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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I read his first book, "Wizard's First Rule," and that's all I'll read.

    Other comments from acquaintances of mine were/might be spoilers:

    [I]I stopped reading after Faith of the Fallen when Goodkind stops being a fantasy writer with Randian overtones and just makes Richard Rahl into John Galt. The rest started to degenerate into an Objectivism/rapefest. The problem with Faith of the Fallen is that it's less a fantasy novel than a philosophy lesson (it's less rapey than the last two books). I suppose you if don't mind that sort of thing it's fine however after reading the first five books and watching them slide from storytelling to ham-fisted indoctrination with a bunch of gratuitous rape scenes, S&M bodyguards, and naughty nuns thrown in it just got really tiresome.[/I]

    Well, they did say it best.



    Dumai's Wells had me nearly yelling at the book. (...and I was in a public place so that was awkward)
    But to get to that punch, the whole system and story needs to be bought into in its entirety. That's what made it so amazingly epic.
    The book has you nearly forgetting all about the newly created "Black Tower" or the Asha'man, until a hollow boom sounds in that chapter and a black coats come pouring out of a gateway..."OMFG!!11" And then the crowing words that ended that chapter so damnably well; [i]"I said you would be on equal footing with the Tower emissaries, and for bringing nine, you will be. They are on their knees, Aes Sedai. Kneel!

    Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt."[/i]

    Women never bowed to any man, until that ending.

    Random thoughts;
    Perrin coming into his own. And a master of the dream world to boot. (Dissipating balefire was awesome) Crafting a Power-wrought war-maul named for Hopper.
    Mat, the Raven Prince. And realizing what it meant to give up half of the light of the world to save the world. Damn.
    And seeing who Noal truly was, was a loose-end that I wasn't too bothered by had it passed. But now...Jain Farstrider...whoa.
    Moiraine and Thom. Did NOT see that coming.

    I just can't see any production doing the whole of it justice.
    My penultimate scene I want to see... Perrin crafting Mah'alleinir...

    but I agree with the running sentiment. History is full of bad adaptations and a couple of good. For every Harry Potter and LotR adaptation... there is an Enders Game and Dune adaptation that loses the heart of the story. I think a TV series has a better chance... but the odds of seeing the end of it in a world where popular things like Altered Carbon get canceled? Even if they nail WoT? We'll get 2 of the 20 seasons it'll take to do it justice.
    [color=blue]This thread has lived beyond its life expectancy. ... It's also met the forum quota for posters insulting the intelligence of their peers to grasp the age-old upper hand in argumentation, I believe officially coined by Plato: "Ur, like, dumb and that's why I'm right." Zarhym


  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they all around 19-20 at the start of the series?
    Late teens. By the time the series ends they're all in their early 20s.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Honestly, there are only really two BAD books in the series, like absolutely horrible. I know a lot of fans have a disdain for Winter's Heart, but I think that was the last good one that RJ wrote. Knife of Dreams and Crossroads of Twilight are basically to WoT what Twilight is to fantasy, a bunch of overly dramatic and emotional nonsense from a couple of characters, then some filler main story shit. Honestly, Perrin was probably most poorly written of all the main WoT characters, particularly towards of the series. I thought the whole Wolf realm thing was convoluted at times, not to mention his whole drama with Faile getting captured was extremely boring. Otherwise, the series was really good throughout. I know a lot of people didn't like TGS much and I believe it could have had some better character writing, but Sanderson made up for it in Towers of Midnight.
    The problem with books ~7 through ~11 is that a lot of the stories could be moved as prologue/postlogue blurbs. Queen Morgase could be a footnote as could a large chunk of other "secondary" characters that end up taking large chunks of chapters. Jordan had a flair for words... but he got bogged down in the details in the middle. The simple fact that it took half of a whole book to catch up to the previous was a symptom of an overly complex and buried in details story lines.
    [color=blue]This thread has lived beyond its life expectancy. ... It's also met the forum quota for posters insulting the intelligence of their peers to grasp the age-old upper hand in argumentation, I believe officially coined by Plato: "Ur, like, dumb and that's why I'm right." Zarhym


  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    My concern comes from an interview with Brandon Sanderson where he says that they have made one change he thinks will upset some fans. There is some speculation based on this and the casting that the series starts with Perrin married to a woman named Layla, which changes the premise somewhat from Eye of the World having 3 'boys' all of whom could be the Dragon Reborn
    but...Perrin being married, even if the wife dies early, upends an utterly massive part of his character story and growth arc. I means, does Faile just get cut entirely? If not, do they now have to fundamentally change the nature of their relationship dynamic? Perrin's innocence and inexperience were important in setting that up.

    *insert Jackie Chan confused meme*

  5. #125
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    but...Perrin being married, even if the wife dies early, upends an utterly massive part of his character story and growth arc. I means, does Faile just get cut entirely? If not, do they now have to fundamentally change the nature of their relationship dynamic? Perrin's innocence and inexperience were important in setting that up.

    *insert Jackie Chan confused meme*
    Aren't we inevitably going to run into things like this with a 1k/book 16 book series? Even if they hoped that the series would run 16 years with 1 book/season, given the tomes that Jordan wrote, some stuff has to be cut.

    I would imagine, however, that the counter point to my above is that cutting something like that which is so pivotal to each character development might be a bad sign overall.

  6. #126
    Scarab Lord Skizzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Late teens. By the time the series ends they're all in their early 20s.
    The wiki says Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all born in 978 NE and the Trolloc attack on Emond's Field happens in 998 NE. That's 20 years so they would have to be 19 at the youngest. I don't remember enough to recall if Winternight (night of the attack) happens late in the year or early but if it supposed to be a stand in for Xmas, then they would all most likely be 20 by the time of the attack.

    Btw, I only read the first 5 books before pausing and that was at least a year or two ago so I am no expert or anything.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    but...Perrin being married, even if the wife dies early, upends an utterly massive part of his character story and growth arc. I means, does Faile just get cut entirely? If not, do they now have to fundamentally change the nature of their relationship dynamic? Perrin's innocence and inexperience were important in setting that up.

    *insert Jackie Chan confused meme*
    If they do that, it would be a really weird choice. I'm not convinced that it's accurate information though, here is what I believe was the source. Will believe it when I see it.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by WernerCD View Post
    The problem with books ~7 through ~11 is that a lot of the stories could be moved as prologue/postlogue blurbs. Queen Morgase could be a footnote as could a large chunk of other "secondary" characters that end up taking large chunks of chapters. Jordan had a flair for words... but he got bogged down in the details in the middle. The simple fact that it took half of a whole book to catch up to the previous was a symptom of an overly complex and buried in details story lines.
    Or a symptom of alcoholism catching up...

    I love the WoT series - but those last few books were a slog to get through to 'anything actually happening.' Its been decades since I read them, but all I remember is spending way too many pages of people sitting around with nothing in the main plot happening (possibly the book before the catchup book ?) and being beyond sick to death that the only way Nyneave (spelling forgotten long ago lol) was ever described is 'hair-pulling' and wondering if she ever had any other emotion or act in her head other than 'hair-pulling.' I do remember the joy and excitement I felt reading the fix 6/7 books was destroyed by the last few - I can't even remember if I finished the last book at this point - because of how ramblingly boring they became.

    And as someone who has spent decades of her reading life reading multi-book fantasy series almost exclusively - to me - that's saying a lot about Jordan's writing quality. He's one of the few who managed to take the fun out of his well-developed world by the last book (for me).

    As on topic - I buy into no hype about any tv show at this point, especially about fantasy books. I'll wait and see how the first season plays out and then I'll decide if this is worth watching or skipping.
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  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Aren't we inevitably going to run into things like this with a 1k/book 16 book series? Even if they hoped that the series would run 16 years with 1 book/season, given the tomes that Jordan wrote, some stuff has to be cut.

    I would imagine, however, that the counter point to my above is that cutting something like that which is so pivotal to each character development might be a bad sign overall.
    Yeah I assumed there would be plenty of things cut, like...probably don't need a full season dedicated to Winter's Heart. But I expect them not to cut out major character beats. There's a level of, idk..., arrogance(?) when show creators are just like "we decided the author was wrong, and this character should be a different person."

    I don't even care that much if they wanna make Two Rivers suddenly multi-racial. But don't change what makes them who they are, don't change the unique struggles each character endured.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    My concern comes from an interview with Brandon Sanderson where he says that they have made one change he thinks will upset some fans. There is some speculation based on this and the casting that the series starts with Perrin married to a woman named Layla, which changes the premise somewhat from Eye of the World having 3 'boys' all of whom could be the Dragon Reborn
    That is a MASSIVE change. There are some changes that seem just tiny becuase they are a single change, but.. they are a MASSIVE change

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they all around 19-20 at the start of the series?
    I thought they were a little younger.. but they could have been that age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WernerCD View Post
    My penultimate scene I want to see... Perrin crafting Mah'alleinir...

    but I agree with the running sentiment. History is full of bad adaptations and a couple of good. For every Harry Potter and LotR adaptation... there is an Enders Game and Dune adaptation that loses the heart of the story. I think a TV series has a better chance... but the odds of seeing the end of it in a world where popular things like Altered Carbon get canceled? Even if they nail WoT? We'll get 2 of the 20 seasons it'll take to do it justice.
    If they fuck it up this early, we'd be lucky to get one. WoT had a charm to it, changing certain elements could easily erase that. I don't like the idea of a New hope happening, and the idea of what's been rumoured about Perrin is even worse. It makes any racial and gender ore ven sexual orientation changes seem trivial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WernerCD View Post
    The problem with books ~7 through ~11 is that a lot of the stories could be moved as prologue/postlogue blurbs. Queen Morgase could be a footnote as could a large chunk of other "secondary" characters that end up taking large chunks of chapters. Jordan had a flair for words... but he got bogged down in the details in the middle. The simple fact that it took half of a whole book to catch up to the previous was a symptom of an overly complex and buried in details story lines.
    7-11 can really be one p book, the actual pacing changes, it's like it's drastically slowed down with alot of explanations and description that can be shown much quicker than read.

    Besides if the show is accurate, the book can always be picked up for an in-depth exposition of what's really going on for those of the audience that want to delve deeper. it's sad though, i would like tv adaptaions to go deeper than the book would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    The wiki says Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all born in 978 NE and the Trolloc attack on Emond's Field happens in 998 NE. That's 20 years so they would have to be 19 at the youngest. I don't remember enough to recall if Winternight (night of the attack) happens late in the year or early but if it supposed to be a stand in for Xmas, then they would all most likely be 20 by the time of the attack.

    Btw, I only read the first 5 books before pausing and that was at least a year or two ago so I am no expert or anything.
    oh just seen this.. thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    but...Perrin being married, even if the wife dies early, upends an utterly massive part of his character story and growth arc. I means, does Faile just get cut entirely? If not, do they now have to fundamentally change the nature of their relationship dynamic? Perrin's innocence and inexperience were important in setting that up.

    *insert Jackie Chan confused meme*
    Totally agree. Question is would it be a good change and why make it? Is it to add more "relatable" broken family dynamics to appeal to people in such situations? Oo..we don't have representation on the main characters for this type of broken situation, let's slide it in. it's a minor change and will bring more viewers..

    I won't be surprised if they mess up so many people's works to do things like that, because some director or show runner or studio has it in their heads they have to have this type of character with this issue, and that gender or that orientation or that this, to hit this group and that group and that's the way it will be successful.

    they probably barely if at all read the source material, don't get why it's popular, but their track record shows solid numbers. they're not out to make a massive hit but would be delighted if it is, just play safe get solid numbers, tick boxes

  11. #131
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    @Beloren, I sure hope you're not a LOTR fan then

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    Or a symptom of alcoholism catching up...

    I love the WoT series - but those last few books were a slog to get through to 'anything actually happening.' Its been decades since I read them, but all I remember is spending way too many pages of people sitting around with nothing in the main plot happening (possibly the book before the catchup book ?) and being beyond sick to death that the only way Nyneave (spelling forgotten long ago lol) was ever described is 'hair-pulling' and wondering if she ever had any other emotion or act in her head other than 'hair-pulling.' I do remember the joy and excitement I felt reading the fix 6/7 books was destroyed by the last few - I can't even remember if I finished the last book at this point - because of how ramblingly boring they became.

    And as someone who has spent decades of her reading life reading multi-book fantasy series almost exclusively - to me - that's saying a lot about Jordan's writing quality. He's one of the few who managed to take the fun out of his well-developed world by the last book (for me).

    As on topic - I buy into no hype about any tv show at this point, especially about fantasy books. I'll wait and see how the first season plays out and then I'll decide if this is worth watching or skipping.
    Well we later find out that his illness meant that 1-6 were the only books he was largely writing himself.. he was heavily assisted by his wife for 7-11, before i think Brandon was brought in to finish it.

    I think I read woT 1-6 over 3 times through, possibly 4 or 5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    @Beloren, I sure hope you're not a LOTR fan then
    I really liked it, but I don't think I'm a super fan, like it, read the books a few times, but not super obsessed

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    it's one thing to use a new IP and generate stories that have more of these roles which can be good (or not) than it is too take existing IPs and just change everything. She-Ra princess of power is a classic example of how you can complete change and put out garbage for the sake of agenda politics. This is coming from a person that ticks a lot of the so called diversity boxes.

    That show was awful, but yet there are some good shows that have been slammed simply because they race swapped, gender swapped or sexual orientation swapped. i watch and enjoy those shows, but i can understand the discontent from long time fans who don't like the change. But this isn't something new.. there has always been controversy when you change characters from how they originally are. sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't, but there is always controversy,
    The new She-Ra series absolutely kicked ass though...

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Totally agree. Question is would it be a good change and why make it? Is it to add more "relatable" broken family dynamics to appeal to people in such situations? Oo..we don't have representation on the main characters for this type of broken situation, let's slide it in. it's a minor change and will bring more viewers..

    I won't be surprised if they mess up so many people's works to do things like that, because some director or show runner or studio has it in their heads they have to have this type of character with this issue, and that gender or that orientation or that this, to hit this group and that group and that's the way it will be successful.

    they probably barely if at all read the source material, don't get why it's popular, but their track record shows solid numbers. they're not out to make a massive hit but would be delighted if it is, just play safe get solid numbers, tick boxes
    My best guess is that they want to shortcut their way into why Perrin's character is careful with and/or afraid of his own strength, having something more concrete than "that's how he was raised." They would be able to lay down that foundation super early, before he kills that first Whitecloak to save hopper. Of course what that means in regards to the Whitecloak and wolves side of his story, idk...cause that's not a confrontation you can just skip either or all the whitecloaks have no reason to hate him so much.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The new She-Ra series absolutely kicked ass though...
    As a person having no problems with anyone being LGBTQ, not even defining myself, it was garbage to me. It seemed a pretext to push some weird fanfic of she-ra with catra.. that's what I got about it, where time should have been spent making the plot more interesting it seemed to obsessed with developing their relationship almost as if to stress the point, it seemed more activism and preaching than it did entertaining.

    It felt like a different show that burrowed the name she-ra and characters, then just did whatever it wanted for very poor reasons. - I've said enough. Let's just say I didn't like it much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    My best guess is that they want to shortcut their way into why Perrin's character is careful with and/or afraid of his own strength, having something more concrete than "that's how he was raised." They would be able to lay down that foundation super early, before he kills that first Whitecloak to save hopper. Of course what that means in regards to the Whitecloak and wolves side of his story, idk...cause that's not a confrontation you can just skip either or all the whitecloaks have no reason to hate him so much.
    Ah, that would do the trick.. but won't it effect other charms of his character? He's an teen-adult and gives you a very fixed view of him that leads into his arc than actually I enjoyed. I found the 3 boys actually all very good characters I was always excited to read about.. that is so rare in a book. Same for the girls. It was so much fun following nearly all the characters from whose perspective he wrote, you were always looking intensely forward for more.

    And then the mystery of the one power.. I liked that magic had a system to it, a logic of sorts, it's the most scientific magic has ever come across off in a series, actually having some sort of system with the 5 elements and the weaving, and the mystery that spoke of.

    Thinking of it brings fond and precious memories of discovering it. Makes you very protective about the material, and wonder if with all the changes the same meaning would be conveyed.

    you see I was fine with the LotR movies even though they didn't strictly followed the book, they followed it a lot closer and i think captured the spirit with which it was given nearly 100% - although after reading some critical responses from fans who hated some of the changes, I could see their point and realised I hadn't picked up on those nuances when I read the material, so wasn't that bothered , besides the substitution worked well enough.. the movies were very enjoyable and played well.

    But those guys were real pros and I heard they had the most important element for those sort of adaptation fantasy projects.. passion for the source material. So they made themselves stick closely to the original material. When you read or watch the making of commentaries and the amount of time and discussion going into bringing those pages to life, and the adjustments they made and why, you can't help but applaud the effort.

    If only they would do things like WoT and Dune with that level of passion and diligence.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    My best guess is that they want to shortcut their way into why Perrin's character is careful with and/or afraid of his own strength, having something more concrete than "that's how he was raised." They would be able to lay down that foundation super early, before he kills that first Whitecloak to save hopper. Of course what that means in regards to the Whitecloak and wolves side of his story, idk...cause that's not a confrontation you can just skip either or all the whitecloaks have no reason to hate him so much.
    The story is going to have to be stripped down a lot, I doubt even a long series could really do justice to everything that happens. The change to Perrin has me a bit concerned it will almost be unrecognisable though. It could still be a good series as the setting is fantastic and the story truly epic but I don't think they'll truly do the series justice.

  17. #137
    Perrin's inner struggle was part of his persona. It went from his realization to his connection with wolves, to marrying the daughter of the marshal-general of Saldea, to his struggle of being a leader, to mastering his own abilities in the world of dreams...all because of being ta'varen.
    And that shouldn't be cheapened.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    As a person having no problems with anyone being LGBTQ, not even defining myself, it was garbage to me. It seemed a pretext to push some weird fanfic of she-ra with catra.. that's what I got about it, where time should have been spent making the plot more interesting it seemed to obsessed with developing their relationship almost as if to stress the point, it seemed more activism and preaching than it did entertaining.

    It felt like a different show that burrowed the name she-ra and characters, then just did whatever it wanted for very poor reasons. - I've said enough. Let's just say I didn't like it much.
    As someone who watched both He-Man and She-Ra as a kid, and the New Adventures of He-Man (ugh) and the 2001 He-Man (truly awesome) and watched the original He-Man and She-Ra again when they came to Netflix... the new She-Ra was excellent. It was clearly made by someone who knew and respected the original, it added a deeper layer of mythos, added a lot of story and character progression instead of just being an evil-plot-of-the-week series and I really enjoyed the core dynamic between Adora and Catra, the way it tested weaknesses and brought out new strengths while embroiling She-Ra in ethical grey areas. The fact it made a really good job of portraying a rainbow of LGBTQ+ characters is just icing.

    Ah, that would do the trick.. but won't it effect other charms of his character? He's an teen-adult and gives you a very fixed view of him that leads into his arc than actually I enjoyed. I found the 3 boys actually all very good characters I was always excited to read about.. that is so rare in a book. Same for the girls. It was so much fun following nearly all the characters from whose perspective he wrote, you were always looking intensely forward for more.

    And then the mystery of the one power.. I liked that magic had a system to it, a logic of sorts, it's the most scientific magic has ever come across off in a series, actually having some sort of system with the 5 elements and the weaving, and the mystery that spoke of.

    Thinking of it brings fond and precious memories of discovering it. Makes you very protective about the material, and wonder if with all the changes the same meaning would be conveyed.

    you see I was fine with the LotR movies even though they didn't strictly followed the book, they followed it a lot closer and i think captured the spirit with which it was given nearly 100% - although after reading some critical responses from fans who hated some of the changes, I could see their point and realised I hadn't picked up on those nuances when I read the material, so wasn't that bothered , besides the substitution worked well enough.. the movies were very enjoyable and played well.

    But those guys were real pros and I heard they had the most important element for those sort of adaptation fantasy projects.. passion for the source material. So they made themselves stick closely to the original material. When you read or watch the making of commentaries and the amount of time and discussion going into bringing those pages to life, and the adjustments they made and why, you can't help but applaud the effort.

    If only they would do things like WoT and Dune with that level of passion and diligence.
    This is where I'm concerned about the Wheel of Time. There's an awful lot of depth to the world and events (well, if not depth then certainly breadth.) It's an absolute shit-load of detail to take in and the One Power in particular could be difficult to portray. Changing something as basic as Perrin's story worries me as I don't really see the point at all.

  19. #139
    If they change the fact that the One Power is gender specific then this is over before it started. Saidin/Saidar

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    The wiki says Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all born in 978 NE and the Trolloc attack on Emond's Field happens in 998 NE. That's 20 years so they would have to be 19 at the youngest. I don't remember enough to recall if Winternight (night of the attack) happens late in the year or early but if it supposed to be a stand in for Xmas, then they would all most likely be 20 by the time of the attack.

    Btw, I only read the first 5 books before pausing and that was at least a year or two ago so I am no expert or anything.
    That festival ushers in the spring, so early in the year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    If they change the fact that the One Power is gender specific then this is over before it started. Saidin/Saidar
    Oh I'm sure they'd love to try pulling that fan fiction grade garbage but I doubt Harriet McDougal will green light it. She's effectively one of the overseers on the show, what with being the estate holder to RJs books. And Sanderson is advising as well. It'll be very hard for them to go too far off the mark, and I hope that Harriet has no qualms with pulling the rug out from under the producers in short order.

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