "black" since roots are not often that color to begin with. Exposed old roots tend to be more grey or similar to the color of soil/tree if buried. So if you don't have notes from RJ to know exactly what he referenced I think it is rarer to think black.

The fact that he's a thatcher means he spent his whole life exposed to the sun too, I rather imagine him to be like an old rancher, darkened by the sun rather than ethnicity.
That said I'm not one to be bothered by the color of an actors skin, as long as the source material is respected.

[mickybrighteyes]

Point being, it's not one town. There's 4 different settlements and several independent farms. It's not nearly as tiny as you were seemingly making it out to be.

4 settlements of no unification at all among themselves except for being subjects of Andor (who barely acknowledge that at all) and unspecified farms are even less for establishing much of anything beyond how in the boonies the whole place is... I sincerely doubt it's a good case of a multiple millenia old lost empire's melting pot.

[Xath]

I mean I guess that's fair enough I just don't agree. I don't think it's intended to mean anything other than what it says. They're dark of hair and eye, and Rand is a tall white boy with blue/grey eyes and red hair, thus he stands out. Within those bounds, I think the casting of the main ensemble fits just fine. That being said, Tam's a bit lighter in pretty much every respect than I'd expect since sans his height he could believably be Rand's daddy in the show which is a bit scuffed.

Once again the only reasons Rand stands out is hair color eye color and height. He along with the rest have farmer's tans his skin color is only noticed when Elaidia rolls up his sleeve to show untanned skin.. Jordan also had literal cast lists of who he was seeing as each person when he wrote the books. The casting much like the changes to characterization is just straight up bad and Rafe pushing himself and his views over Jordan's world.

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I can't wait for them to go "desert people? MUST BE AFRICAN/MIDDLE-EASTERN ACTORS" because you just know it.

Oh jeez they are going to do that aren't they ugh

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There's a long ass Robert Jordan Style description for the sword to include a hilt of braided metal, heron marks on hilt and blade, and it's single edged blade. Something fair different from what guards and mercenaries would have

edit:

but really... the basic description should have been something like a Falchion or what I've come to understand as a Kriegmesser. Defintely NOT a katana

Kriegmesser is probably the closest I think a less ornate version but that fits the description of almost fragile looking.

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Literally Cenn Buie is literally noted as being "dark as an old root" which in Robert Jordan's notes was how he wanted to described black people but no one bitched and moaned when Cenn Buie was white in the graphic novels..or white in the films, and I give not a single shit his casting is white.

The two rivers literally is the remnant of a large metropolitan city so people saying they should all be one race probably haven't read the books very closely. A lot of people are described as dark or light or pale and such and it's up to the person to imagine well " how dark is dark" but I've heard people think that Tuon is olive skin dark Italian when the book literally describes her as a black porcelain which... is pretty fucking dark lol.

Cenn Buie was described as gnarled the graphic novels were heavily overseen by Jordan with him directly interjecting a bunch especially on new spring.

Either way the casting is secondary compared to what they have done to the characters especially Mat and his family.

[Triceron]

As would I. I couldn't fathom it either. But the changes they've made to the prophecies to allow it to be a man or woman don't make ANY sense to me unless they're going to do something like that. There's no reason to change the prophecies to allow it to be both of those genders if they never had any intention of making it a woman.

Gonna play devil's advocate here, but do you really think they're going to change the Dragon Reborn into a different character?

I mean consider that they picked a pretty damn close book-description Dragon Reborn (I'm intentionally avoiding spoiler), and the series is keeping him super low-key with almost no hype over his character while eagerly hyping up everyone else. You think the show is really going to have Egwene or Nynaeve be the Dragon Reborn? To me, it's pretty clear that the show is still setting up for a big Dragon Reborn reveal while keeping the casual audience's expectations super low surrounding the actual character.

[Katchii]

4 settlements of no unification at all among themselves except for being subjects of Andor (who barely acknowledge that at all) and unspecified farms are even less for establishing much of anything beyond how in the boonies the whole place is... I sincerely doubt it's a good case of a multiple millenia old lost empire's melting pot.

Sorry. Can you clarify what point you're making? I think I got lost in the thread and missed that somewhere.

My only point is that it's not tiny, nothing to do with population size, or it being a melting pot or anything. And what do you mean here by melting pot? I'm not reading that sentence right, as it sounds like you're using the word different than how I understand it.

Just want to make sure we're on the same page before replying with more info and adding my 2 cents.

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Gonna play devil's advocate here, but do you really think they're going to change the Dragon Reborn into a different character?

I mean consider that they picked a pretty damn close book-description Dragon Reborn (I'm intentionally avoiding spoiler), and the series is keeping him super low-key with almost no hype over his character while eagerly hyping up everyone else. You think the show is really going to have Egwene or Nynaeve be the Dragon Reborn? To me, it's pretty clear that the show is still setting up for a big Dragon Reborn reveal while keeping the casual audience's expectations super low surrounding the actual character.

I honestly have no idea. I've seen some really fucked up book adaptations. Not going to put it passed anyone these days to pull something ridiculous like changing a main characters role.

But no I don't TRULY think so. But again, I just can't wrap my head around why they're making some of the changes they are unless they're going down that road. It makes no sense to me otherwise.

[Flurryfang]

I can't wait for them to go "desert people? MUST BE AFRICAN/MIDDLE-EASTERN ACTORS" because you just know it.

Tbh it is proberly the biggest problem the show has to deal with, or will skip over, that most of the cultures in WoT have different looks when it comes to skin color.

Like, how are you gonna get desert gingers? Or save the entire black skin color for a sea faring folk.

While i am a big fan of the divide in the books, as the cultures/nationalities are distinct enough to make some cool scenes, where they meet on the scene, its obvious that we will not see that and something will be lost because of that.

There are so many "Wtf is that :O!" that you won't get when characters meet Aiel or Atha'an Miere and see a kind of folk they have never seen before.

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It's an average fantasy show.

Exactly.

That is going to be the downfall of the show i think. Its attitude towards the show makes it less special and it just becomes a new generic fantasy show. And with shows like Shadow and Bone, the Witcher, the Letter of the King and soon Lord of the Rings, why should you watch Wheel of Time when these shows does their own source material better.

[Katchii]

Tbh it is proberly the biggest problem the show has to deal with, or will skip over, that most of the cultures in WoT have different looks when it comes to skin color.

Like, how are you gonna get desert gingers? Or save the entire black skin color for a sea faring folk.

While i am a big fan of the divide in the books, as the cultures/nationalities are distinct enough to make some cool scenes, where they meet on the scene, its obvious that we will not see that and something will be lost because of that.

There are so many "Wtf is that :O!" that you won't get when characters meet Aiel or Atha'an Miere and see a kind of folk they have never seen before.

I'd imagine they would have to go all out with costuming to really separate the cultures if they're going to mix the races on screen. The Aiel are really the only race, IMO, where the actual skin, hair and eye color are really important because of how it relates to one of the main characters.

Exactly.

That is going to be the downfall of the show i think. Its attitude towards the show makes it less special and it just becomes a new generic fantasy show. And with shows like Shadow and Bone, the Witcher, the Letter of the King and soon Lord of the Rings, why should you watch Wheel of Time when these shows does their own source material better.

Eh. Depends. I'm a sucker for fantasy shows, and they only have to be decent for me to just gobble it up. The source material here is close to my heart so I'm more critical of their adaptation, and so far...it's fine. I'm still skeptical of where it's going, but it's fine so far. I agree that it's a relatively generic fantasy show, but the production value is shown, but I also agree that it doesn't make good use of it in some cases.

[Flurryfang]

I'd imagine they would have to go all out with costuming to really separate the cultures if they're going to mix the races on screen. The Aiel are really the only race, IMO, where the actual skin, hair and eye color are really important because of how it relates to one of the main characters.

Yeah that is what i think too. It seems like that the way they are doing cultures/nations is clothes instead of skin color. Which is alright i guess, but i will agree that the Aiel will lose some of the wierdness, oddness and coolness around them, if they are just like other people, but with desert clothes. It would have been pretty awesome to see the scenes where the Aiel stand beside the Tear folk, standing 1-2 feet taller than them and looking like giants xD

Eh. Depends. I'm a sucker for fantasy shows, and they only have to be decent for me to just gobble it up. The source material here is close to my heart so I'm more critical of their adaptation, and so far...it's fine. I'm still skeptical of where it's going, but it's fine so far. I agree that it's a relatively generic fantasy show, but the production value is shown, but I also agree that it doesn't make good use of it in some cases.

While i always hope that respect for the material will matter, i do know that WoT will most likely be sucessful simply based upon its production value. The thing is just, that i fear that it will not last the 8-10 seasons the full story will require, if they just keep being generic. They will never get the HUGE viewership, that is required to keep the production value up for that many seasons :/

[rhorle]

But no I don't TRULY think so. But again, I just can't wrap my head around why they're making some of the changes they are unless they're going down that road. It makes no sense to me otherwise.

It is because they have no real plot besides the "mystery" of who the Dragon is. Reading the episode descriptions we find out in Episode 7. Episode 8 covers presumably covers the same ending of the first book given the title but who really knows. https://wot-prime.fandom.com/wiki/Season_1#Episodes

Though the Episode 7 and 8 descriptions don't show up on a lot of source so maybe they will change from the ones from the link I provided.

[Rennadrel]

Rotten Tomatoes has an unusual way of calculating scores. Its much higher than elsewhere. Metacritic has it at 55 critcs and 63 viewers, while IMdB (owned by Amazon) is at 75 from the viewers

Anyone with a functional brain knows that Rotten Tomatoes is not worth taking seriously and that's been the case since they started obfuscating reviews because people had legitimate criticisms of films.

[Triceron]

But no I don't TRULY think so. But again, I just can't wrap my head around why they're making some of the changes they are unless they're going down that road. It makes no sense to me otherwise.

I mean, have you not considered that this is a weekly TV series and they're intentionally adding cliffhangers and hooks for the casual audience to build up a buzz and get talking about it? It's pretty obvious that's why this is even happening.

The Books were pretty flat out linear, and even if the Dragon Reborn wasn't outright talked about or if you already knew it was going to be X character, the mystery was part of the charm of finding things out. And maybe the show creators simply didn't think the 3 main characters was enough of a hook so they wanted to expand that to all the tagalong characters. As far as I see it, the Dragon Reborn is still going to be male, so the prophecy (or interpretations of such) aren't as important to the overall TV plot as they are in the book series. Unless they're actually going to switch up making Egwene or Nynaeve the Dragon Reborn, the overall plot doesn't actually change since we're still going to follow all the other story beats leading to the final battle. I imagine that this will definitely have a butterfly effect throughout the TV universe, but they're not switching up the plot so far to have a literal different character be the Dragon Reborn here, they're switching up how the prophecy works for the purpose of generating buzz amongst the TV fans.

Cuz let's face it, if it was as is in the books and it was just the 3 main characters, it's already super obvious which one is the Dragon Reborn even if you've never read the books. I don't know how a more casual non-book reader would take the series right now at face value, but the TV series has kept it quite ambiguous so far, and with the racial diversity at play, I don't think it's all too obvious who the Dragon Reborn might actually be. I mean even now, you know who it will be, and you're still questioning whether they'd actually change it up. That's generating discussion that we would never otherwise have, and frankly that mystery may be disconcerting to you, but it's just as much going to be a relief if they end up sticking to the book Dragon Reborn. The rest of the stuff not making sense - like, do the prophecy hints really matter that much once the Dragon Reborn actually gets unveiled? The plot is still going to continue having everyone question the prophecies, having the prophecies slowly revealed, and the slow shift of focus to whether the Dragon Reborn will die or not more than concerns over whether his soul could be female or not.

[Katchii]

Yeah that is what i think too. It seems like that the way they are doing cultures/nations is clothes instead of skin color. Which is alright i guess, but i will agree that the Aiel will lose some of the wierdness, oddness and coolness around them, if they are just like other people, but with desert clothes. It would have been pretty awesome to see the scenes where the Aiel stand beside the Tear folk, standing 1-2 feet taller than them and looking like giants xD

That would be awesome.

While i always hope that respect for the material will matter, i do know that WoT will most likely be sucessful simply based upon its production value. The thing is just, that i fear that it will not last the 8-10 seasons the full story will require, if they just keep being generic. They will never get the HUGE viewership, that is required to keep the production value up for that many seasons :/

I don't think it will last either, but I hope rather than just killing the show, they just reduce the cost per episode. That said, I'm sure they could already do that, as a significant portion of the cost so far is creating the costuming and such that could likely be reused in later seasons.

We'll have to wait and see. I guess. But I'll probably continue watching for as long it's available...so long as they don't change things up so much where it makes me stop watching.

[Flurryfang]

That would be awesome.



I don't think it will last either, but I hope rather than just killing the show, they just reduce the cost per episode. That said, I'm sure they could already do that, as a significant portion of the cost so far is creating the costuming and such that could likely be reused in later seasons.

We'll have to wait and see. I guess. But I'll probably continue watching for as long it's available...so long as they don't change things up so much where it makes me stop watching.

If they find their stride and are able to keep going with the core of the story staying true, i would not mind them reducing the cost of the show. Just aslong as we don't get to the quality of like Flash, then il properly enjoy it.

And as you say, we will have to wait and see. We are afterall only on the first season and only 4 episodes in. Things can change and defiantly also for the better.