1. #1521
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    According to THR Cowboy Bebop got canceled because of $$ and sharp decline in viewership. CB allegedly suffered a 59% decrease in streaming hours in its second week. I honestly have no idea what the numbers or for WoT. I will say I have a hard time believing they dropped 10 mill and episode on this. Apple’s adaptation of Foundation was 10 episodes and reportedly cost $45 mill and looked fantastic.
    Yeah, it'll be difficult to parse until the show is fully out and if they ever get around to releasing numbers or stats on what shows are most watched on Amazon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    We are 6 episodes in for WoT and so far not a single person at work is talking about it, or for that matter even seems to know the show exists, outside of two people who had already read the books.
    I agree with the lack of buzz. I don't know anyone talking about it, and the only reason I'm watching it is because of a free Amazon Prime 1 month trial that I activated for Black Friday.

  2. #1522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Why are the males so crappy in this show.. it's really getting on my nerves, it's like they sucked all the cool or greatness out of the males, and inflated the female roles even more - makes no sense.

    Egwene and Nynaeve are over inflated this early on, the boys, are pathetic, and the warder isn't cool either. Tam couldn't take out a trolloc, but every woman and her daughter in the village was able to take one down.

    Lan doesn't come off as stoic or emotionless, nor dangerous, more like a pet than a wolf.
    Because activist writers like Rafe know absolutely fuck all about nuance, only hamfisting and neutering.

  3. #1523
    Found it interesting that in an article saying it was in the top 5 streaming demand that week, it was losing to some shows (including the Mandalorian) which haven't seen any new stuff in over a year.

    Mostly though I think GoT was bottled lightning. Audiences are so atomized now that it's almost impossible that everyone is watching X
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  4. #1524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    According to THR Cowboy Bebop got canceled because of $$ and sharp decline in viewership. CB allegedly suffered a 59% decrease in streaming hours in its second week. I honestly have no idea what the numbers or for WoT. I will say I have a hard time believing they dropped 10 mill and episode on this. Apple’s adaptation of Foundation was 10 episodes and reportedly cost $45 mill and looked fantastic.
    I don't buy that at all. The show was absolutely lambasted by fans of the anime and the majority of critics (outside a few sites that tried hard to shill for it). I don't think there was much actual viewership outside of people hate-watching knowing it would be bad, only to be proven right that it was indeed, awful.

  5. #1525
    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    I, uh. I would love a good series on WoT, despite its faults it is and will likely always be *the* fantasy series for me, if mostly because I grew up reading it, wondering who killed Asmodean and all that.

    But... to do this they need to cut the story A LOT. And the question is will it still be a good story after that. This is just going to be so easy to fuck up beyond recognition.

    Also if they're looking for a GoT competitor.. this won't be it. The shock values of violence, sex, deaths of favorite characters are simply not in WoT that is much more epic fantasy with a complicated magic system that'll be incredibly difficult to visualize...
    IMO , you don’t cut the story. You sit down and figure out what it takes to actually tell the story well.

    The way Jordan wrote, each book could be two 24 episode seasons and still have action, suspense, mystery and wonder every episode. It’s that good.

    You should have sat down and planned for a 2 season Eye of the world and done the best portrayal of the book.

    Capturing the charm and wonder. Then see how people would have reacted.

    They greatly cheapened the show if you ask me

  6. #1526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Found it interesting that in an article saying it was in the top 5 streaming demand that week, it was losing to some shows (including the Mandalorian) which haven't seen any new stuff in over a year.

    Mostly though I think GoT was bottled lightning. Audiences are so atomized now that it's almost impossible that everyone is watching X
    One thing that people also should remember is that literally everyone has a streaming service now. Viewership is once again divided so if people don't like the quality of shows on one service, they can go elsewhere. Much like we wanted to get away from the crappy cable service packages which were overpriced and didn't provide content on demand, now the collective costs of having a few streaming service subscriptions means you have to focus who your providers are if you want to watch most shows.

  7. #1527
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    One thing that people also should remember is that literally everyone has a streaming service now.
    Umm..not everybody.
    I've been catching stuff off someone else's...

    ...at least until my bro said "fuck this shit" after the 4th episode.

  8. #1528
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Somewhat anecdotal indicator of how well this series is doing:

    I had read both GoT and WoT, and was fairly familiar with the types of people around my work environment who were likely to discuss them when they were only novels.

    By the 6th episode of GoT, there were at least 4 or 5 people at Work who had never heard of the Book series before who were actively talking about the show.

    We are 6 episodes in for WoT and so far not a single person at work is talking about it, or for that matter even seems to know the show exists, outside of two people who had already read the books.
    We also had about 12 brothel/sex scences this far in for game of thrones a well. Might have peaked a little interest too

  9. #1529
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Hey...but you have "travelling."
    Traveling to a fuckpad truly the most important use traveling could be put to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    IMO , you don’t cut the story. You sit down and figure out what it takes to actually tell the story well.

    The way Jordan wrote, each book could be two 24 episode seasons and still have action, suspense, mystery and wonder every episode. It’s that good.

    You should have sat down and planned for a 2 season Eye of the world and done the best portrayal of the book.

    Capturing the charm and wonder. Then see how people would have reacted.

    They greatly cheapened the show if you ask me
    Which is why an anime would be perfect give a double cour or even triple for each book and do the story over 15 some years.

  10. #1530
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Traveling to a fuckpad truly the most important use traveling could be put to.

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    Which is why an anime would be perfect give a double cour or even triple for each book and do the story over 15 some years.
    Yeh. Agreed. Jordan’s writing style quickly got you immersed into the world, it’s big issues, it’s fears, it’s beliefs. You quickly got that the world knew who the forsaken were and they were scary. The dragon reborn too. It’s the way he did the dialogues and narratives.


    This is the show they needed to invest the really hig money and plan well.

    I reckon if they had just focused on making the Eye of the Workd in two seasons it would have been so popular. It would have lasted till the end.

  11. #1531
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Yeh. Agreed. Jordan’s writing style quickly got you immersed into the world, it’s big issues, it’s fears, it’s beliefs. You quickly got that the world knew who the forsaken were and they were scary. The dragon reborn too. It’s the way he did the dialogues and narratives.


    This is the show they needed to invest the really hig money and plan well.

    I reckon if they had just focused on making the Eye of the Workd in two seasons it would have been so popular. It would have lasted till the end.
    I really think the only way to do the story is legitimately animated. It's a 15 book series that takes place over 2 years. You can't make a show like that live action humans age and all that after all.

  12. #1532
    Hmf... I definitely would have done things differently.

    Characterization comes first. A gradual building up of the world as seen through the eyes of three ta'veren. (Not this "four" rubbish) Two strangers quietly entering the village only to be revealed after a trolloc attack. I'd touch upon every chapter in some way...make an emotive connection...

    O...a budget to encompass as many episodes needed to do it right the first time even if took 25 episodes to do it proper.

    First episode would be the introduction starting off with Lews Therin...cut to present age and our cast...ending with the beginning attack.

    2nd episode would carry on to the attack sequence with the strangers revealed. When the villagers start the angry tirade against them, Moiraine would hit them with their village origin...cutscene to fabled Manethren and we see it in all its glory, the legendary battle, the common folk rallying alongside the soldiers, up to the deaths of king...then queen (the "Rose of the Sun!") even as she burned every dreadlord down.

    The 2nd episode would end with our group's departure.

    Much of the books would be the script. But a lot of the flourishes that don't add to the characterization would likely get cut. (I concede that 2-3 books would probably get consolidated)

  13. #1533
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Hmf... I definitely would have done things differently.

    Characterization comes first. A gradual building up of the world as seen through the eyes of three ta'veren. (Not this "four" rubbish) Two strangers quietly entering the village only to be revealed after a trolloc attack. I'd touch upon every chapter in some way...make an emotive connection...

    O...a budget to encompass as many episodes needed to do it right the first time even if took 25 episodes to do it proper.

    First episode would be the introduction starting off with Lews Therin...cut to present age and our cast...ending with the beginning attack.

    2nd episode would carry on to the attack sequence with the strangers revealed. When the villagers start the angry tirade against them, Moiraine would hit them with their village origin...cutscene to fabled Manethren and we see it in all its glory, the legendary battle, the common folk rallying alongside the soldiers, up to the deaths of king...then queen (the "Rose of the Sun!") even as she burned every dreadlord down.

    The 2nd episode would end with our group's departure.

    Much of the books would be the script. But a lot of the flourishes that don't add to the characterization would likely get cut. (I concede that 2-3 books would probably get consolidated)
    The first episode should have ended with Rand full of hope finally catching sight of the village and it being all in flame. Would have been so easy to do.

  14. #1534
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    The first episode should have ended with Rand full of hope finally catching sight of the village and it being all in flame. Would have been so easy to do.
    Btw.. what is with Sian's line?

    "This is my tower, my world?" Wtf? aren't Aes Sedai supposed tobe servants of all? - the White Tower looks like tyrannical power hungry women just as bad as any male tyrant.

    The books showed the Aes Sedai were good, gentled men were looked after well and given as comfortable a life as possible, it's not their fault they can challen the one power, nor that Saidin is tainted necessitating gentleness, and while Logain killed a sister, he did so when is freedom was taken from him and forced into captivity - a body like the Aes Sedai I expect to be better.


    Is it me or does this feel like a Marxist, ultra feminist re-interpretation and portrayal of the show? Is that why men are so useless and females are so manly? . I don't like this version of the white tower or of Siuan in principle.

    I did think the show was directed well, but I don't like the messaging. Robert's work was never so blatantly sexist , it felt a lot more real and balanced, this seems like it's feeding me far leftist ideology. I'm sorry, I'm gonna call it.

    Too many people here have noticed it too, I don't think it's a healthy show to promote. , It's not good feminism, and it doesn't reflect my values. I never got this from Robert Jordan's work.

  15. #1535
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I did think the show was directed well, but I don't like the messaging. Robert's work was never so blatantly sexist
    It seems that most modern TV writers have exactly one tool at their disposal, and it's a hammer - wielded with the hammiest of fists. IDK if they're afraid that no one will be intelligent enough to "get" their point unless they scream it with a bullhorn straight into their ear or what it is. But that's not how good writing is supposed to operate.

  16. #1536
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    It seems that most modern TV writers have exactly one tool at their disposal, and it's a hammer - wielded with the hammiest of fists. IDK if they're afraid that no one will be intelligent enough to "get" their point unless they scream it with a bullhorn straight into their ear or what it is. But that's not how good writing is supposed to operate.
    Spot on.. they did this in the past.. except it was white males - and it was just everywhere, if you were black or female it got labelled a "black" show or a "female" show.... and it just repeated the same messaging over.


    What is disturbing now though, is the type of messaging they are putting out. I am all for equality,, better representation etc, and though black and not straight, I am fine with shows having an all white cast, no homosexuality or men in charge. If that's what the story is about etc. Just hate when it was force fed on everything and the way they looked down on everyone else as if their interpretation or view was only important, it was wrong then, and they don't seem to have changed, just swapped positions with the same dogma and arrogance, that just seems self serving rather than doing what's right, just or fair. WE all know the studio bosses don't care about values, however some of the show runners are militant religious ideologists perpetuating destructive ideologies they aim to force their rubbish agendas on us.

    What is problematic about the messaging of the wheel of time is not that women are in charge, or even that the white tower seems a lot crueller as Beloren stated, it also how terrible every man is in the show. In reality, sometimes women are tyrannical and evil, it happens, it's not good - so it shouldn't be glorified in the show but it happens, and whiles sometimes it is women that rise up, men aren't so all round totally useless when they have good roles as they are shown here.

    I also hate the subversion of Jordan's work to push this ideology and agenda as norm. It is destructive feminism, and isn't true feminism, it is Marxist aligned and male hating rhetoric where i's just females basically doing what evil men have normal done and acting like them. one of the things I generally admire about women is that seem to be more balanced and even tempered which I feel is some thing they do better than we do, and men kinda need a bit more of that. Basically all the things I am admiring about women is taken away by these evil people, and they promote women becoming as terrible as the worse qualities we see in men. How is that better? Not to mention it's UGLY, as ugly as it is on men (arrogant, tyrannical men with no regard for life or love, power consumed and full of themselves - are not pretty , admirable or desirable - just because they have power - they're disgusting). Humility, meekness, strength under your control, courage, kindness, compassion, wisdom coupled with strength these things are things all people can have and they are incredible. The genders seem stronger on average in different aspects which is why people need each other together make up for our weaknesses, bolster our strengths.

    It just shocks me that some women really want some of the more traditionally destructive and totally evil attributes exemplified by men and think that is good because evil men covet such things..that is such a male way of doing so, they hate males so much yet a basically remaking themselves like the worse of the gender traditionally? it just makes no sense.

    This type of feminism is all about coveting and control what men have, rather than equality and harmony and freedom in society. We want equality, not equity, Equality of outcome is not true equality, it is inferior. and men and women can be different , it's okay, they can complement each other. People can be different, whether male or female, that's okay, we don't have to cut them to one size or to be the same for us to get along, we can all have our differences and make u for our short comings and enhance our strengths by that.

    We recognise who we are, and be okay about that.

    We live in a society full of celebrity culture, everyone want s to be what is popular rather than who they are, because we aren't taught to value ourselves and find the treasure in each of us. but instead to see what someone else has, and when it's good, covet it and take it from them . It's fine to emulate good qualities, tha'ts why we should shine, it's warped to go so much further we want to become the person exactly. Rather than find out who we are.


    By pandering to destructive feminism, rather than true feminism which I feel Jordan's original work is a very fair and nice piece , this show despite it's roduction value and merit falls terribly short in total. Messaging and values are important.

    it'sone thing to applaud equality, diversity and representation, it's a ttoally different thing to spit and dis on one gender or race and promote equity rather than equality.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-12-12 at 11:02 AM.

  17. #1537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Found it interesting that in an article saying it was in the top 5 streaming demand that week, it was losing to some shows (including the Mandalorian) which haven't seen any new stuff in over a year.

    Mostly though I think GoT was bottled lightning. Audiences are so atomized now that it's almost impossible that everyone is watching X
    I tend to think GoT did well because it was different and well done to start off with. Look at Squidgame and Tiger King -they both got traction because they were something different and to some degree were of the moment. There are parts of WoT, where they seem to be trying to replicate what early GoT was but it falls flat because that never was the tone of the story.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    What is problematic about the messaging of the wheel of time is not that women are in charge, or even that the white tower seems a lot crueller as Beloren stated, it also how terrible every man is in the show. In reality, sometimes women are tyrannical and evil, it happens, it's not good - so it shouldn't be glorified in the show but it happens, and whiles sometimes it is women that rise up, men aren't so all round totally useless when they have good roles as they are shown here.
    I'm having this discussion at work. In my opinion at lot of men in the books can be considered good role models -even Mat, the way he protects Olver -yes he gets a LOT wrong, but that instinct is key.

    I really dislike the way they are showing the Tower -it should have been held back for later seasons. There are already too many half formed antagonists, heaping on tower politics is just confusing. Having Siuan spit her dummy out in front of the Hall was completely out of character and all the crying, what the hell is that about? The test for the shawl involves proving that you can maintain composure under extremely stressful situations. the last part of Nynaeve and Moiraines tests were emotional hell for them. Moiraine at least kept her mask on.

    As for the last scene in the Hall. That made no sense with the Oath Rod and as to the words -as far as I'm concerned these are unearned emotional moments, which are poorly contrived.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Btw.. what is with Sian's line?

    "This is my tower, my world?" Wtf? aren't Aes Sedai supposed tobe servants of all? - the White Tower looks like tyrannical power hungry women just as bad as any male tyrant.

    The books showed the Aes Sedai were good, gentled men were looked after well and given as comfortable a life as possible, it's not their fault they can challen the one power, nor that Saidin is tainted necessitating gentleness, and while Logain killed a sister, he did so when is freedom was taken from him and forced into captivity - a body like the Aes Sedai I expect to be better.


    Is it me or does this feel like a Marxist, ultra feminist re-interpretation and portrayal of the show? Is that why men are so useless and females are so manly? . I don't like this version of the white tower or of Siuan in principle.

    I did think the show was directed well, but I don't like the messaging. Robert's work was never so blatantly sexist , it felt a lot more real and balanced, this seems like it's feeding me far leftist ideology. I'm sorry, I'm gonna call it.

    Too many people here have noticed it too, I don't think it's a healthy show to promote. , It's not good feminism, and it doesn't reflect my values. I never got this from Robert Jordan's work.
    Again, I totally agree. Even with all their scheming, the Aes Sedai went a long way to maintain the front that they are the Servants of All. I could understand them meting out some sort of punishment to Logain for raising an army but he was treated as well as could be in the books. That lent depth to the whole thing -something the show if not even attempting to do.

    The directing felt better on this one and the scene with Moiraine and Siuan alone was spot on and felt very much in character. Leane looked like she had cut holes in a sack and shoved it haphazardly over her head. Nothing elegant about her. In fact, they seem to have gone to great lengths to ignore Robert Jordans descriptions of clothing.

    The writing is another kettle of fish (and speaking of fish -where was 'Fishguts!') it continues to be poor. There are massive chunks of information that get glossed over leaving a disjointed piece that is difficult to follow.

  18. #1538
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    I tend to think GoT did well because it was different and well done to start off with. Look at Squidgame and Tiger King -they both got traction because they were something different and to some degree were of the moment. There are parts of WoT, where they seem to be trying to replicate what early GoT was but it falls flat because that never was the tone of the story.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm having this discussion at work. In my opinion at lot of men in the books can be considered good role models -even Mat, the way he protects Olver -yes he gets a LOT wrong, but that instinct is key.

    I really dislike the way they are showing the Tower -it should have been held back for later seasons. There are already too many half formed antagonists, heaping on tower politics is just confusing. Having Siuan spit her dummy out in front of the Hall was completely out of character and all the crying, what the hell is that about? The test for the shawl involves proving that you can maintain composure under extremely stressful situations. the last part of Nynaeve and Moiraines tests were emotional hell for them. Moiraine at least kept her mask on.

    As for the last scene in the Hall. That made no sense with the Oath Rod and as to the words -as far as I'm concerned these are unearned emotional moments, which are poorly contrived.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Again, I totally agree. Even with all their scheming, the Aes Sedai went a long way to maintain the front that they are the Servants of All. I could understand them meting out some sort of punishment to Logain for raising an army but he was treated as well as could be in the books. That lent depth to the whole thing -something the show if not even attempting to do.

    The directing felt better on this one and the scene with Moiraine and Siuan alone was spot on and felt very much in character. Leane looked like she had cut holes in a sack and shoved it haphazardly over her head. Nothing elegant about her. In fact, they seem to have gone to great lengths to ignore Robert Jordans descriptions of clothing.

    The writing is another kettle of fish (and speaking of fish -where was 'Fishguts!') it continues to be poor. There are massive chunks of information that get glossed over leaving a disjointed piece that is difficult to follow.
    This is not the best show runner - I'm sad to say it because there are things I do like about the show and was really excited.. but the ideology they are promoting, the fushgutting of the many golden nuggets in the book and the plot can't help but make you feel if you have read the book that this is a shadow of what it could have been. Yet, it's so nice to see a visualisation of many aspects.. while the visualisations and customs are really good, again ignoring the book totally and un-necessarily i is a bad precedent.

    Do we wait till we are in our 40s-60s to see this series done justice , true justice on the scrreen?

  19. #1539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    the "women on this show are so unattractive" is such a personal preference thing, I can't even. I think aside from Liandrin, all of the ladies in main roles are gorgeous, but that's MY opinion as a...gasp... girl.

    that said.... apparently ep 6 is the last one that Barney Harris filmed before he abruptly left production, so leaving Matt behind was NOT original writing choice but rather a matter of "crap, we cannot recast this quickly, its tail end of filming, I guess we are writing him out" thing.

    P.S. I was under impression, given how much focus they gave to the artifact on Morraine's wall is that they can only use that specific point, like a gate that needs to be open, on invitation rather then just wholesale traveling. its why they haven't seen each other in so long, because both of them have to be AT the tower AT the same time to be able to move between each others rooms. and that artifact on the wall is the portal
    It does seem like its an angreal, that they are using to "teleport" between each other, so it makes sense when it comes to the world.

    The problem is just, that teleporting is a HUGE deal in the story, it changes the world overnight and is coveted by the whole world from then on. If the Aes Sedai have angreal that make teleportation possible, then it lessens the discovery of teleporting later on. So a shame, that they did not just have a hidden path between each other.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  20. #1540
    More if a shame that it diminishes Loial's role.

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