1. #1101
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Point being, it's not one town. There's 4 different settlements and several independent farms. It's not nearly as tiny as you were seemingly making it out to be.

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    As would I. I couldn't fathom it either. But the changes they've made to the prophecies to allow it to be a man or woman don't make ANY sense to me unless they're going to do something like that. There's no reason to change the prophecies to allow it to be both of those genders if they never had any intention of making it a woman.
    I mean it makes perfect sense, doesn't it? They're just adding some extra spice to the book one mystery of "who's that poke- I mean dragon?". All they're doing is saying lol jk the Prophecies don't specify a male which isn't all that much a stretch, there's a female counterpart to the dragon to fulfill his role in some turnings anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    snip
    Yeah, I like it when people bring up that "cast list" of RJ's. Did you notice how some of them diverge from his own descriptions quite strongly? It's almost like he's just inserting some popular Hollywood names for funsies.

  2. #1102
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    I mean it makes perfect sense, doesn't it? They're just adding some extra spice to the book one mystery of "who's that poke- I mean dragon?". All they're doing is saying lol jk the Prophecies don't specify a male which isn't all that much a stretch, there's a female counterpart to the dragon to fulfill his role in some turnings anyway.

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    Yeah, I like it when people bring up that "cast list" of RJ's. Did you notice how some of them diverge from his own descriptions quite strongly? It's almost like he's just inserting some popular Hollywood names for funsies.
    Yes he's inserting popular Hollywood names into the cast lists from his notes that he didn't make public. Hair and Eye color can be fixed. What you want to look at are facial features largely.

    Also yes it's a huge stretch to claim that Gitara's foretelling as Rand was being born didn't say he while screaming he burns like the sun.

  3. #1103
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Yes he's inserting popular Hollywood names into the cast lists from his notes that he didn't make public. Hair and Eye color can be fixed. What you want to look at are facial features largely.

    Also yes it's a huge stretch to claim that Gitara's foretelling as Rand was being born didn't say he while screaming he burns like the sun.
    If it's only hair and eye colour that you think are off then I guess we can agree to disagree.

    And it's not a huge stretch to change the "he" to a "they" for the sake of some extra mystery in season one to rope in new fans. If you're gonna bend yourself out of shape to dislike the show then by all means, go nuts, but chilling out a bit and letting yourself enjoy what I presume would be a favourite book series getting translated onto TV might be fun.

  4. #1104
    I know that I excuse a lot of changes but if they change who the Dragon is in the show I will jump ship. But from the hint they showed in episode 3 (Rand breaking down the door which follows the book sort of) I still think that they are sticking with the original

  5. #1105
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Okay try reading my message again, I was saying the sources show a heavy initial engagment, the 85/80, but how long would that hold as they continue to bastardize the story? I guess you really don't care if the quality of things given to you is complete shit. I also said nothing about social progress, I just don't like when some idiotic producer thinks he knows better than a renowned author and butchers the content to get across HIS message (which is not he masses btw, even if every single member of one party agreed, it wouldn't be the majority).
    You say everything about social progress, all the time. You explicitly try not to, but it is extremely clear from context. This context is only backed up by your post history and even signiature.

    You're free to make the argument that it won't hold the initial ratings and numbers, but not based on anything objective.

  6. #1106
    To be honest, as someone who hasn't read the books, i don't think there has been a mistery about the dragon reborn to begin with. From the four kids, there is one guy that stands out (Rand), it's not a matter of who, it's a matter of when. If there is any mistery is to know what's going on with the other two. But hey, i might be wrong, as i said, i haven't read the books.
    "Mastery Haste will fix it."

  7. #1107
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    You say everything about social progress, all the time. You explicitly try not to, but it is extremely clear from context. This context is only backed up by your post history and even signiature.

    You're free to make the argument that it won't hold the initial ratings and numbers, but not based on anything objective.
    It's not social progress to fuck with an author's work. If you want to make a fanfic with everything changed then make it yourself and sell it to the network don't attach it to an IP that people actually care about. Hell that's what the author of those terrible shades book did it started out as Twilight fanfic and then they just changed the names.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    If it's only hair and eye colour that you think are off then I guess we can agree to disagree.

    And it's not a huge stretch to change the "he" to a "they" for the sake of some extra mystery in season one to rope in new fans. If you're gonna bend yourself out of shape to dislike the show then by all means, go nuts, but chilling out a bit and letting yourself enjoy what I presume would be a favourite book series getting translated onto TV might be fun.
    So Gitara said they 15 times or so in the space of 20 seconds and none of the people that Moiraine talked to while tracking down Tam had any idea of the gender of the baby either. Nope even their parents referred to them as they always. The adopted mom never talked about her bouncing baby boy or anything.

  8. #1108
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    So Gitara said they 15 times or so in the space of 20 seconds and none of the people that Moiraine talked to while tracking down Tam had any idea of the gender of the baby either. Nope even their parents referred to them as they always. The adopted mom never talked about her bouncing baby boy or anything.
    Yeah absolutely, but I'm not arguing that that's not the case in the books so you're totally right. What I'm saying is that it's not too much of a change to say that that's not how this all happened in the story that's on the TV. I don't think it's a big change to say that in terms of Gitara's foretelling and the prophecies (I actually can't remember if the prophecies cite gender, iirc I don't think the old tongue has gendered pronouns but I could be wrong) that the gender of the DR isn't known.

    And like, I guess I'd prefer they stayed more true to the source material, but if the concern is hooking in a new, wider audience (and thus increasing the chance of producing more seasons of the show) then I'm happy to roll with this whole exaggerated mystery regarding the DRs identity for the sake of getting a bigger audience into the show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    To be honest, as someone who hasn't read the books, i don't think there has been a mistery about the dragon reborn to begin with. From the four kids, there is one guy that stands out (Rand), it's not a matter of who, it's a matter of when. If there is any mistery is to know what's going on with the other two. But hey, i might be wrong, as i said, i haven't read the books.
    There's actually a decent number of polls done on reddit r.e. who people think the DR is and while the majority have sussed it out, it's typically about 40-45% of people who answer who get it wrong. So for sure it's not a perfect mystery and lots of people will think it's obvious, but I definitely think it provides intrigue for a non-trivial amount of the viewership.

  9. #1109
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    Yeah absolutely, but I'm not arguing that that's not the case in the books so you're totally right. What I'm saying is that it's not too much of a change to say that that's not how this all happened in the story that's on the TV. I don't think it's a big change to say that in terms of Gitara's foretelling and the prophecies (I actually can't remember if the prophecies cite gender, iirc I don't think the old tongue has gendered pronouns but I could be wrong) that the gender of the DR isn't known.
    It is much of a change though, because it fundamentally breaks how the world works.

    The Dragon is male. The Dragon's soul is male—as that is a property that functions that way in the WoT universe. Throughout every Age that has ever come to pass, the Dragon has always been male, and always will be. Same deal for everyone else who is ever reborn too, for that matter. To change that is to change the entire cosmic reality of how that world works. It is basically on par with going "hey by the way gravity doesn't exist in our show". To pretend that the Dragon could be anything but male changes everything.

    It's not about whether the show is better one way or the other, it is about shitting on the entire core of what makes the Wheel of Time be the Wheel of Time. To achieve... what, exactly? The writers aren't gaining anything relevant or compelling out of this at all, they're just sufficiently clueless to view it as not a big deal. It is a big deal.
    Last edited by Arikara; 2021-12-02 at 01:23 PM.

  10. #1110
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    It is much of a change though, because it fundamentally breaks how the world works.

    The Dragon is male. The Dragon's soul is male—as that is a property that functions that way in the WoT universe. Throughout every Age that has ever come to pass, the Dragon has always been male, and always will be. Same deal for everyone else who is ever reborn too, for that matter. To change that is to change the entire cosmic reality of how that world works. It is basically on par with going "hey by the way gravity doesn't exist in our show". To pretend that the Dragon could be anything but male changes everything.

    It's not about whether the show is better one way or the other, it is about shitting on the entire core of what makes the Wheel of Time be the Wheel of Time. To achieve... what, exactly? The writers aren't gaining anything relevant or compelling out of this at all, they're just sufficiently clueless to view it as not a big deal. It is a big deal.
    It's not changing that the DR is male, it's changing whether the Aes Sedai of the current age know he's male. If the DR shows up every 3k years and there are multiple society-levelling events during that time, it's easy to see how information can get lost or distorted and that's before we even throw Ishamael's shenanigans into the mix.

  11. #1111
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    It is much of a change though, because it fundamentally breaks how the world works.
    Except that only applies if the DR ends up not being male.

    That certain individuals in the series think it could be reborn into female is just a matter of interpreting prophecy in an unexpected (to the audience) way. The rest of the plot that revolves around a male DR still carries on.

    And as for the way the world works, the rules are already different. This isn't the book universe, and the character backgrounds and prophecy changes should already be clear about it not being the same world. This is one where Mats parents are neglectful and where Perrin had a wife that he accidentally kills. The world isn't the same.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-12-02 at 01:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  12. #1112
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    Change of tangent. I came across this video regarding Loial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVs5rSqJxrY

    Holy shit, I hope it's a joke or pre CGI.

  13. #1113
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    It's not changing that the DR is male, it's changing whether the Aes Sedai of the current age know he's male. If the DR shows up every 3k years and there are multiple society-levelling events during that time, it's easy to see how information can get lost or distorted and that's before we even throw Ishamael's shenanigans into the mix.
    Lots of things are lost and forgotten throughout the Ages. Not that.

    It is thoroughly established in the Third Age that people know the Dragon is male. Hell, multiple wars have already been fought as a result when some False Dragon or other declares themselves Dragon—and not just in the recent years leading up to when the books are set. It is an established fact upon which a slew of history is built upon.

    And... what? You think Ishamael wants to obscure that? Why? It isn't even within the realm of his agenda to bother trying, nor would it be within his power to succeed given that it is so thoroughly documented (also Gitara's Foretelling would have rendered any attempt moot anyway) and that he has only had two brief windows to even take any action at all (roughly once every thousand years) before the books even start, during which he was a lot more preoccupied orchestrating the Trolloc Wars and the War of a Hundred Years than... what, trying to make it slightly harder to identify the dragon? He wouldn't even have cause to care about that; Ishamael cares about the metaphysics involving the struggle between Light and Dark. He wants to kill the Dragon himself, but unlike Sammael and Demandred who are just salty at Lews Therin (and consequently Rand too), Ishamael wants the great conflict of Light battling the Dark to take place, and he wants to act as the champion of the Dark. Obscuring simple facts about the Dragon or killing him prematurely is utterly irrelevant to him.

    Also, Ages don't have a set length. The Dragon shows up when the Dragon is needed, which happens to coincide with the end of the current Age.

  14. #1114
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    snip
    I mean, none of that has to change just because in the show they don't know the DR must be male. I really feel like you're putting effort into taking issue with the show so it's probably best to agree to disagree.

    And as for Ishy, we know for sure he was acting to limit societal progression, it's not much more of a stretch for him to meddle with what the Aes Sedai of whatever time consider truth or prophecy. And he'd had motive to muddle that for the same reason Gitara was murdered, to keep those on the side of light as ignorant as possible so they can achieve their goals. Ishy wants the Dark One to win, them getting to the DR before Moiraine would've pretty much secured that.

  15. #1115
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    It is much of a change though, because it fundamentally breaks how the world works.

    The Dragon is male. The Dragon's soul is male—as that is a property that functions that way in the WoT universe. Throughout every Age that has ever come to pass, the Dragon has always been male, and always will be. Same deal for everyone else who is ever reborn too, for that matter. To change that is to change the entire cosmic reality of how that world works. It is basically on par with going "hey by the way gravity doesn't exist in our show". To pretend that the Dragon could be anything but male changes everything.

    It's not about whether the show is better one way or the other, it is about shitting on the entire core of what makes the Wheel of Time be the Wheel of Time. To achieve... what, exactly? The writers aren't gaining anything relevant or compelling out of this at all, they're just sufficiently clueless to view it as not a big deal. It is a big deal.
    You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. Either the writers aren't getting anything meaningful out of it because it is a meaningless change, or it changes EVERYTHING and thus is a meaningful change. Which is it?

    The reality is that the change is incredibly unimportant unless you have a strange vested interest in the dragon being male. Otherwise, it just doesn't matter. That's the good thing about fantasy.

  16. #1116
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. Either the writers aren't getting anything meaningful out of it because it is a meaningless change, or it changes EVERYTHING and thus is a meaningful change. Which is it?

    The reality is that the change is incredibly unimportant unless you have a strange vested interest in the dragon being male. Otherwise, it just doesn't matter. That's the good thing about fantasy.
    Uh, no. I am saying that making this change changes everything by invalidating one of the most fundamental properties of the Wheel of Time. I am also saying that by making this change, the show writers get nothing out of it except pissing off fans because the change they've made doesn't make for a better or more compelling story—on the contrary. So not only are they making a change with massive negative consequences, they also don't have a good reason to be doing so. And people are defending it... why? Perhaps you feel that it doesn't matter because you don't know any better, and somehow that passes as a valid argument?

  17. #1117
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That's exactly what 'Based on' means. This is literally semantics when 'Based on' already implies that it's not the actual source. It's literally no different than 'Inspired by'.

    You don't look at something that's based on something else and expect it to be exactly the same, otherwise it wouldn't even need to say 'based on'.

    Like if we were to talk about the Back to the Future musical being 'based on' or 'inspired by' the movie, there's literally no difference in the wording even if the musical aims to translate the movie 1:1 in musical theatre form; it's still implied that it's not the same thing as the movie and will have creative liberties taken. Or say a movie literally 'based on' true life events, the movie can take creative liberties regardless. It's not a documentary or biography.

    And circling back to points I've made all too many times, this is literally no different than how LOTR and Game of Thrones approached their respective movie/shows all while being 'based on' the original novels. There was no need to imply later seasons of GoT were simply 'Inspired by' because all the changes they made to the show, or have the Hobbit be 'Inspired by' because of all the additions and changes that never existed in the original novel. At the end of the day, we're still talking about Adaptations.
    I'm not trying to argue the semantics of "inspired by" and "based on". My point is that the title of the Wheel of Time TV show doesn't say either. The title just shows, "Wheel of Time".

    For your comparisons, Game of Thrones is extremely faithful to the books. One of the most beat for beat adaptations I've seen.
    Following major plot points, LotR is also very faithful to the books, as is the Hobbit.

    If you want to make a comparison to Egwene being the Dragon, that would be similar to plot changes where Sansa kills Dany and becomes Queen Beyond the Wall; or Arwen keeps the reforged Shards of Narcil, summons the Army of the Dead and saves Minas Tirith; or Tauriel being the one who finds the ring, riddles with Smaug, finds the Arkenstone, and brings the 5 armies together. They would become different stories, "based on" or "inspired by" the original work. Not an adaptation of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. Either the writers aren't getting anything meaningful out of it because it is a meaningless change, or it changes EVERYTHING and thus is a meaningful change. Which is it?

    The reality is that the change is incredibly unimportant unless you have a strange vested interest in the dragon being male. Otherwise, it just doesn't matter. That's the good thing about fantasy.
    Have to back what Arikara is saying. That change fundamentally breaks how the world works. Changes the history of the ages. Changes how the magic system works. The pivotal plot points of the story revolve around this. And even if we say the show writers are just trying to throw us off and the Dragon remains who they are at the end, that at least doesn't break the lore, but even that is problematic, as the Aes Sedai know the Dragon has to be male because they understand how saidar and saidin work.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  18. #1118
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I'm not trying to argue the semantics of "inspired by" and "based on". My point is that the title of the Wheel of Time TV show doesn't say either. The title just shows, "Wheel of Time".


    You mean like this?

    Literally 1:19 into the intro after the actor credits



    If you want to make a comparison to *spoiler*, that would be similar to plot changes where Sansa kills Dany and becomes Queen Beyond the Wall; or Arwen keeps the reforged Shards of Narcil, summons the Army of the Dead and saves Minas Tirith; or Tauriel being the one who finds the ring, riddles with Smaug, finds the Arkenstone, and brings the 5 armies together. They would become different stories, "based on" or "inspired by" the original work. Not an adaptation of it.
    Sure, and we can talk about that if the series takes that turn. I don't see the point in making a big deal out of potential changes that haven't actually happened yet.

    And the thing is, LOTR (and Hobbit) is still simply based on and inspired by the original work; that is literally what an adaptation means. Tauriel simply existing and having interactions with the rest of the characters is already a different story than what was in the books, you don't need her to suddenly find the ring or interact with Smaug for it to be any different than her simply existing in the story and having romantic subplot with Fili and interactions with Legolas and the Elf King. The examples you made are literally no different, and you're just describing what an adaptation already is. Even GoT already made sweeping changes, like Bran on the Iron Throne even though it makes zero sense with him already being the three eyed raven.

    I believe LOTR and Hobbit already do credit themselves being based on the respective works of J.R.R. Tolkien, it's already listed so on WIkipedia. Not quite sure why you're suggesting that 'based on' and 'inspired by' are somehow different from being adaptations... they're literally the same thing. Perhaps you are thinking of the word translation? But I'm not sure that works either, since no film or tv series is ever a translation of any book; they're always going to be adaptations.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-12-02 at 05:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #1119
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    It is much of a change though, because it fundamentally breaks how the world works.

    The Dragon is male. The Dragon's soul is male—as that is a property that functions that way in the WoT universe. Throughout every Age that has ever come to pass, the Dragon has always been male, and always will be. Same deal for everyone else who is ever reborn too, for that matter. To change that is to change the entire cosmic reality of how that world works. It is basically on par with going "hey by the way gravity doesn't exist in our show". To pretend that the Dragon could be anything but male changes everything.

    It's not about whether the show is better one way or the other, it is about shitting on the entire core of what makes the Wheel of Time be the Wheel of Time. To achieve... what, exactly? The writers aren't gaining anything relevant or compelling out of this at all, they're just sufficiently clueless to view it as not a big deal. It is a big deal.
    The makers are willing to accept that in this reality, reincarnation is a thing, but at e not willing to accept that souls are male or female and this is what determines the gender when burn

    Why? Because of social politics intersectional religion. It’s so daft.

    Even if you don’t believe in souls and binary genders, it’s actually a thing and if you write a fantasy world where this is a thing then it is.

    Changing it for social media gluts is annoying and disgraceful

  20. #1120
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. Either the writers aren't getting anything meaningful out of it because it is a meaningless change, or it changes EVERYTHING and thus is a meaningful change. Which is it?

    The reality is that the change is incredibly unimportant unless you have a strange vested interest in the dragon being male. Otherwise, it just doesn't matter. That's the good thing about fantasy.
    It's strange to have a vested interest in a bedrock element of the series remaining the same? Souls are reborn throughout the age into bodies that match they become bound to the wheel. Rafe has basically said that doesn't exist which is bedrock breaking. The Yin and Yang nature of the one power is also incredibly important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post


    You mean like this?

    Literally 1:19 into the intro after the actor credits





    Sure, and we can talk about that if the series takes that turn. I don't see the point in making a big deal out of potential changes that haven't actually happened yet.

    And the thing is, LOTR (and Hobbit) is still simply based on and inspired by the original work; that is literally what an adaptation means. Tauriel simply existing and having interactions with the rest of the characters is already a different story than what was in the books, you don't need her to suddenly find the ring or interact with Smaug for it to be any different than her simply existing in the story and having romantic subplot with Fili and interactions with Legolas and the Elf King. The examples you made are literally no different, and you're just describing what an adaptation already is. Even GoT already made sweeping changes, like Bran on the Iron Throne even though it makes zero sense with him already being the three eyed raven.

    I believe LOTR and Hobbit already do credit themselves being based on the respective works of J.R.R. Tolkien, it's already listed so on WIkipedia. Not quite sure why you're suggesting that 'based on' and 'inspired by' are somehow different from being adaptations... they're literally the same thing. Perhaps you are thinking of the word translation? But I'm not sure that works either, since no film or tv series is ever a translation of any book; they're always going to be adaptations.
    Stop putting down LoTR and the Hobbit as though they are the same type of adapt. LoTR especially the extended editions is relatively faithful to the original books the hobbit has massive sideplots added on to pad it into three movies. Even then the Hobbit is so more faithful to it's source material than this show has been so far.

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