[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Triceron]

It is because they have no real plot besides the "mystery" of who the Dragon is. Reading the episode descriptions we find out in Episode 7. Episode 8 covers presumably covers the same ending of the first book given the title but who really knows. https://wot-prime.fandom.com/wiki/Season_1#Episodes

Though the Episode 7 and 8 descriptions don't show up on a lot of source so maybe they will change from the ones from the link I provided.

Not quite sure what you mean about the show having no real plot, and how this relates to the episode 7 and 8 conclusions. Does the book go over a different plot than what is outlined there or something?

[Flurryfang]

SNIP

....While i don't condone it at ALL!......It would be interesting to see what they would do with Rands character, if he is not the dragon reborn :O

Like, if he does not become the Car'a'carn, will he then get a different position within the Aiel or do they do something completly out there with him?

Just an interesting thought i guess. The story has potential for wild things, if we accept that the story is changed completly aside from the core.

[Katchii]

I mean, have you not considered that this is a weekly TV series and they're intentionally adding cliffhangers and hooks for the casual audience to build up a buzz and get talking about it? It's pretty obvious that's why this is even happening.

Which is unnecessary and silly IMO.

The Books were pretty flat out linear, and even if the Dragon Reborn wasn't outright talked about or if you already knew it was going to be X character, the mystery was part of the charm of finding things out. And maybe the show creators simply didn't think the 3 main characters was enough of a hook so they wanted to expand that to all the tagalong characters. As far as I see it, the Dragon Reborn is still going to be male, so the prophecy (or interpretations of such) aren't as important to the overall TV plot as they are in the book series. Unless they're actually going to switch up making Egwene or Nynaeve the Dragon Reborn, the overall plot doesn't actually change since we're still going to follow all the other story beats leading to the final battle. I imagine that this will definitely have a butterfly effect throughout the TV universe, but they're not switching up the plot so far to have a literal different character be the Dragon Reborn here, they're switching up how the prophecy works for the purpose of generating buzz amongst the TV fans.

Again, unnecessary IMO. If they focused on telling the story as it's written in the book, they could still generate buzz among the fans while staying true to the spirit of the books, by focusing on creating those cliffhangers and such using actual events in the book rather than manufacturing some alternate event to create that buzz. I think they focused on the wrong stuff.

Case in point, the latest episode completely fucks up Nynaeves character arch, as far as how her character develops in the book. All the challenges she faces because of her issues with channeling because of her inability to "surrender," all gone now that she just did it automatically. Or they significantly jumped ahead in her development and she broke that barrier now, but again that fucks up SO much of her story.

Cuz let's face it, if it was as is in the books and it was just the 3 main characters, it's already super obvious which one is the Dragon Reborn even if you've never read the books. I don't know how a more casual non-book reader would take the series right now at face value, but the TV series has kept it quite ambiguous so far, and with the racial diversity at play, I don't think it's all too obvious who the Dragon Reborn might actually be. I mean even now, you know who it will be, and you're still questioning whether they'd actually change it up. That's generating discussion that we would never otherwise have, and frankly that mystery may be disconcerting to you, but it's just as much going to be a relief if they end up sticking to the book Dragon Reborn. The rest of the stuff not making sense - like, do the prophecy hints really matter that much once the Dragon Reborn actually gets unveiled? The plot is still going to continue having everyone question the prophecies, having the prophecies slowly revealed, and the slow shift of focus to whether the Dragon Reborn will die or not more than concerns over whether his soul could be female or not.

I'll boil it down. I think they're focusing too much on generating hype and keeping things vague to drive some kind of intrigue rather than just telling the story, so much so that they're manufacturing events to create that hype rather than using the events in the story that would naturally create it. Instead of thinking about how they could create the feelings they're wanting to evoke using events that actually happen in the book, they're manufacturing new stuff to TRY and do that. And IMO, they're not doing great at it. Perrin's wife and Mat' family issues being good examples of this.

[rhorle]

Not quite sure what you mean about the show having no real plot, and how this relates to the episode 7 and 8 conclusions. Does the book go over a different plot than what is outlined there or something?

The plot of the book is not about the mystery of who the Dragon is. But about protecting the Dragon and the Journey to the Eye of the World. While that is loosely what the show is doing it is putting a greater emphasis on who the Dragon is with all of the changes it has made so far. That mystery is revealed in episode 7.

[Flurryfang]

I don't really get the entire "who is the dragon reborn" mystery, because... its not a really interesting mystery.

Having this mystery is stealing the other characters from their own story. If we kinda knew that Rand was the dragon reborn from the start in the show, the entire season could instead build up the other characters wants/needs, so that we get to see rand be the Dragon Reborn, the other characters still have their own goals intact.

[Triceron]

Again, unnecessary IMO. If they focused on telling the story as it's written in the book, they could still generate buzz among the fans while staying true to the spirit of the books, by focusing on creating those cliffhangers and such using actual events in the book rather than manufacturing some alternate event to create that buzz. I think they focused on the wrong stuff.

Case in point, the latest episode completely fucks up Nynaeves character arch, as far as how her character develops in the book. All the challenges she faces because of her issues with channeling because of her inability to "surrender," all gone now that she just did it automatically. Or they significantly jumped ahead in her development and she broke that barrier now, but again that fucks up SO much of her story.

Considering the pacing and considering the changes they added, everything seems rushed because they want to have everyone be on board that these characters have flaws (Perrin killing wife = immediate loner filled with regrets and fears, Mat with daddy/mommy issues = good-hearted yet broken character) or potential to be great (Egwene and Nynaeve with immediate powers). I don't think they have the benefit of the books of having enough time to develop these characters at all, especially enough to cover each and every one of them. That's what I see leading them to take these immediate shortcuts.

Plus there's no guarantee that the time they spend going on these character journeys will necessarily pay off either, since spending so much time to develop X character ultimately takes screen time away from Y, and I can see why they'll take the shortcut of just giving characters that power for the sake of building up expectations later on for the actual Dragon Reborn once that's all unveiled.

Again, not something I agree with creatively, but I don't think the idea that it is unnecessary also means it's not understandable. We can understand it and still disagree with it, and if you say you're not understanding then all I'm doing is offering a different angle to take a look at. By no means am I implying all of this should be accepted without question. Again, I also see some of the changes as being fairly pointless, but as someone who works in TV I also understand why some of these changes need to be made. The plot moving at lightning speeds in the first 3 episodes tells me that they don't have the fortune of taking their time with the story and establishing the world as we might have time enjoying the books. They have 8 episodes to tell the entire first book, so they're gonna cram as much in there as they can while character development is going to take a hit for it.

I'll boil it down. I think they're focusing too much on generating hype and keeping things vague to drive some kind of intrigue rather than just telling the story, so much so that they're manufacturing events to create that hype rather than using the events in the story that would naturally create it. Instead of thinking about how they could create the feelings they're wanting to evoke using events that actually happen in the book, they're manufacturing new stuff to TRY and do that. And IMO, they're not doing great at it. Perrin's wife and Mat' family issues being good examples of this.

It's always a catch 22 since non-book readers may not get those same 'feelings' as someone who has read the books and is simply interested in seeing what they imagine in their head be played out on screen. If they made that version of the show, there's always a chance that a non-book reader could simply be lost and not totally 'get' the characters, because the pacing is much slower and nuanced rather than straight up translated in visual medium.

One example is how they chose to do the magic. In the books, you're not even supposed to see anything. There's no visual indication that anyone uses the one power, and that's what makes it so dangerous. It just happens, and you don't really get to react until it's too late. Compare that to how every bit of magic is visually shown for everyone to see. That's a creative decision that they have to make for the audience to properly recognize that this is 'magic' at play, and not be confusing as fuck.

[Themius]

The fact that he's a thatcher means he spent his whole life exposed to the sun too, I rather imagine him to be like an old rancher, darkened by the sun rather than ethnicity.
That said I'm not one to be bothered by the color of an actors skin, as long as the source material is respected.

You can imagine him that way... RJ's notes however would say he's using those words to describe black people. The actual description "he is as gnarled and dark as an old root"

As long as source material is being respected is frankly shitty code lol. RJ also didn't really like depictions of his characters btw.

[Cattleya]

I don't really get the entire "who is the dragon reborn" mystery, because... its not a really interesting mystery.

You say that, but I have some friends who watch the show without having read the books, and the thing they're talking about the most is exactly this mystery. One episode they think it's Perrin, the next they think it's Egwene, then Mat, now Nyneave.

Which is why the show keeps that card up its sleeve while showing various characters having special characteristics. It creates conversation and buzz but doesn't actually derail the overall direction that the story in the books takes, everyone's clearly still on the same course.

Honestly I think it's a pretty valid way to keep people interested while you're building up the characters and the world. Sooner or later they have to drop the mystery and make it clear who the dragon is (and I'm 99.99% sure it's the same as in the books) but by that time you'll have people invested in other parts of the story and characters.

[Flurryfang]

You say that, but I have some friends who watch the show without having read the books, and the thing they're talking about the most is exactly this mystery. One episode they think it's Perrin, the next they think it's Egwene, then Mat, now Nyneave.

Which is why the show keeps that card up its sleeve while showing various characters having special characteristics. It creates conversation and buzz but doesn't actually derail the overall direction that the story in the books takes, everyone's clearly still on the same course.

Honestly I think it's a pretty valid way to keep people interested while you're building up the characters and the world. Sooner or later they have to drop the mystery and make it clear who the dragon is (and I'm 99.99% sure it's the same as in the books) but by that time you'll have people invested in other parts of the story and characters.

I haven't really thought about that. That is actually a good point, it does create a thing to talk about and while its "value" might get lost at the end, it does gain some interest in the start.

It will be a good way to do it, IF it does not take away from the creating of goals from the other characters. If Egwene, Nyneave and Mat still has to be potential dragons to the very end, i do think it will leave them with very little when the season is over. It will take a lot then to restart the importance of these characters, since Rand will then take most of the focus.

Thanks for pointing it out though. I have planned to watch binge this with my girlfriend and i think she will enjoy the mystery more now that you have pointed it out to me

[Shadowferal]

I don't really get the entire "who is the dragon reborn" mystery, because... its not a really interesting mystery.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's just prep for changing the Dragon. Rafe said he wasn't sticking to the books and that this was a another turning of the wheel and you have 4-5 potential Dragons. Sure he said if you read the books then you know who the dragon is...in the books. "Subverting expectations?"

[Triceron]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's just prep for changing the Dragon. Rafe said he wasn't sticking to the books and that this was a another turning of the wheel and you have 4-5 potential Dragons. Sure he said if you read the books then you know who the dragon is...in the books. "Subverting expectations?"

To be honest, worry about that when we get there is how I see it.

No need to anticipate the milk being spoiled when we're literally months away from its expiration date. We can discuss that if and when it actually happens.

The show could make Moraine the Dark One for all that matters, but I don't think we should be humoring these kind of discussions (yet) just cuz the show happens to stray from the books. Even with the prophecy being changed, the show hasn't really altered course plot-wise.

[Flurryfang]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's just prep for changing the Dragon. Rafe said he wasn't sticking to the books and that this was a another turning of the wheel and you have 4-5 potential Dragons. Sure he said if you read the books then you know who the dragon is...in the books. "Subverting expectations?"

Again, while i actually begin to like the idea of having a story with a different dragon, it would also make it a completly different story. Nearly half of all story plots in the story is connected to either Rands linage or him being him. If, lets say Egwene, becomes the dragon, the show can't follow the same story beats as books, cause then there is no reason to go to the Aiel Wastes, no need to have Asmodean as a tutor, there is no new Amylin Seat and so much more.

So yeah, it would be an odd show, but very much also its own unique thing.

[kendro1200]

Again, while i actually begin to like the idea of having a story with a different dragon, it would also make it a completly different story. Nearly half of all story plots in the story is connected to either Rands linage or him being him. If, lets say Egwene, becomes the dragon, the show can't follow the same story beats as books, cause then there is no reason to go to the Aiel Wastes, no need to have Asmodean as a tutor, there is no new Amylin Seat and so much more.

So yeah, it would be an odd show, but very much also its own unique thing.

While a lot of people whine about RJ and BS being too verbose and stretching out their stories, the fact of the matter is that WoT character arcs are heavily interwoven, more so than in other books. The moment you start changing other characters it impacts not only those characters, but all of the main characters and many of the side characters in all of the remaining narrative material. How much has been changed drastically changes the rest of the plot for the story. In comparison, you could change some characters in ASoIaF, and those changes wouldn't directly impact the main cast of characters. The same is not true for WoT.
It's why I've said, ever since this thing has been released is that it's WoT in name only. It would take a massive amount of work, that Rafe has shown he's not willing to do, to try and recover the plot at this point. Rafe wanted to write a WoT fanfiction, but knew that it couldn't stand on its own. He's taken the WoT brand, and usurped it for his own purposes, and is butchering it in the process.

[oplawlz]

As long as source material is being respected is frankly shitty code lol.

Not sure what you mean by this, but by source material being respected I'm just talking about things that matter being stuck to. Like the aiel all looking similar to Rand - that's really a key element of the story and factors in to many formative scenes down the line.

[Themius]

Not sure what you mean by this, but by source material being respected I'm just talking about things that matter being stuck to. Like the aiel all looking similar to Rand - that's really a key element of the story and factors in to many formative scenes down the line.

It’s not key.

The red hair and light eyes are key frankly and we see the first aiel with that red hair

[Xath]

You can imagine him that way... RJ's notes however would say he's using those words to describe black people. The actual description "he is as gnarled and dark as an old root"

As long as source material is being respected is frankly shitty code lol. RJ also didn't really like depictions of his characters btw.

You realize RJ literally had cast lists of who he was seeing in his head right? He also had significant input on the graphic novels. Both you and rafe are desperate to twist the world into something it's not. It doesn't really work to go holy crap these people look so different from us when the entire world is a melting pot. What RJ did was create specific areas in terms of race and then he largely put cultures that didn't mesh with those races together. Andor outside the royal family is likely similar to Britain. The Aiel to the Irish and so on. Go actually look at the graphic novels for both New Spring and Eye of the World because RJ had a ton of input into character designs for those. Less so for Eye since it was being prototyped when his health was failing and didn't come out til after he died but he was significantly involved in New Spring

[Corvus]

RJs casting choices could never happen because he was taking actors from different times, but it serves as a very useful view point of how he saw them in his head.





And reading the description given for the 8th ep - Season finale. For twenty years, Moiraine has dreamed and worked towards this moment. But she can't stop the Dragon Reborn from seeing the appeal of the Dark.

Say what? The appeal of the Dark? Where did that come from? Not the books certainly.

[Themius]

You realize RJ literally had cast lists of who he was seeing in his head right? He also had significant input on the graphic novels. Both you and rafe are desperate to twist the world into something it's not. It doesn't really work to go holy crap these people look so different from us when the entire world is a melting pot. What RJ did was create specific areas in terms of race and then he largely put cultures that didn't mesh with those races together. Andor outside the royal family is likely similar to Britain. The Aiel to the Irish and so on. Go actually look at the graphic novels for both New Spring and Eye of the World because RJ had a ton of input into character designs for those. Less so for Eye since it was being prototyped when his health was failing and didn't come out til after he died but he was significantly involved in New Spring

Mate what I mentioned is literally in his notes so now I am changing RJ fucking notes‽

- - - Updated - - -

RJs casting choices could never happen because he was taking actors from different times, but it serves as a very useful view point of how he saw them in his head.





And reading the description given for the 8th ep - Season finale. For twenty years, Moiraine has dreamed and worked towards this moment. But she can't stop the Dragon Reborn from seeing the appeal of the Dark.

Say what? The appeal of the Dark? Where did that come from? Not the books certainly.

Note that tuon casting wouldn’t work with his book description so even RJ would have broken his casting lol. I wonder if there would had been pitchforks for casting a brown instead of “black Porcelain “ woman.

And Perrin has curly hair. That dude has straight hair.

[Biomega]

And Perrin has curly hair. That dude has straight hair.

*looks at Sir Patrick Stewart*

Yeah I think hair is something we can fix.

[oplawlz]

It’s not key.

The red hair and light eyes are key frankly and we see the first aiel with that red hair

It absolutely is key, rand being mistaken for aiel (and his reactions to such assumptions) is hugely formative in most of his non-hometown relationships. The entire dynamic between him and Masema makes no sense otherwise, for instance.