[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Surfd]

Which, IMO, shows a fairly distinct lack of understanding of how the Wheel actually works.

Another turning of the Wheel isn't going to produce a "nearly identical but with slight changes" version of the previous iteration. The Wheel re-uses large scale plot devices and general character beats every time the cycle repeats. It operates on very broad stroke abstracts. A repeat of the cycle sees "a hero" chosen to represent the light face off against "a champion" chosen to represent the dark. It is populated with the occasional return of noteworthy "characters", such as "female archer who falls in love with the ugly guy" or "Arthurian style hero king". But that is about as close to specific details as it gets. It does emphatically NOT just re-tell the story of "Rand-Al-Thor from The Two Rivers who this time decided to go directly to Tar-Valon instead of Caemlyn", because literally NONE of those people or places would even exist on the next turn around.

[rhorle]

Another turning of the Wheel isn't going to produce a "nearly identical but with slight changes" version of the previous iteration.

The books showed that it is possible I believe. The portal stones can link to different "worlds". Among other things one of the forsaken states, "The Pattern has infinite variation, she says, and every variation that can be, will be." about the portal worlds. They are left pretty vague but doesn't the books also show Rand, and a group of others, get stuck in a "feedback loop" of different realities with various differences? It has been a while since I read the books so the specifics might be off.

[Surfd]

The books showed that it is possible I believe. The portal stones can link to different "worlds". Among other things one of the forsaken states, "The Pattern has infinite variation, she says, and every variation that can be, will be." about the portal worlds. They are left pretty vague but doesn't the books also show Rand, and a group of others, get stuck in a "feedback loop" of different realities with various differences? It has been a while since I read the books so the specifics might be off.

Portal stones are a completely different beast compared to actual Turnings of the Wheel though, when it comes to the metaphysics of the world Jordan was building.

The Wheel spins and weaves the Pattern.
The Pattern "repeats" every time the Wheel completes a full rotation: (never ending cycle of Dark Vs Light, where occasionally Dark Wins, and occasionally Light Wins, but it always ends with a big Light Vs Dark climactic battle before beginning over again).
So the Wheel Weaves one long Pattern, that repeats, but every repetition is different: Same Theme, different Expression of said Theme.
At the same time however, any given "now" of The Pattern exists in a "multiversal" state (ie, every possible outcome that can happen, will happen, and each deviation / change creates a different, branching version of that part of the pattern at that moment).

In terms of the portal stones and the "alternate" worlds, you would be better off thinking of them like multiple copies of the Pattern stacked on top of each other, where the Portal Stone functions like a pin pushed through all of them at the same "length" mark in the pattern. Travel down the Pin a layer or two, and you find the Weave of the Pattern where Rand went left instead of right on Tuesday. Follow it down a few thousand layers, and you find one where EVERYTHING is different because Manetheren didn't fall in the Trolloc wars or something.

A full turning of the wheel is something completely different: The pattern starts over, and the themes are repeated, but everything else changes. Names, places, settings, events all are new, with only base level guidelines making up the overall "pattern" of the new turning.

It's effectively the difference between "history repeating" (ie, the Wheel going through Full Turns) and "slider's style butterfly effect stuff for alternate reality hopping", which is what they did with the portal stones.

It's also heavily implied that there is really only one "True" woven pattern, and that the "alternates" eventually fade out and disappear as they deviate farther and farther from the original.

[dwightyo39]

Lan.... *shakes head*

Book-Lan is a guy that'll take on two fades at once and pity the fades....a war veteran that can be relied on to save the day.

Show-Lan is a guy that'll cut himself shaving for sympathy. A regular joe... Certainly not someone that can countermand a king, let alone inspire and lead an army.

Yeah. Book Lan would have never had to break a sweat in any of the fights he has been in so far in the show. Hell, they even made Tam look like a generic peasant in his trollock home invasion scene.

The books gave me the impression that blade masters/warders completely outclassed everything other than better blade masters, forsaken, or the Gloam.

[Surfd]

The books gave me the impression that blade masters/warders completely outclassed everything other than better blade masters, forsaken, or the Gloam.

Yeah, the warders were usually a cut above the rest. General impression from the books was always that a group of warders would probably be a very motley crew when together, but because of their personal skill + the warder bond boosting them, they were basically death walking for almost anything they ran across.

Same thing with blade masters. A heron marked sword was no joke, and there were several instances in the book where it was made pretty clear that the rank and file military took one very seriously. Like, there was at least one instance early on when Rand is in the presence of a noble or something (might have even been the first meeting with Morgaise they skipped in the TV series) where upon noticing that he has a heron marked sword, the guards immediately went from disregarding him as a country bumpkin to being ready to literally die to the last man to protect the queen on even the off chance that he actually could be worthy of the heron mark. The mere presence of the blade and the possibility he knew how to use it made a dozen or so hardened professionals worry that they might all die trying to stop him from doing violence if he chose, and probably fail to stop him at that.

[Mace]

IT is a cultural war going on at the moment. One of the wars/battles is one on masculinity and the male identity and it's for the souls of men. Don't blame these show runners entirely, they are to some extent victims of what is going on, and while they do have a choice, they've bought into the cool aid obsessed with ratings and not thinking about what they are really doing.

They think they are helping women, but they actually not, but they are breaking society and us, not for better but for worse, falling into what is not true feminism but actually male hate. True feminism is actually very different from what is been pushed and advocated to stupid proportions, especially stuff that's been changed to preach a message and view point, rather than make new things.

I know all to well as a minority myself, how others can want to help my group/people and end up condoning very wrong behaviours and points of view in the name of "helping" us and making us better, and not being very fair to the other group or main group through that type of behaviour. This sucks and this is not good. It will not result in something good.

There is true feminism, but a lot of what is now regarded as feminism today is male hate, and what I would describe as toxic feminism, and doesn't represent freedom or equality for women but rather putting men down out of hate. It doesn't understand what being a man is about, or what being male means, and sad thing is that there is so much confusion about identity because there is toxic masculinity and it has been masquerading as masculinity, but isn't - it's just vile, inexcusable behaviour. So we have an interesting predicament.

I would say that shows like this one are diminished (certainly from the source material) /original work and tends to be far more pro female where it didn't need to be, and had o real cause except to preach this new ideology or re-assert it.. this broken view and reinforcement of negative and incorrect gender identities, especially on masculinity, which i s totally out of line. Nothing wrong with Jordan (and his wife's) portrayal in the book series. they were a good reminder to us of what things use to be like but not in a bad way or anything like that, different than now, but women aren't terrible and men misogynists, not in anyway that's nor a normal spread, it was reflecting the reality of a world, and he certainly seemed very pro female in his writing. This was totally acceptable for a world based on that setting carefully crafted by the author and all those who inputted into it.

None of it needed to change, but it did, and the fact that it did, goes to show....They've made it a fem show essentially. Something the Wheel of Time itself isn't, the changes may be minor, but it recasts the whole thing in a different light that is not just about empowering females (Jordan's work did that just fine), but putting down males also. It's not for both genders any longer. They've turned it from being a world where women lead as women, women being in charge to a world where women are basically like men. That was not Jordan and his wife were really writing. You saw situations where men where men and women were women, but women were in charge, in a realistic way given the setting. And they didn't feel less female in the books, and the spectrum was no different than you'd expect realistically in life, because some women in the story were very masculine (which happens in real life ) and some men in the story were more feminine too (this is our reality).. so why the showrunners had to change any of that stuff cannot be because the books had an unacceptable portrayal.. no they are pushing this crazy narrative they think is popular with everyone.

Yet still, they turned a well balanced book with great ideas and charm, into a blog standard 21st century production with all the social agendas and political narratives of one side. Jordan didn't skew everything in one direction. But that's the consequence and it's warped.

Some of these women purely hate men, don't be fooled because they sleep with men and aren't lesbians, also don't be fooled that they say they are feminists, they are man haters, they don't want equality, they want female dominance. They covet masculine traits and want to place them on women instead, so they fashion fantasies, rewrite stories, target the sort of things boys generally like and can be seen to blatantly swap genders, denigrate the males and transfer their qualities to the females.

They don't care about looking at feminine qualities and showing their true value and power, nor about equality of life of both men ad women. Be very warned. They are cancerous to society because their version is less. Men will always shine brightest and best as men, and women as women, and in unity and harmony, they are unstoppable, this version of identity going around is inverted, confusing and will just weaken the society who embraces.

The problem is many are confusing it as helping minorities, helping the oppressed.. open your eyes, it's one thing to help those who are truly oppressed, one thing to help make things equal , it's a totally different thing to piss on a gender or piss on are or oppose all the norms of a sexual orientation - yes I'm talking about those who claim they fight for gay rights, but equality or gay marriage is not enough, they hate straights because it's the norm.. or they've been victimised by evil straights, and now wage war against an orientation.

some of you sit down and join them thinking you are helping the oppressed, not every "help" is help, find a way to truly help those who are taken advantage of unfairly, hating and putting down others, especially blameless others or generalising an entire gender or race or is wrong.

I am black, my brother is white (same father different mother) - well technically I'm mixed race and I'm not straight, and I'm sorry, I see too many well wishes doing wrong things in order to help me, giving in to the hatred and anger of one group and allowing themselves to perpetuate injustice against another group in the name of justice or equality and achieving neither. It's just revenge, our turn now (but not the good way) because the retaliation is not justified and is not equal. Why pay back all white people for the crimes of one? isn't the best payback actually ending the conflict and inequality..rather than black supremacy over whites?

If you haven't read the book, and you watch this, you'd probably like it a lot (it's production quality is high, minus the warped view.. endemic in much of Hollywood's current releases), if you're a male and you don't mind this portrayal because either it's the norm (which it shouldn't be) or you conclude it's a show meant for girls (which the original book wasn't - the book series is really good for both genders, not one) - it would be okay even pretty good. Like a lots of shows today that show male traits on males, it's frowned upon and subsequently changed, and the males put down. Is disappointing. However it is what it is now, so take it for what it is.

What's disturbing is not that new stuff that is done this way.. it's that EVERYTHING from them now is done like this and old IPs, adaptations of older works are all "converted"...however if you think this is the first time it has happened, and you have a special rose tinted view of 80s/90s media, the same thing was done, but for different things. This is why I love old movies set in old times, they capture the ideology and mentality of the age if you ca look past the fake.. remakes in the 90s did the same thing.. Titanic is not true to the time period it happened, you have people acting like 1990s young people

[Xath]

I will say, I knew there would be changes in an adaptation. Sometimes they will add to the narrative(elves at helms deep) others negatively. I was and still am against the female dragon red herring. And yes, I still feel that it’s a red herring.

The female dragon storyline is a change, that for me, adds nothing to the narrative. In terms of the show the “who is the Dragon Reborn” slows down the story and wastes energy that could have been spent elsewhere. For instance, none of the mains trust Aes Sedai. They spent less than half of an episode with Morraine while she’s conscious. And yet, when separated they all decided to go to Tar Valon. Not one of these penniless young adults decided to go back to Emonds Field for help. They all decided to go ahead despite the show not establishing some type of bond with the mains and Morraine. They could have spent more time with the ensemble group traveling, establishing a group dynamic, and avoided two thirds of an episode dealing with a side character’s funeral just for the last 30 seconds of Nynaeve googley eyeing Lan.

The narrative is dense, so of course there will be narrative changes. I don’t know how you would fit Tel’aran’rhiod and the Seanchan in. I do oppose structural changes to how the world works. Unfortunately, they spent next to no time doing any world building or really explaining how the world works.

Honestly even if we take the bedrock breaking away there are still big issues. The story of eye is pretty well set up and they are skipping huge important chunks by ignoring both Baerlon and Caemlyn.

[Corvus]

Same thing with blade masters. A heron marked sword was no joke, and there were several instances in the book where it was made pretty clear that the rank and file military took one very seriously. Like, there was at least one instance early on when Rand is in the presence of a noble or something (might have even been the first meeting with Morgaise they skipped in the TV series) where upon noticing that he has a heron marked sword, the guards immediately went from disregarding him as a country bumpkin to being ready to literally die to the last man to protect the queen on even the off chance that he actually could be worthy of the heron mark. The mere presence of the blade and the possibility he knew how to use it made a dozen or so hardened professionals worry that they might all die trying to stop him from doing violence if he chose, and probably fail to stop him at that.

The Caemlyn adventures were some of the best part of the first book and the fact they cut it is baffling.

The scene in question is when Rand accidentally falls into the grounds of the palace and meets Elayne, heir to the throne, and Gawyn (back when both characters were likeable) and when he was discovered was taken to the throne room to see Queen Morgase (and Elaida). Also there were the Queen's Guard, the best soldiers in Andor and some of the best in all of Randland. When it is spotted he is carrying a Heronmarked Blade, they pretty much all freak out, preparing to die to defend the Queen. That is how dangerous Blademasters are meant to be.

[Tapout]

I don't think they cut it, they postponed it. They introduce so many characters who will be come major later but are only in it for a few chapters in book 1.

[Shadowferal]

I don't think they cut it, they postponed it. They introduce so many characters who will be come major later but are only in it for a few chapters in book 1.

Kicking the can down the road doesn't end. And usually means more cans getting kicked.

[Gigantique]

Kicking the can down the road doesn't end. And usually means more cans getting kicked.

I do get that the bumpkin innocent young teen Rand falling into Elayne's garden story doesn't work as well with now grown and already semi-douchey Rand in the show, but jamming the Caemlyn plots into Tar Valon is hella weird. Also, how are they planning on dealing with Mat's dagger? If they cure him there and then, what hook will they invent to have the plot of book 2 happen?

[Xath]

Which, IMO, shows a fairly distinct lack of understanding of how the Wheel actually works.

Another turning of the Wheel isn't going to produce a "nearly identical but with slight changes" version of the previous iteration. The Wheel re-uses large scale plot devices and general character beats every time the cycle repeats. It operates on very broad stroke abstracts. A repeat of the cycle sees "a hero" chosen to represent the light face off against "a champion" chosen to represent the dark. It is populated with the occasional return of noteworthy "characters", such as "female archer who falls in love with the ugly guy" or "Arthurian style hero king". But that is about as close to specific details as it gets. It does emphatically NOT just re-tell the story of "Rand-Al-Thor from The Two Rivers who this time decided to go directly to Tar-Valon instead of Caemlyn", because literally NONE of those people or places would even exist on the next turn around.

Yup the wheel turning would be massively different not a rafe fanfic

[rhorle]

Portal stones are a completely different beast compared to actual Turnings of the Wheel though, when it comes to the metaphysics of the world Jordan was building.

It was never explicitly stated what they were though right? They predated the Age of Legends and the only learned to use them through trial and error. The stones/worlds could very well just be different turnings of the wheel. You also contradict yourself. If every pattern repetition is different then "a different turning of the wheel" can produce "nearly identical but similar". Because it is still different. Which again points to the remarks about the portal stones able to show an infinite amount of possibilities even some with slight changes.

So it really just seems like nit picking a "I don't like the answer" rather then it not actually working that way.

- - - Updated - - -

Yup the wheel turning would be massively different not a rafe fanfic

Where does it say that though? Why would it be massively different? A low chance? Sure, but it is an infinite cycle so it is bound to repeat somethings at some point.

[Surfd]

You also contradict yourself. If every pattern repetition is different then "a different turning of the wheel" can produce "nearly identical but similar". Because it is still different. Which again points to the remarks about the portal stones able to show an infinite amount of possibilities even some with slight changes. [/spoiler]

So it really just seems like nit picking a "I don't like the answer" rather then it not actually working that way.

A low chance? Sure, but it is an infinite cycle so it is bound to repeat somethings at some point.

Sure, you could argue that as a technicality, but if you are going to do that, you might as well just straight up admit that what you are doing is basically tantamount to metaphysical naval-gazing in a deliberate attempt to justify your argument based on ridiculous assertions regarding probability.

Yes, since the Pattern repeats in overall theme with each full turning of the Wheel, there is eventually the possibility that some Cycles may closely resemble eachother. The chances of that happening to the degree we are talking about here though would be damn close to statistically zero. Like, you are talking about billions to the power of billions of things that would have to "closely resemble" eachother to get that close to a reproduction of a previous turning.

It would be like arguing that because there is a statistical probability of a coin toss coming up heads one billion times in a row, that it will happen twice as long as you toss that coin an infinite number of times. I mean, sure: It's statistically probable. It's just not likely to happen in any meaningfully measurable time frame.

Attempting to assert that it will happen just because you can plausibly conclude that we just need to run an infinite number of cycles of the wheel and eventually it will happen is a ridiculously weak argument.

[rhorle]

Sure, you could argue that as a technicality, but if you are going to do that, you might as well just straight up admit that what you are doing is basically tantamount to metaphysical naval-gazing in a deliberate attempt to justify your argument based on ridiculous assertions regarding probability.

So in short it is possible and not against the rules of the book. You just don't like it.

[Gigantique]

So in short it is possible and not against the rules of the book. You just don't like it.

By that logic any franchise that accepts a multiverse can do whatever it wants.

Tune in for the next exciting Spider Man movie where we follow Peter Parker as he herds camels in the Sahara desert, slowly dies to starvation and is promptly forgotten. There's an infinite amount of multiverses so you fans can't say this isn't a Spider-Man story!

[Kharadin]

By that logic any franchise that accepts a multiverse can do whatever it wants.

Tune in for the next exciting Spider Man movie where we follow Peter Parker as he herds camels in the Sahara desert, slowly dies to starvation and is promptly forgotten. There's an infinite amount of multiverses so you fans can't say this isn't a Spider-Man story!

That was an unfortunate example to use.

[Xath]

It was never explicitly stated what they were though right? They predated the Age of Legends and the only learned to use them through trial and error. The stones/worlds could very well just be different turnings of the wheel. You also contradict yourself. If every pattern repetition is different then "a different turning of the wheel" can produce "nearly identical but similar". Because it is still different. Which again points to the remarks about the portal stones able to show an infinite amount of possibilities even some with slight changes.

So it really just seems like nit picking a "I don't like the answer" rather then it not actually working that way.

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Where does it say that though? Why would it be massively different? A low chance? Sure, but it is an infinite cycle so it is bound to repeat somethings at some point.

Portal stones aren't a wheel turn they are different outcomes of the same turn. A wheel turn is a huge cataclysmic event.

[Surfd]

So in short it is possible and not against the rules of the book. You just don't like it.

It's not that I "just don't like it". It's rather that it's a ridiculously weak ass excuse for justifying a ridiculously shitty "adaptation" of the book. "It's just another Turning of the Wheel" as if Turnings of the Wheel are cheap dime store novels that mysteriously develop spelling errors and have chapters appear out of order between re-printings or something equally inane.

- - - Updated - - -

Portal stones aren't a wheel turn they are different outcomes of the same turn. A wheel turn is a huge cataclysmic event.

They aren't even different outcomes. I am pretty sure it was fairly heavily implied that they were "potential" outcomes. They were "what if's" and "might have beens". As I mentioned earlier, it was heavily suggested that there is only one "True" Weaving of the Pattern, and all the "alternates" that the portal stones connected to became more and more unstable as they deviated farther and farther from the "True" reality because they were basically reflections or echoes of the original. They were ALL basically doomed to eventually fade out and cease to exist.

Loial at one time quotes an old saying ""From Stone to Stone run the lines of "if", between the worlds that might be.""

[Aphrel]

Finally got around to start watching this. Somewhat pleasantly surprised (i was expecting a cringe shitshow given how the dialogue's in the books are).

5 episodes in and i see the showrunners have decided to deviate quite alot from the books. Understandable but somewhat worrying for the future seasons.

some thoughts:

Trollocs and the fade looked cool. Moirane and the one power looked cool. But why instantly spoil that the trader was a darkfriend?

I like that the show decided to leave it uncertain who the dragon reborn are sofar, the books did no such attempts. +1 for effort.

I like that the whitecloaks are now seen as a serious threat given that the questioner has 7 dead aes sedais under his belt. In the books the white cloaks are murderes of peasants but otherwise no threat at all to the aes sedai.

I liked most casting choices, i could instantly tell who most ppl were be4 they introduced themselves. But Egwene stands out like a sore thumb... It as if they decided to cast Legolas with Will Smith...

and WTF is that hair on Loyals head?! and isnt he supposed to have bigass ears that instantly give away his mood like the tail of a dog does.

Shadar logoth was cool by why cut it so short? No Mordeth...

Odd of them to put Kerene Nagashi in the show. Makes me wonder if the showrunners are changing the past events surrounding the late amyrlin Tamra Ospenya (and the poor fate of everyone she entrusted the secret prophecy to) or if they just drew an aes sedai name out of a bucket and decided to use it.

Also, in one scene we see the sisters talking about how unnerving it is that they cant see Logains weaves, and in the next scene Kerene sees and block two of his attacks?! Now im confused, are the show gonna make women/men see each others magic attacks or not?

It seems theyve thrown the powerrankings around. In the books Logain are freakishly strong in the one power almost at the power of the forsaken and the dragon reborn. Now it seems theyve reduced his power by half or 3x, and upped Nynaeves power quite abit. The show clearly makes her out to be far above Logain in powerlevel.

Im assuming we will be introduced to Min/Elayne/Gawyn/Galad later in the white tower from Egwenes and Nynaeves white tower storyarc.


Overall, like it, gonna keep watching. Its got a long way to go if they ever hope to beat shows like game of thrones (even accounting for horrible ending) or Vikings.

I feel what its overall lacking right now is charismatic characters. Vikings was somewhat riding on the shoulders of Ragnar and GOT had tons of super charismatic characters. Who will hold the beacon in this show? Moirane maybe... I wasnt very impressed with how they introduced Thom. Lan is following the book depiction which means hes about as charismatic as a stone.

And thank you for reading my blog lol, this became a long post xD