1. #1221
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Two Rivers is isolated enough they don't even remember they are part of Andor and EF in particular hasn't seen a tax collector in generations. Two strangers is a massive huge deal so is the peddler that comes once a year. Tam having an outsider wife was a huge deal. The "old blood" is concentrated enough that Egwene and Mat have blood memories it's also why there are so many girls who can channel. I'm not going to watch 45 mins of bs. There is a reason that anytime someone is different from the "norm" they are remarked upon. It's not because the world is a giant melting pot.
    so you are going to ignore actual text (because that's what those "40 minutes of BS" are going with, ACTUAL text of the books, complemented by Jordan's interviews and notes) because apparently you just cannot take these characters looking anything but lilywhite.

    gotcha.

    (2 strangers are a big deal because they happen to be Aes Sedai and her warder, not just any old strangers)


    there is one change that while I kinda see why they might be pushing, but I also kinda see how it's probably not the best idea but I will reserve judgement for now - and that is how much they are stressing that dragon can be a woman, all the while also stressing that the problem with male channelers is that their part of the source was corrupted and that's why they go mad and are dangerous to allow to keep channeling. its kinda making me wonder, why would dragon be such a big, scary deal if women don't seem to fall to madness from channeling issues. but... I'm also guessing that they are trying to show that anyone can be darkfriend and that's why dragon reborn is a big deal.. if dark one gets to them first, they are screwed, better to take care of them before they become a problem.

    still changes the dynamic a bit, but.... it seems like in the show they are mostly going for "that's too much power for any one person" which... I think ironically might be to lessen a bit of a "men = bad, no power for jooo" vibe I was getting from original Jordan's setup.

  2. #1222


    What I wanted....

  3. #1223
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    so you are going to ignore actual text (because that's what those "40 minutes of BS" are going with, ACTUAL text of the books, complemented by Jordan's interviews and notes) because apparently you just cannot take these characters looking anything but lilywhite.

    gotcha.

    (2 strangers are a big deal because they happen to be Aes Sedai and her warder, not just any old strangers)


    there is one change that while I kinda see why they might be pushing, but I also kinda see how it's probably not the best idea but I will reserve judgement for now - and that is how much they are stressing that dragon can be a woman, all the while also stressing that the problem with male channelers is that their part of the source was corrupted and that's why they go mad and are dangerous to allow to keep channeling. its kinda making me wonder, why would dragon be such a big, scary deal if women don't seem to fall to madness from channeling issues. but... I'm also guessing that they are trying to show that anyone can be darkfriend and that's why dragon reborn is a big deal.. if dark one gets to them first, they are screwed, better to take care of them before they become a problem.

    still changes the dynamic a bit, but.... it seems like in the show they are mostly going for "that's too much power for any one person" which... I think ironically might be to lessen a bit of a "men = bad, no power for jooo" vibe I was getting from original Jordan's setup.
    You can twist words, we have RJ's cast list that's what I'm going to trust in. I'll also trust in New Spring comics since he had a huge influence on the character design in those.

    Also no the two strangers are remarked on before they have any clue who they are. Rand is super excited at the idea of two strangers reread the early eye of the world, that Moiraine is a "highborn lady" is secondary to the fact she is stranger because nobody ever comes to Two Rivers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post


    What I wanted....
    Same

    I'm re-listening to the audio books now while at work so that's nice at least. Thankfully I have the old recordings on audible not the "new one"
    Last edited by Xath; 2021-12-04 at 02:31 AM.

  4. #1224
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    so you are going to ignore actual text (because that's what those "40 minutes of BS" are going with, ACTUAL text of the books, complemented by Jordan's interviews and notes) because apparently you just cannot take these characters looking anything but lilywhite.
    They don't have to all look lilywhite...or any kinda of white. If they all looked like Egwene or all looked like Perrin, that would be perfectly acceptable. Morraine, Lan, and Egwene all looking different is fine because they are from different regions. It's just odd when they make Two Rivers look like a sample of America with a ton of racial diversity. It would be like if they had Asians and Europeans in Wakanda for the sake of making Wakanda look more like America so it could be more inclusive. It wouldn't make sense.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  5. #1225
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    They don't have to all look lilywhite...or any kinda of white. If they all looked like Egwene or all looked like Perrin, that would be perfectly acceptable. Morraine, Lan, and Egwene all looking different is fine because they are from different regions. It's just odd when they make Two Rivers look like a sample of America with a ton of racial diversity. It would be like if they had Asians and Europeans in Wakanda for the sake of making Wakanda look more like America so it could be more inclusive. It wouldn't make sense.
    maybe its because I grew up in a small country that people assume to be homogenous but its anything but that I see it differently, but self imposed isolationism of Wakanda is very VERY different from sorta out of the way but not exactly lost or forgotten Two Rivers. even in Jordan's descriptions two rivers people don't look homogenous in terms of their physical appearance. they are recognizable by their customs and their clothes mostly.

    also, poster I was replying to seems to expect characters to look like they did in a graphic novel. which itself was interpretation and not some "this is what Jordan definitively wanted them to look like" I mean apparently that comic even directly contradicts couple of book descriptions so there is that. I mean... his own cast list contradicts the character descriptions, he just picked actors that he thought could embody the characters, not the actors that looked EXACTLY like the characters.

    /shrug.

    I get being upset about implication of dragon maybe being female. I get not liking changes to backstories and the like. but it seems like some people hyper focus on... things that are IMO are not crucial to the story, like... at all.... and its very interesting, no?

  6. #1226
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    maybe its because I grew up in a small country that people assume to be homogenous but its anything but that I see it differently, but self imposed isolationism of Wakanda is very VERY different from sorta out of the way but not exactly lost or forgotten Two Rivers. even in Jordan's descriptions two rivers people don't look homogenous in terms of their physical appearance. they are recognizable by their customs and their clothes mostly.

    also, poster I was replying to seems to expect characters to look like they did in a graphic novel. which itself was interpretation and not some "this is what Jordan definitively wanted them to look like" I mean apparently that comic even directly contradicts couple of book descriptions so there is that. I mean... his own cast list contradicts the character descriptions, he just picked actors that he thought could embody the characters, not the actors that looked EXACTLY like the characters.

    /shrug.

    I get being upset about implication of dragon maybe being female. I get not liking changes to backstories and the like. but it seems like some people hyper focus on... things that are IMO are not crucial to the story, like... at all.... and its very interesting, no?
    Why does it matter if they are isolated by choice or by fate? The fact is that they are isolated.

    --also to add, the very isolated town of Two Rivers being racial diverse is not something I'm hyper focused on, nor do I let bother me, it's just something that takes me out of the immersion of the show. Just feels off. Trying to imagine some isolated town in earth middle-ages where you have a diverse group of people from every continent. /shrug.

    Also, having folks in Two Rivers who look like Rand makes him not stand out. I would argue if everyone looked like Egwene, or Perrin, or Nynaeve, that would probably be better. Rand's constantly looked at with a bit of suspicious when he says he's from Two Rivers. Not a big deal, just seems like a pointless change from the book that has no additional payoff in the show.
    Last edited by Ragedaug; 2021-12-04 at 05:13 AM.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  7. #1227
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Why does it matter if they are isolated by choice or by fate? The fact is that they are isolated.
    because... they are not actualy isolated? they are not actively isolated, they are just out of the way, but they are not in any way unreachable and people DO reach they as they also reach people.

    moreover... why do skintones bother you this much in a fantasy world where by his own admission, Jordan made Aiels gingers for no reason other then because he thought it would be a cool fun different thing to do?

    his world building had to do with cultures. not skintones.

  8. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    because... they are not actualy isolated? they are not actively isolated, they are just out of the way, but they are not in any way unreachable and people DO reach they as they also reach people.

    moreover... why do skintones bother you this much in a fantasy world where by his own admission, Jordan made Aiels gingers for no reason other then because he thought it would be a cool fun different thing to do?

    his world building had to do with cultures. not skintones.
    They are way out of the way. There's a road in, but no road out. So they don't get passing traffic. As other have noted, it's extremely rare for any outsider to visit Two Rivers, 'cause it would take weeks or months to walk there, and there's no reason to go there if you aren't a merchant. So even the merchant showed up like once a year.

    I already explained why the skin tones bother me, but you choose to ignore my answer. If I watched a bunch of white folks walking around fantasy Wakanda, I would think that's just as off. I also already said I think the folks from Two Rivers should have all been medium or dark skinned. And I have no problem with Morraine or Lan's skin in the show, because they are from different regions.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  9. #1229
    Lan.... *shakes head*

    Book-Lan is a guy that'll take on two fades at once and pity the fades....a war veteran that can be relied on to save the day.

    Show-Lan is a guy that'll cut himself shaving for sympathy. A regular joe... Certainly not someone that can countermand a king, let alone inspire and lead an army.

  10. #1230
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    There's a road in, but no road out.
    that's not how roads work lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I already explained why the skin tones bother me
    try re-reading the books and not cognitive bias-ing a bunch of white people over the actual descriptions and you might be less bothered

  11. #1231
    How is the acting and dialogue in the show? The show does good by the books ?
    I was majorly let down by Foundation, even more so after I saw Dune movie and thought how amazing Foundation could have been if they kept the quality of acting and dialogue good. The emperors was amazing, and you feel like you wanna fastforward eveyrthing else.

    I don't really care about skin tones, although it can mess up immersion if they do it wrong.

  12. #1232
    Quote Originally Posted by cface View Post
    How is the acting and dialogue in the show? The show does good by the books ?
    I was majorly let down by Foundation, even more so after I saw Dune movie and thought how amazing Foundation could have been if they kept the quality of acting and dialogue good. The emperors was amazing, and you feel like you wanna fastforward eveyrthing else.

    I don't really care about skin tones, although it can mess up immersion if they do it wrong.
    Watch the first four episodes, if you're not hooked by then then I wouldn't worry.
    I think it's very good along pretty much every axis, but there's definitely some funky pacing but all the important story beats are being hit.

  13. #1233
    Quote Originally Posted by cface View Post
    How is the acting and dialogue in the show? The show does good by the books ?
    I was majorly let down by Foundation, even more so after I saw Dune movie and thought how amazing Foundation could have been if they kept the quality of acting and dialogue good. The emperors was amazing, and you feel like you wanna fastforward eveyrthing else.

    I don't really care about skin tones, although it can mess up immersion if they do it wrong.
    Well Foundation deterred from the books because there wasn't actual material to make accurate book adaptations so they improvised alot. Wot has shit ton of material but the show decided to deter from the books alot. Missing people and different events happening in different places. First season is supposed to be the first books but they never visit Baerlon or Caemlyn. Shadar Logoth doesn't have Mordeth. Other than that, its just your regular fantasy show.

  14. #1234
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    that's not how roads work lol

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    try re-reading the books and not cognitive bias-ing a bunch of white people over the actual descriptions and you might be less bothered
    Try reading Jordan's casting list and not cognitive biasing a slice of Times Square over it. We are talking about a town so isolated they haven't seen a tax collector in generations.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cface View Post
    How is the acting and dialogue in the show? The show does good by the books ?
    I was majorly let down by Foundation, even more so after I saw Dune movie and thought how amazing Foundation could have been if they kept the quality of acting and dialogue good. The emperors was amazing, and you feel like you wanna fastforward eveyrthing else.

    I don't really care about skin tones, although it can mess up immersion if they do it wrong.
    Sub Eragon level of faithfulness to the book and medicore acting.

  15. #1235
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Try reading Jordan's casting list and not cognitive biasing a slice of Times Square over it. We are talking about a town so isolated they haven't seen a tax collector in generations.
    Try reading the books and realising RJ's casting list wasn't true to the physical descriptions.

  16. #1236
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Same

    I'm re-listening to the audio books now while at work so that's nice at least. Thankfully I have the old recordings on audible not the "new one"
    What's the difference between the two? And where can you get hold of the "old" one?

    Is the audio book any good?

  17. #1237
    Quote Originally Posted by cface View Post
    How is the acting and dialogue in the show? The show does good by the books ?
    I was majorly let down by Foundation, even more so after I saw Dune movie and thought how amazing Foundation could have been if they kept the quality of acting and dialogue good. The emperors was amazing, and you feel like you wanna fastforward eveyrthing else.
    If "Foundation" was a big disappointment then you really don't want any of this...fan fiction.
    Almost no one is as they are in the books. And entire sequences in the book aren't shown. Aes Sedai are helpless against the White Cloaks, Lan isn't the aloof, stoic "Dai'Shan" that epitomizes the warrior and warder role. He's an over-emotional idiot that barely knows how to use a sword, or so it seems. Nynaeve becomes a super healer, aoe healing dozens of serious wounds without touching anyone...and Moiraine isn't as attached to her charges as she leaves the 4 people she thinks is the Dragon to go to some minor character's funeral...(that's not in the books..something you need to get used to; added useless scenes.) Oh, and the four people mentioned? The 4th is Egwene. Apparently Moiraine doesn't know Gitara's Foretelling, neither gender or age, because the much older Logain is a 5th prospect in her eyes.

    Rafe says this is a different turning of the Wheel; that he wasn't following the books. I'd say some if the viewership is watching as a train wreck and can't seem to look away. After these first season (8 episodes) I wouldn't be surprised if that part of the viewership up and drops it.

  18. #1238
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    that's not how roads work lol
    Oookay, so let me use better words to say what I mean. There's one road to Two Rivers, it has no outlet. Meaning, it goes to Two Rivers. And stops there. Obviously I'm not saying you can't go back out the way you came in. I'm saying there's no other way out. There's no "through traffic". The road to Two Rivers is a dead end road. I choose my original words poorly, hopefully this helps. Let me know if you need any more examples of how the road that goes to Two Rivers works.

    It means there's no commerce traffic. There's no through traffic. Nobody is stopping by Two Rivers on their way to somewhere else. Two Rivers is literally a dead end, and you would only make the very long voyage if you had specific business in Two Rivers, which almost never happens.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  19. #1239
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Oookay, so let me use better words to say what I mean. There's one road to Two Rivers, it has no outlet. Meaning, it goes to Two Rivers. And stops there. Obviously I'm not saying you can't go back out the way you came in. I'm saying there's no other way out. There's no "through traffic". The road to Two Rivers is a dead end road. I choose my original words poorly, hopefully this helps. Let me know if you need any more examples of how the road that goes to Two Rivers works.

    It means there's no commerce traffic. There's no through traffic. Nobody is stopping by Two Rivers on their way to somewhere else. Two Rivers is literally a dead end, and you would only make the very long voyage if you had specific business in Two Rivers, which almost never happens.
    Those were better words, good job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Apparently Moiraine doesn't know Gitara's Foretelling, neither gender or age, because the much older Logain is a 5th prospect in her eyes.
    Or Gitara's foretelling is different in the TV show.

  20. #1240
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    try re-reading the books and not cognitive bias-ing a bunch of white people over the actual descriptions and you might be less bothered
    What are you talking about "white people". I hope you aren't trying to make a racist statement...I'm just not sure what that means. If you watch Episode 5 even Loial backs up my point. Loial knows Rand originates from the Aiel Waste, because of his hair, not Two Rivers. That's the whole point I'm making. You can't tell where someone is from based on their "hair" if most places aren't almost completely homogenous...as would be expected in a middle-ages era setting where it can take days to travel to the next town and weeks to find the next city.

    My point all along is that the people of Two Rivers (except Rand) should have been darker skinned, like Egwene, Nynaeve, or Perrin (but they have to pick one, because even though their skin tone is closer to matching, they are still ethnically diverse). So again, I'm not sure what your "white people" comment means. If the natives of Two Rivers have darker skin, that's how Rand stands out more and folks are curious or suspicious when he says he comes from Two Rivers. Nobody is questioning Rand being from Two Rivers if Two Rivers is a sampling of America's diversity, and it makes Loial kind of an idiot for his assumption.

    Loial: Ahh, your physical attributes tells me you are Aiel.
    2021 woke audience (who don't understand how pre-modern travel works): Stop being racist Loial!! You can't assume Rand's heritage!!!


    Diversity for the Aes Sedai and the Children of the Light makes sense. Lan and Moiraine being diverse makes sense, since they aren't from the same region. Having a tiny town which has next to no visitors ever being ethnically diverse, makes no sense.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

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