[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Nynax]

Except it is a terrible story. These people can't write a story if their life depended on it. Imagine the story from perspective of a non-reader. It looks pathetic. No wonder early reviews were so bad. Rewrite all you want if you can do better! Except half the story makes little sense. And worse, show is directed poorly. Pacing is off, acting is sub par, set designs and cloth are so LARP! Never-mind the "politically" correct casting choices. If story was the only issue, we could have gotten a Witcher. That show has awful story and yet episodes were fun.

This fails at every level.

Book authors spend thousands of hours to years crafting, literally crafting, their stories and characters. It is a work of art and passion to tell a story they are trying to express from inside themselves. Editors and peer reviews help them tell that story, the suggestions for rewrites are to help communicate what the author wants to tell readers. Great stories, written by great authors, is like great classical art. People can feel the effort and authenticity behind the words and characters.

Story writing for big budget film generally isn't capable of great stories, most are terrible, because authenticity doesn't exist. Instead of masterfully crafted, it's plot by committee. Instead of authentic character representation it's inclusivity, by committee. Instead of genuine struggle and consequences it's drama, by committee. I believe that literally the moment the producers think "I can do better" they begin a downward spiral of cutting and splicing hackjobs. It's like taking furniture from a classic master carpenter and deciding you can make it "just a little more modern" by chopping and sanding details off.

There is SUCH a difference between cutting or altering exposition that feels awkward or drawn out in live action vs changing fundamental aspects of the story, plot, and characters to "make it fit."

/rant

(yes I'm talking out of my ass)

[Smallfruitbat]

Book authors spend thousands of hours to years crafting, literally crafting, their stories and characters. It is a work of art and passion to tell a story they are trying to express from inside themselves. Editors and peer reviews help them tell that story, the suggestions for rewrites are to help communicate what the author wants to tell readers. Great stories, written by great authors, is like great classical art. People can feel the effort and authenticity behind the words and characters.

Story writing for big budget film generally isn't capable of great stories, most are terrible, because authenticity doesn't exist. Instead of masterfully crafted, it's plot by committee. Instead of authentic character representation it's inclusivity, by committee. Instead of genuine struggle and consequences it's drama, by committee. I believe that literally the moment the producers think "I can do better" they begin a downward spiral of cutting and splicing hackjobs. It's like taking furniture from a classic master carpenter and deciding you can make it "just a little more modern" by chopping and sanding details off.

There is SUCH a difference between cutting or altering exposition that feels awkward or drawn out in live action vs changing fundamental aspects of the story, plot, and characters to "make it fit."

/rant

(yes I'm talking out of my ass)

I don't think you're talking out of your ass. You've hit the nail on the head, most of the decisions are taken by committee.

[Beloren]

Book authors spend thousands of hours to years crafting, literally crafting, their stories and characters. It is a work of art and passion to tell a story they are trying to express from inside themselves. Editors and peer reviews help them tell that story, the suggestions for rewrites are to help communicate what the author wants to tell readers. Great stories, written by great authors, is like great classical art. People can feel the effort and authenticity behind the words and characters.

Story writing for big budget film generally isn't capable of great stories, most are terrible, because authenticity doesn't exist. Instead of masterfully crafted, it's plot by committee. Instead of authentic character representation it's inclusivity, by committee. Instead of genuine struggle and consequences it's drama, by committee. I believe that literally the moment the producers think "I can do better" they begin a downward spiral of cutting and splicing hackjobs. It's like taking furniture from a classic master carpenter and deciding you can make it "just a little more modern" by chopping and sanding details off.

There is SUCH a difference between cutting or altering exposition that feels awkward or drawn out in live action vs changing fundamental aspects of the story, plot, and characters to "make it fit."

/rant

(yes I'm talking out of my ass)

It shows you how arrogant these people are. They think they can tell your story better than you. Except they don’t care about your work, just their egos.

Look this show is good on its own, if you hadn’t read the books. M
If you read the books, it’s clear how inferior the story told in the show is and fails to deliver all the charm caveats and wisdom of the writer of the book.

Nothing needed to be changed, but oh no, they had to because…

There is a charm to wheel of time. For all the fancy effects, the show doesn’t translate. It weights things differently and you would never realise how inferior it is until you read the books


If I ignore the books I might give this show a 7/10, but after reading the book , I’d give the book 11/10

[Mace]

I think, like most things I hOllywood thee days, they got too concerned with identity and gender politics, wine was rather than doing the author’s work justice in a faithful portrayal.

If they had spent more time thinking on being about all the good things of the book rather than how much more badass we can make women and remove all these masculinity aspects in the make to show how even more woke we are, I think they would have put out an incredible show and global phenomenon.

Right now, it’s just a fairly good fantasy show, with some neat stuff, but nothing more

[Triceron]

Except it is a terrible story. These people can't write a story if their life depended on it. Imagine the story from perspective of a non-reader. It looks pathetic. No wonder early reviews were so bad. Rewrite all you want if you can do better! Except half the story makes little sense. And worse, show is directed poorly. Pacing is off, acting is sub par, set designs and cloth are so LARP! Never-mind the "politically" correct casting choices. If story was the only issue, we could have gotten a Witcher. That show has awful story and yet episodes were fun.

This fails at every level.

Pacing and exposition, I'll completely give you that.

But just curious, without comparing to the books, what exactly is terrible about the story? I'll give you that the first 3 eps were very disjointed and felt rushed, but the latest two seemed to start to head towards a common point.

[Xath]

Pacing and exposition, I'll completely give you that.

But just curious, without comparing to the books, what exactly is terrible about the story? I'll give you that the first 3 eps were very disjointed and felt rushed, but the latest two seemed to start to head towards a common point.

Do you really refuse to get that the massive differences from the book are the problem?

[Triceron]

Do you really refuse to get that the massive differences from the book are the problem?

For you, sure.

I wasn't asking your opinion on that though, was I? I take things on a case-by-case basis, and I don't assume that everyone who has criticism of the story has the same opinion as you do. I'm not as presumptuous, which is why I ask.

He clearly said "Imagine the story from perspective of a non-reader." which is what I'm asking his thoughts on. I clearly know that you couldn't even fathom that if I were to ask you.

[rhorle]

I'll give you that the first 3 eps were very disjointed and felt rushed, but the latest two seemed to start to head towards a common point.

What would that common point be? It has been nothing but a disjointed journey so far with no over all plot.

[Theangryone]

Do you really refuse to get that the massive differences from the book are the problem?

I will say, I knew there would be changes in an adaptation. Sometimes they will add to the narrative(elves at helms deep) others negatively. I was and still am against the female dragon red herring. And yes, I still feel that it’s a red herring.

The female dragon storyline is a change, that for me, adds nothing to the narrative. In terms of the show the “who is the Dragon Reborn” slows down the story and wastes energy that could have been spent elsewhere. For instance, none of the mains trust Aes Sedai. They spent less than half of an episode with Morraine while she’s conscious. And yet, when separated they all decided to go to Tar Valon. Not one of these penniless young adults decided to go back to Emonds Field for help. They all decided to go ahead despite the show not establishing some type of bond with the mains and Morraine. They could have spent more time with the ensemble group traveling, establishing a group dynamic, and avoided two thirds of an episode dealing with a side character’s funeral just for the last 30 seconds of Nynaeve googley eyeing Lan.

The narrative is dense, so of course there will be narrative changes. I don’t know how you would fit Tel’aran’rhiod and the Seanchan in. I do oppose structural changes to how the world works. Unfortunately, they spent next to no time doing any world building or really explaining how the world works.

[Triceron]

What would that common point be? It has been nothing but a disjointed journey so far with no over all plot.[

Finding the Dragon Reborn and keeping them out of the hands of the Dark One?

I'll agree the story has been disjointed as fuck, but there's still that overlying plot that's keeping everything else together. Literally nothing else but that, really.

[Shadowferal]

As I recall;

"It’s not an adaptation of the books for me; it’s an adaptation of THE NEXT time these people experience this story."

[Surfd]

Which, IMO, shows a fairly distinct lack of understanding of how the Wheel actually works.

Another turning of the Wheel isn't going to produce a "nearly identical but with slight changes" version of the previous iteration. The Wheel re-uses large scale plot devices and general character beats every time the cycle repeats. It operates on very broad stroke abstracts. A repeat of the cycle sees "a hero" chosen to represent the light face off against "a champion" chosen to represent the dark. It is populated with the occasional return of noteworthy "characters", such as "female archer who falls in love with the ugly guy" or "Arthurian style hero king". But that is about as close to specific details as it gets. It does emphatically NOT just re-tell the story of "Rand-Al-Thor from The Two Rivers who this time decided to go directly to Tar-Valon instead of Caemlyn", because literally NONE of those people or places would even exist on the next turn around.

[rhorle]

Another turning of the Wheel isn't going to produce a "nearly identical but with slight changes" version of the previous iteration.

The books showed that it is possible I believe. The portal stones can link to different "worlds". Among other things one of the forsaken states, "The Pattern has infinite variation, she says, and every variation that can be, will be." about the portal worlds. They are left pretty vague but doesn't the books also show Rand, and a group of others, get stuck in a "feedback loop" of different realities with various differences? It has been a while since I read the books so the specifics might be off.

[Surfd]

The books showed that it is possible I believe. The portal stones can link to different "worlds". Among other things one of the forsaken states, "The Pattern has infinite variation, she says, and every variation that can be, will be." about the portal worlds. They are left pretty vague but doesn't the books also show Rand, and a group of others, get stuck in a "feedback loop" of different realities with various differences? It has been a while since I read the books so the specifics might be off.

Portal stones are a completely different beast compared to actual Turnings of the Wheel though, when it comes to the metaphysics of the world Jordan was building.

The Wheel spins and weaves the Pattern.
The Pattern "repeats" every time the Wheel completes a full rotation: (never ending cycle of Dark Vs Light, where occasionally Dark Wins, and occasionally Light Wins, but it always ends with a big Light Vs Dark climactic battle before beginning over again).
So the Wheel Weaves one long Pattern, that repeats, but every repetition is different: Same Theme, different Expression of said Theme.
At the same time however, any given "now" of The Pattern exists in a "multiversal" state (ie, every possible outcome that can happen, will happen, and each deviation / change creates a different, branching version of that part of the pattern at that moment).

In terms of the portal stones and the "alternate" worlds, you would be better off thinking of them like multiple copies of the Pattern stacked on top of each other, where the Portal Stone functions like a pin pushed through all of them at the same "length" mark in the pattern. Travel down the Pin a layer or two, and you find the Weave of the Pattern where Rand went left instead of right on Tuesday. Follow it down a few thousand layers, and you find one where EVERYTHING is different because Manetheren didn't fall in the Trolloc wars or something.

A full turning of the wheel is something completely different: The pattern starts over, and the themes are repeated, but everything else changes. Names, places, settings, events all are new, with only base level guidelines making up the overall "pattern" of the new turning.

It's effectively the difference between "history repeating" (ie, the Wheel going through Full Turns) and "slider's style butterfly effect stuff for alternate reality hopping", which is what they did with the portal stones.

It's also heavily implied that there is really only one "True" woven pattern, and that the "alternates" eventually fade out and disappear as they deviate farther and farther from the original.

[dwightyo39]

Lan.... *shakes head*

Book-Lan is a guy that'll take on two fades at once and pity the fades....a war veteran that can be relied on to save the day.

Show-Lan is a guy that'll cut himself shaving for sympathy. A regular joe... Certainly not someone that can countermand a king, let alone inspire and lead an army.

Yeah. Book Lan would have never had to break a sweat in any of the fights he has been in so far in the show. Hell, they even made Tam look like a generic peasant in his trollock home invasion scene.

The books gave me the impression that blade masters/warders completely outclassed everything other than better blade masters, forsaken, or the Gloam.

[Surfd]

The books gave me the impression that blade masters/warders completely outclassed everything other than better blade masters, forsaken, or the Gloam.

Yeah, the warders were usually a cut above the rest. General impression from the books was always that a group of warders would probably be a very motley crew when together, but because of their personal skill + the warder bond boosting them, they were basically death walking for almost anything they ran across.

Same thing with blade masters. A heron marked sword was no joke, and there were several instances in the book where it was made pretty clear that the rank and file military took one very seriously. Like, there was at least one instance early on when Rand is in the presence of a noble or something (might have even been the first meeting with Morgaise they skipped in the TV series) where upon noticing that he has a heron marked sword, the guards immediately went from disregarding him as a country bumpkin to being ready to literally die to the last man to protect the queen on even the off chance that he actually could be worthy of the heron mark. The mere presence of the blade and the possibility he knew how to use it made a dozen or so hardened professionals worry that they might all die trying to stop him from doing violence if he chose, and probably fail to stop him at that.

[Mace]

IT is a cultural war going on at the moment. One of the wars/battles is one on masculinity and the male identity and it's for the souls of men. Don't blame these show runners entirely, they are to some extent victims of what is going on, and while they do have a choice, they've bought into the cool aid obsessed with ratings and not thinking about what they are really doing.

They think they are helping women, but they actually not, but they are breaking society and us, not for better but for worse, falling into what is not true feminism but actually male hate. True feminism is actually very different from what is been pushed and advocated to stupid proportions, especially stuff that's been changed to preach a message and view point, rather than make new things.

I know all to well as a minority myself, how others can want to help my group/people and end up condoning very wrong behaviours and points of view in the name of "helping" us and making us better, and not being very fair to the other group or main group through that type of behaviour. This sucks and this is not good. It will not result in something good.

There is true feminism, but a lot of what is now regarded as feminism today is male hate, and what I would describe as toxic feminism, and doesn't represent freedom or equality for women but rather putting men down out of hate. It doesn't understand what being a man is about, or what being male means, and sad thing is that there is so much confusion about identity because there is toxic masculinity and it has been masquerading as masculinity, but isn't - it's just vile, inexcusable behaviour. So we have an interesting predicament.

I would say that shows like this one are diminished (certainly from the source material) /original work and tends to be far more pro female where it didn't need to be, and had o real cause except to preach this new ideology or re-assert it.. this broken view and reinforcement of negative and incorrect gender identities, especially on masculinity, which i s totally out of line. Nothing wrong with Jordan (and his wife's) portrayal in the book series. they were a good reminder to us of what things use to be like but not in a bad way or anything like that, different than now, but women aren't terrible and men misogynists, not in anyway that's nor a normal spread, it was reflecting the reality of a world, and he certainly seemed very pro female in his writing. This was totally acceptable for a world based on that setting carefully crafted by the author and all those who inputted into it.

None of it needed to change, but it did, and the fact that it did, goes to show....They've made it a fem show essentially. Something the Wheel of Time itself isn't, the changes may be minor, but it recasts the whole thing in a different light that is not just about empowering females (Jordan's work did that just fine), but putting down males also. It's not for both genders any longer. They've turned it from being a world where women lead as women, women being in charge to a world where women are basically like men. That was not Jordan and his wife were really writing. You saw situations where men where men and women were women, but women were in charge, in a realistic way given the setting. And they didn't feel less female in the books, and the spectrum was no different than you'd expect realistically in life, because some women in the story were very masculine (which happens in real life ) and some men in the story were more feminine too (this is our reality).. so why the showrunners had to change any of that stuff cannot be because the books had an unacceptable portrayal.. no they are pushing this crazy narrative they think is popular with everyone.

Yet still, they turned a well balanced book with great ideas and charm, into a blog standard 21st century production with all the social agendas and political narratives of one side. Jordan didn't skew everything in one direction. But that's the consequence and it's warped.

Some of these women purely hate men, don't be fooled because they sleep with men and aren't lesbians, also don't be fooled that they say they are feminists, they are man haters, they don't want equality, they want female dominance. They covet masculine traits and want to place them on women instead, so they fashion fantasies, rewrite stories, target the sort of things boys generally like and can be seen to blatantly swap genders, denigrate the males and transfer their qualities to the females.

They don't care about looking at feminine qualities and showing their true value and power, nor about equality of life of both men ad women. Be very warned. They are cancerous to society because their version is less. Men will always shine brightest and best as men, and women as women, and in unity and harmony, they are unstoppable, this version of identity going around is inverted, confusing and will just weaken the society who embraces.

The problem is many are confusing it as helping minorities, helping the oppressed.. open your eyes, it's one thing to help those who are truly oppressed, one thing to help make things equal , it's a totally different thing to piss on a gender or piss on are or oppose all the norms of a sexual orientation - yes I'm talking about those who claim they fight for gay rights, but equality or gay marriage is not enough, they hate straights because it's the norm.. or they've been victimised by evil straights, and now wage war against an orientation.

some of you sit down and join them thinking you are helping the oppressed, not every "help" is help, find a way to truly help those who are taken advantage of unfairly, hating and putting down others, especially blameless others or generalising an entire gender or race or is wrong.

I am black, my brother is white (same father different mother) - well technically I'm mixed race and I'm not straight, and I'm sorry, I see too many well wishes doing wrong things in order to help me, giving in to the hatred and anger of one group and allowing themselves to perpetuate injustice against another group in the name of justice or equality and achieving neither. It's just revenge, our turn now (but not the good way) because the retaliation is not justified and is not equal. Why pay back all white people for the crimes of one? isn't the best payback actually ending the conflict and inequality..rather than black supremacy over whites?

If you haven't read the book, and you watch this, you'd probably like it a lot (it's production quality is high, minus the warped view.. endemic in much of Hollywood's current releases), if you're a male and you don't mind this portrayal because either it's the norm (which it shouldn't be) or you conclude it's a show meant for girls (which the original book wasn't - the book series is really good for both genders, not one) - it would be okay even pretty good. Like a lots of shows today that show male traits on males, it's frowned upon and subsequently changed, and the males put down. Is disappointing. However it is what it is now, so take it for what it is.

What's disturbing is not that new stuff that is done this way.. it's that EVERYTHING from them now is done like this and old IPs, adaptations of older works are all "converted"...however if you think this is the first time it has happened, and you have a special rose tinted view of 80s/90s media, the same thing was done, but for different things. This is why I love old movies set in old times, they capture the ideology and mentality of the age if you ca look past the fake.. remakes in the 90s did the same thing.. Titanic is not true to the time period it happened, you have people acting like 1990s young people

[Xath]

I will say, I knew there would be changes in an adaptation. Sometimes they will add to the narrative(elves at helms deep) others negatively. I was and still am against the female dragon red herring. And yes, I still feel that it’s a red herring.

The female dragon storyline is a change, that for me, adds nothing to the narrative. In terms of the show the “who is the Dragon Reborn” slows down the story and wastes energy that could have been spent elsewhere. For instance, none of the mains trust Aes Sedai. They spent less than half of an episode with Morraine while she’s conscious. And yet, when separated they all decided to go to Tar Valon. Not one of these penniless young adults decided to go back to Emonds Field for help. They all decided to go ahead despite the show not establishing some type of bond with the mains and Morraine. They could have spent more time with the ensemble group traveling, establishing a group dynamic, and avoided two thirds of an episode dealing with a side character’s funeral just for the last 30 seconds of Nynaeve googley eyeing Lan.

The narrative is dense, so of course there will be narrative changes. I don’t know how you would fit Tel’aran’rhiod and the Seanchan in. I do oppose structural changes to how the world works. Unfortunately, they spent next to no time doing any world building or really explaining how the world works.

Honestly even if we take the bedrock breaking away there are still big issues. The story of eye is pretty well set up and they are skipping huge important chunks by ignoring both Baerlon and Caemlyn.

[Corvus]

Same thing with blade masters. A heron marked sword was no joke, and there were several instances in the book where it was made pretty clear that the rank and file military took one very seriously. Like, there was at least one instance early on when Rand is in the presence of a noble or something (might have even been the first meeting with Morgaise they skipped in the TV series) where upon noticing that he has a heron marked sword, the guards immediately went from disregarding him as a country bumpkin to being ready to literally die to the last man to protect the queen on even the off chance that he actually could be worthy of the heron mark. The mere presence of the blade and the possibility he knew how to use it made a dozen or so hardened professionals worry that they might all die trying to stop him from doing violence if he chose, and probably fail to stop him at that.

The Caemlyn adventures were some of the best part of the first book and the fact they cut it is baffling.

The scene in question is when Rand accidentally falls into the grounds of the palace and meets Elayne, heir to the throne, and Gawyn (back when both characters were likeable) and when he was discovered was taken to the throne room to see Queen Morgase (and Elaida). Also there were the Queen's Guard, the best soldiers in Andor and some of the best in all of Randland. When it is spotted he is carrying a Heronmarked Blade, they pretty much all freak out, preparing to die to defend the Queen. That is how dangerous Blademasters are meant to be.

[Tapout]

I don't think they cut it, they postponed it. They introduce so many characters who will be come major later but are only in it for a few chapters in book 1.