[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Xath]

No, I thought it was excellent.

Considering your entire purpose here is to defend the tv show that's not surprising; for non biased people it was farcical to watch a full term pregnant women be an acrobat right before giving birth.

[Aphrel]

Why are the males so crappy in this show.. it's really getting on my nerves, it's like they sucked all the cool or greatness out of the males, and inflated the female roles even more - makes no sense.

Egwene and Nynaeve are over inflated this early on, the boys, are pathetic, and the warder isn't cool either. Tam couldn't take out a trolloc, but every woman and her daughter in the village was able to take one down.

Lan doesn't come off as stoic or emotionless, nor dangerous, more like a pet than a wolf.

hah i was thinking about that aswell with Tam struggling against a single trolloc.
Hell he should be on even ground even against a fade.

And why didnt Perrin go berzerk with the wolfs in his head and slaughter some of the children of the light... Its what he does in the books lol...

[Kharadin]

Considering your entire purpose here is to defend the tv show that's not surprising; for non biased people it was farcical to watch a full term pregnant women be an acrobat right before giving birth.

I'm not here to defend intrinsically, but yes I have a high opinion of the show so my opinions and the opinions I argue against will almost entirely be in support of the show. But I'm sure it's not impossible for me to concede a point that counts as a criticism of the show.

For example, I do think that was a bit OTT for an Aiel maiden who's both in labour and less well trained than the others (at least, according to the source material - though come to think of it idk how long Tigraine was with the Aiel before the Blood Snow). But in terms of how much I enjoyed the scene, and the audiences first impression of the skill of an Aiel compared to Westlanders, and throw in a sprinkling of the whole Aiel view on pain, I am certainly happy with it and it didn't impact my immersion.

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And why didnt Perrin go berzerk with the wolfs in his head and slaughter some of the children of the light... Its what he does in the books lol...

I think killing his waifu was the replacement for Perrin's whole guilt and create vs. destroy inner turmoil arc, so that didn't need to happen. And I think it's still kinda of in-character that Perrin's more occupied with protecting Egwene in that scene.

Also without all the inner-monologue and explaining Perrin's wolf stuff to the audience that we get in the book, it might be really hard to follow what's really going on for those who only watch the show if he were to pop off and cave in some whitecloak skulls.

[Aphrel]

Mat was given the memories of his past lives of every moment of his times of being a military leader. They were all male.

not passed lives. Just lives. memories given to him. He might have lived some of them but not all.

Some of his memories are of generals that lived at the same time and even died by each others hand the way a defeated general is executed by the victorious one honorably in the books.

[Surfd]

I feel like souls themselves being bound to a magical item makes them special, but I guess I could be wrong.

You call it reading between the lines, I call it making logical leaps. I can certainly imagine that it makes sense that being bound to the horn fixes certain things about threads and souls which is atypical, not every heroic deed or important event is constantly repeated or we'd encounter many more recurring stories/legends like that of Birgitte. But we don't, hence my interpretation being that those souls bound to the horn have more of the details of their lives being fixed than a typical soul. And I think a trait that could be either fixed or not could also include gender.

What makes you think that "not every heroic deed or important event is constantly repeated"? Birgitte and Gaidal were just one example, and like I said, there were HUNDREDS of heroes bound to the horn. Even though they were one of the more upfront examples, since Jordan took special interest in Birggitte as a character, when the Hunt was called, there were many other heroes that were mentioned by name for their famous exploits.

Also, just because Birgitte mentioned that she recalls many past lives while in the dream realm, there was never any hard and fast info given on exactly how frequently one might be "reborn" by the Wheel. Particularly powerful heroes may only get reborn once or twice an age, while others could get reborn dozens of times. It's also pretty hard to classify what exactly makes one a Hero of the Horn. I mean, Birgitte is basically known mainly for being an impressive female archer. If that's all it takes for the Horn to take a liking to you, then for all we know she could get reborn once a generation, and nobody would really notice if it could happen anywhere on the planet since it could be a dozen generations before she got reborn in the same place again.

I am pretty sure it was suggested as well that there were Heroes represented in the Hunt that nobody had any clue who they were supposed to be, likely because they were "foreign". Ie: Birgitte and Artur were noteable to the locals because they were familiar figures from local lore. Loads of the heroes called by the hunt were probably from legends and folklore of parts of the planet nobody from randland had ever heard of. Heroes from Shara beyond the wastes. Heroes from the homeland of the Sanchean definitely made an appearance given that the Sanchean clearly recognized Artur in the host summoned by the horn.

I think it's also a little bit of an understatement refering to the horn as a simple magical item. The thing is literally a world level Legendary Artifact.

[Aphrel]

I mean, he'd know how the difference between LTTs sealing and Rand's, sure, but he has zero knowledge of the original prison that was bored into in the AoL.

Interestingly, Ishy never actually turned on the Dark One, all he did was offer to body swap with Rand since he wanted death anyway. Ishy was trapped by Moiraine and Nyneave the moment he held Callandor and had no say in healping to seal the prison properly.

Further, the wiki says "Rand combined both halves of the One Power to restore the original integrity of the Dark One's prison." and I certainly take "original integrity" to mean a return to pre-bore levels.

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That fine, I just don't agree that we can extrapolate from the Dark One ressurecting those bound to him at the moment of their death in order to draw conclusions about the typical rebirth cycle of a soul. I think just them retaining their memories is enough indication of it being a different system.

Whatever the case, we're both playing around in places where we can't know for sure.

thats my interpretation aswell.

While LTT put a lid on the bore using saidin in someway (which is the reason the darkone was able to taint it and not saidar probably).

Rand actually repaired the weave, to pre-bore state.

[Surfd]

hah i was thinking about that aswell with Tam struggling against a single trolloc.

I could potentially give them Tam. I mean, yes, he earned a Heron Mark sword. He also apparently pretty much hadn't touched it in going on 20 years (if you take Rand's age in the TV series), so I can maybe excuse them as playing it down that way.

Lan on the other hand is straight up unforgivable. The guy is supposed to be literal death walking, someone who spent his entire life since he was old enough to even hold a blade learning how to kill shadowspawn. Even caught flatfooted, naked, and with just a kitchen knife, he should have had a pile of trolloc corpses around him. The show straight up violates his character.

[Xath]

I'm not here to defend intrinsically, but yes I have a high opinion of the show so my opinions and the opinions I argue against will almost entirely be in support of the show. But I'm sure it's not impossible for me to concede a point that counts as a criticism of the show.

For example, I do think that was a bit OTT for an Aiel maiden who's both in labour and less well trained than the others (at least, according to the source material - though come to think of it idk how long Tigraine was with the Aiel before the Blood Snow). But in terms of how much I enjoyed the scene, and the audiences first impression of the skill of an Aiel compared to Westlanders, and throw in a sprinkling of the whole Aiel view on pain, I am certainly happy with it and it didn't impact my immersion.

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I think killing his waifu was the replacement for Perrin's whole guilt and create vs. destroy inner turmoil arc, so that didn't need to happen. And I think it's still kinda of in-character that Perrin's more occupied with protecting Egwene in that scene.

Also without all the inner-monologue and explaining Perrin's wolf stuff to the audience that we get in the book, it might be really hard to follow what's really going on for those who only watch the show if he were to pop off and cave in some whitecloak skulls.

So it didn't impact your immersion to watch an Aiel trained warrior kill without a veil .....

[Surfd]

I think killing his waifu was the replacement for Perrin's whole guilt and create vs. destroy inner turmoil arc, so that didn't need to happen. And I think it's still kinda of in-character that Perrin's more occupied with protecting Egwene in that scene.

Also without all the inner-monologue and explaining Perrin's wolf stuff to the audience that we get in the book, it might be really hard to follow what's really going on for those who only watch the show if he were to pop off and cave in some whitecloak skulls.

The whole problem with that is that it is an entirely hamfisted approach to basically "brute forcing" the Hammer Vs Axe moral dilemma that makes up most of Perrin's entire story arc and serves as linchpin to his character development.

There are so many ways they could have done that better than simply beating us over the head with it by straight up having him accidentally murder his wife with an axe to force the point home. Hell, for that matter, have they really even touched on the whole "blacksmith" part of his character other than his initial introduction? Again, this is why skipping major scenes in the books just to do your own stupid thing is such a bad idea. I may be totally wrong (been a while since I read the books), but didn't Caemlyn have the "forge" scene, where Perrin just wanders into a local blacksmith's forge and starts helping out, and they have that bit of a heart to heart about hammer vs axe and making things vs destroying them. It was good scenes like that that helped build his character and his internal conflicts over time, which gave him some depth and nuance. Instead we got Perrin, wife murderer because the only way the showrunner seems to know to "develop" character is to beat you with it like it's a club........

As for the wolf thing. Again, they could have handled that super easily AND stayed more true to the books. Hello? Elias Machera?!? The book literally hands us a character who TELLS us what the heck is going on with Perrin. The fact that the showrunners basically seem to have forgotten he even existed is pathetic.

[Xath]

The whole problem with that is that it is an entirely hamfisted approach to basically "brute forcing" the Hammer Vs Axe moral dilemma that makes up most of Perrin's entire story arc and serves as linchpin to his character development.

There are so many ways they could have done that better than simply beating us over the head with it by straight up having him accidentally murder his wife with an axe to force the point home.

As for the wolf thing. Again, they could have handled that super easily AND stayed more true to the books. Hello? Elias Machera?!? The book literally hands us a character who TELLS us what the heck is going on with Perrin. The fact that the showrunners basically seem to have forgotten he even existed is pathetic.

Which is a real shame especially considering how Elias's backstory is later woven in.

[Shadowferal]

Dragonmount had this as leaked script for episode 8; "Where is the rest of the dragon?" I suppose we'll see in a week if true.

[UshiNoMimi]

I may be totally wrong (been a while since I read the books), but didn't Caemlyn have the "forge" scene, where Perrin just wanders into a local blacksmith's forge and starts helping out, and they have that bit of a heart to heart about hammer vs axe and making things vs destroying them.

Perrin in the Smithy is much later, as he's met Faile already when that happens.

[Kharadin]

What makes you think that "not every heroic deed or important event is constantly repeated"? Birgitte and Gaidal were just one example, and like I said, there were HUNDREDS of heroes bound to the horn.

What events did they repeat? iirc Birgitte and Gaidal never relived particular events, but rather their lives tended to always be similar. Birgitte was always some kind of soldier/adventurer/hero, she always hung out with Gaidal, although sometimes they both had different names, and their actions often made their ways into stories and songs. Did I forget anything?

If that's all it takes for the Horn to take a liking to you, then for all we know she could get reborn once a generation, and nobody would really notice if it could happen anywhere on the planet.

Sure, I'll concede that we don't really know anything about the nature of the rebirth cycle including the horn or otherwise. Most of what we're talking about is our own attempts at filling in the holes RJ doesn't tell us with the info he does, anyway.

I am pretty sure it was suggested as well that there were Heroes represented in the Hunt that nobody had any clue who they were supposed to be, likely because they were "foreign". Ie: Birgitte and Artur were noteable to the locals because they were familiar figures from local lore. Loads of the heroes called by the hunt were probably from legends and folklore of parts of the planet nobody from randland had ever heard of. Heroes from Shara beyond the wastes. Heroes from the homeland of the Sanchean definitely made an appearance given that the Sanchean clearly recognized Artur in the host summoned by the horn

I'm not entirely following here, are you saying those who joined the hunt for the horn were likely actual heroes of the horn? If that's the case that's thought had never crossed my mind and would be interested in whatever brought you to that conclusion, I always assumed they were just rando nobles, soldiers, mercs, whatever just wanting to go on a treasure hunt and get famous for the most part.

I think it's also a little bit of an understatement refering to the horn as a simple magical item. The thing is literally a world level Legendary Artifact.

Absolutely, but given my position is that souls belonging to heroes of the horn are distinctly atypical souls, I assumed playing up the power of the horn itself would support my argument. And other than it being in some songs/tales, I don't think we know anything about it's nature. An object interacting with souls is outside our knowledge of the One Power after all, so I have no real basis to pretend to understand what the horn really is. So I guess all I can say about it is it's some magical item and I think that any soul that ends up tied to it is treated differently than other souls.

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So it didn't impact your immersion to watch an Aiel trained warrior kill without a veil .....

Honestly, I was too busy to enjoying the choreography to notice. I really like the Aiel and any fight scenes that involve spears. I will rewatch later and consider, surprise/urgency is probably the only defense I can think of for that to happen otherwise that's definitely an unnecessary inaccuracy but I can't recall the scene shot by shot before I watch it again.

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snip

There's an argument for whether it was the best solution, sure, but as far as solutions to explaining a lot of Perrin's stuff that wouldn't translate to screen well I think it does the job and doesn't really change anything critical.

Other than mentioning he's a blacksmith and a dream sequence or two it hasn't really appeared much, but I think the dream sequence where he's hammering a pile of dead bodies as if working iron on an anvil says a lot with very little.

[Mace]

Espisode 7:

Again, this show continues to demonstrate they can do some really high quality stuff, but also at the same time don't have the wisdom to discern the better plot.
1. The scene of the pregnant Aiel on the snowy slopes of Dragonmount

before she birth's Rand is beautifully done. It's cool engaging, Loved the fight seen, the pregnant Aiel woman fighting was amazing. Very well done.. However... meaning and relevance? context point? it's just lumped there - how would someone know what it means? There is a time for such a cool scene, but again it's impact if you don't know the story is severely reduced when it didn't need to be. Would the discovery by watchers of what it means be equally as impactful as the order the book does the revelations in? We shall se.

[B][U]Here is my take on it:[/U][/B]
1. Un-necessary time spent.. too much time on something like that when you had much other caveats that are relevant to the plot, an depth of characters involved that you could have spent time on
2. This makes me feel again, another scene just to show women are cool.. yes I get it, it's grossly over played here. In the books, women are freaking amazing, there is lots of places they shine, but so do the men, the problem here is that we having all the cool things men do from the book removed or downplayed and only the female ones shown.. the bias is horrendous.
3. Did we need to spend so much time on the fight scene, cool as it was - I am thinking of ALL the magical, suspense, thrilling fight scenes that the narrative itself provides and the opportunities in later books that actually show how cool the maidens of the spear are.

but knowing these show runners, the male chieftains would either be ignored , not shown and all the greatest activities will be displayed by the female Maidens of the spear, un-necessary seeing the book give ample cool to both and you gotta keep it in perspective. There is a reason why men often lead the battles and rise to leadership, it's nothing to do with female hate or putting females down off course, they're stronger and faster and that's what you need to win wars whether ofr survival or conquest in a world where life can be ended, those that have the strength and power to determine it will ultimately be in control, so it's great when you see women able to do incrdible things in combat too, but when you choose to just ignore men or show them in a bad light always in comparison, it's certain bias. Not factual, and an extremist ultra feminist wet dream which is not what the Wheel of time is.

Cool scene though. Loved it, disagree with it, but loved it.

the show is wasteful, for the 1 hr length - but then as I'm not a film maker and the books are really big, I cannot judge.. all i can say is they did not do it justice. If this kinda show needed 24 episodes, then they should have given it 24 episodes to do it right.

Scene 2: The ways

1. So the Aes Sedai can open the Waygate, which isn't in the book, it's the whole point of Loial being introduced, so he uses the one power to open the gate, but can't use it to open it from the inside. So basically, the opening of the gate is an un-necessary addition in episode 6 to make Moiraine look cooler, which she doesn't need to, at the expense of Loial's importance and role.. because I guess Loial is male, and Moiraine must hug even more of the spotlight, like she isn't already cool enough being the Aes Sedai..

[B]2. Moiraine confides in Lan that if Mat is the Dragon[/B] and has that darkness she can't afford him to turn to the Dark One, yet the episode before mentions the reson they are travelling to the Eye is to stop the Dark One with the Dragon, because the dragon is the only one that can stop the Dark one, so if you are leaving Mat behind because ihe if he is the Dragon he may turn to the dark one, then why are you going forward, knowing that if mat is the dragon and the others aren't, everyone will be killed?

Flawed logic, rubbish line, hacking at an amazing literary work where the author made no such stupid logic errors, with a replacement that is inferior. These writers feel they could replace Jordan's plot with their superior biased versions, and without fail show their level of incompetence, it is seriously playing out like a CW show with higher quality graphics.

I watch those and enjoy them, they're entertaining, but trust me, they don't have logic or sense to them.

I don't like how Rand is constantly angry at Moiraine, in book 1 this is where actually he is most grateful and least resistant or stubborn. They are all wary of Aes Sedai, which is how people in the world feel, they don't know if they can trust her, all of them, this comes across somewhat in the book, but Rand is portrayed as needlessly petulant, where in the book he obviously isn't because it's kinda silly. Moiraine in the series is shown to be clearly right, therefore Rand's objections just makes him come out as dumb and "typical male having problem with female authority" which is not Rand from the books at all, his objections often if not always in the book make a lot of sense, especially from our perspective.. he isn't anywhere that angry or unreasonable, and actually he is shown to be quite clever and discerning, brave too for what is clearly his first journey. The sort of man you would want to date - he cares deeply for Egwene and is worried but in a good way like a good man is, not the trashy man boys are.. and Egwene in the novels is quite smart, very quick to point out his errors, but doesn't come across as vindictive or feeling she is superior, you totally get her, and you don't find her smarts irritating nor her character, because she isn't overloaded.

Nynaeve also has a much better entrance in the book, she isn't grossly overplayed at the expense of others, because guess what, the males in the original story are also important, and actually it's Rand that is the main protagonist of the first book - i.e. most of the story is told through his eyes, it change sin other books to other characters regardless of their level of importance.

The change in shift throws the story off balance, and these writers are no where near good enough to spin a tale that is excellent based on that rebalance. Also the rebalance is UN-NECESSARY.. Moiraine is incredible in the books without needing to "make her the focus" which as turned out to be "removing the the important roles of the men" to un-necessarily put even more on a character that was already incredible.


3. Don't like how the introduction and developing friendship of Rand and Loial was shown in the show, it has no depth, but then none of the characters do, it's just flash and bang, Aes Sedai are amazing and the female characters are amazing, but the why and how making no sense and having no depth, no balance because the male roles are omitted or dumbed down. Rand has a very likeable friendship with Loial, you need this book to like Rand, because he becomes barely likeable later on and you need his condition to empathise with him because of all the good moments you have in with him in the first 3 books, especially the first. Without that, he is a total douche bag later on, even though you kinda understand the pressure he is under.

I like the actor, I'm sorry how they are butchering the character he is playing. He is actually quite good, it's his character I don't like. Actually most of them (apart from Perrin) I quite like, although to be fair, the actor that plays Perrin doesn't do a bad job either, the character is awfully portrayed in the show, and it's not his acting.

b)the way things are special about the boys too, is not brought out well, you don't get a fraction of the wonder of Perrin's keen eyesight and wolf powers, Matt's speaking in the old tongue and the alluding to him being the fabled last King of Manetheren reborn is totally absent - only his deviancy which has a darker more crook-ish edge than loveable youthful prankster of the book. I must say the females are much cooler though, Egwene and Nynaeve come off as amazing.. I don't object to that, but note how it seems at the expense of the boys or it is over played this early, they are incredible in the books but this comes out more and more later.

c) Egwene didn't need to be a potential dragon nor Nynaeve, though the decision of that could have been to keep the dragon's identity more of a mystery, it changes a lot of the story but also imbalances it given the amount of attention thrown the girls' way.

The wonder of and mystery of the Aes Sedai in the books at the start is completely spoilt by the opening scenes in the series and teh "extras" they choose to show. the series tells you to like them, but then has scenes like Siuan behaving like a tyrant which is totally unlikeable no matter how much of a power trip man hating lesbian wet dream such a display is.

4. The effects for Machin Shin in The Ways and Mashadar in Shadar Logoth

were amazing, sadly too few of this happens in the series, this is where you expect what is shown to exceed your imagination and it succeeds here thought it fails elsewhere.

The one power channelling visual is not nice, it isn't cool, though it seems to look fancy.. by making them all white, you don't get to know whether you are wielding fire, earth or water - it looks like either air or spirit - and the way it emits from the caster is not very nice. This could have been much more impressive.

I noticed they omitted mentioning men were stronger in the power with Earth and Fire while women were with air and water - as mentioned in Book 1 - Egwene feels these are the more powerful powers - which is a very male centric view, Moiraine rightly corrects her by explaining the effectiveness of the things women are strong with that actually are a match for men - but off course mention this makes men seem strong.

Later it is revealed that men on average are much stronger with the power, but this is just a reflection of physical strength, women have advantages men to do not, men may be stronger one on one, but women out number them and can pair up better, so overall if it was a gender war, despite their strength, women would win. This is what I got from the book. though it's more a male thing to be obsessed with winning I have noticed, and always found women to be more sensible by having a bigger perspective. Wisdom > strength - and while both genders have it, women on average see better and clearer, men on average are stronger - both are necessary, but wisdom is more valuable than strength, however you need both together.

our show runners and current generation doesn't understand.

5. Loved the scene of Nynaeve's power explosion
saving them from the ways. I think it was cool, and cool moment for her. She has some incredible moments down the line, but I like this addition even tough it's totally off script. It's not that women are shown amazingly in this show that irks me, it's how terrible men are and how rubbished the roles off the guys are to push un-necessary inflations to the female roles as if to say only women can be good because this is a woman's fantasy. So divisive, it is deceptive and false state, which is bad for women, and it is disparaging and undermining of men as well, in a way the book never did. it's toxic messaging.

Still the scene is incredible, if only they were far more even and used that creative power worthily. The show would have been much better.

6. Faldarah Keep:
Notice how Lan bows so deeply, although he is a Kin himself, while the men do show him reverence, it's not the level of dignity the book portrays of the borderlands.

Interesting to make the borderlands Far East Asian instead of Caucasian. in my head, it was Tear that was Far East asian based, while the borderlands were Caucasian. Not that it matters though, I got that impression by the descriptions in the book. That mentions the eye and hair colours of Lan, and some of the northern nations. However it could be . Saldea could be Far East Asian, I got a sense of that from the descriptions - I'm fine with the change, still Lan could have worn blue contact lenses or grey to fit the description of his eyes in the book.

At least we see the top knots mentioned in the book here.
7. Min, Padan Fain, Matrim Deviaton:


I won't lie, it's fun seeing an alternate story, shame about it not being near as good as book, but it has it's merit, also damn shame about it's toxic messaging.. still it has some bright spots, and it's nice to not be able to predict hwere it would go for someone who has read the book. New things can be interesting.

I do feel show watchers are cheated of a much better story, but they have an adequate enough one being told here with cool graphics and flashy actions, but for those requiring depth and development that novels shine in, they would find the show lacking despite the eye candy of it's effects and actors.

The acting is fairly good though, definitely not a problem on that front.

8. Min

Now some drastic changes can be acceptable in my opinion, even though the book order is fine, if you are scrunching a large story into 8 episodes, there is only so much you can do and may have to drastically alter the sequence of events, as long as you convey the same thing. However some changes are totally unacceptable.

Min and Rand have a striking meet up relationship in Baerlon in the books, the Rand exposure is necessary for his character development and likeability however if you are cutting the main protagonist of the first book out for one of the second stories, it may seem to make sense, but you'd have to follow it through the whole series and that is actually an enormous change.

Still Min and Moiraine are having the conversation here, where in the books it is Rand an d Min - If eel the book version is far more exciting and more youthful adventurous, while the Moiraine open is very Game of Thrones-esque still the le only thing sad about this is the loss of Rand's character development as we know Min is one of his girlfriends down the line. This is easy to live with it doesn't alter the fabric of the story


What I'm worried about is a far bigger change, that the Dragon may be in 4 people or 5 all at once, like splitting the soul.. this is TERRIBLE writing, makes no logical sense for the philosophy of how the Wheel works, not to mention the fabric and integrity of the story. now it could have just been a let's brainstorm and consider like literally any possibility, but it seems stupid line to add if it is going now where and such things can't happen. Why mention it all, when this so doesn't happen in this fantasy? So the fact it was mentioned, and that she firmly believes by her prophecy (also an addition not in the book) that the Dragon fights the Dark one in the Eye of the World and only the Dragon survives and anyone else will certainly be killed. .this changes story fabric.

Because we know the cast are surviving for season 2, which means, that if only the Dragon survives, and they all survive, then ALL of them are the dragon - becomes a much stronger possibility and also an silly one, that makes no sense, is also pointless, and just further destroys and undermines the story of the book.

Also killing a lot of goodwill the alternate storyline may have had.

Ad why do that? Because you can't bear to have a man be the main Dragon, no a woman has to be involved in that part, despite the fact that regardless if a man is a dragon, women in the original story are in equally important roles in terms of quality of writing, engagement, and time spent, not to mention doing amazing tings which are quite likeable and incredible even if not on the scale of the dragon. The dragon in the books become s a hell of a lot less likeable and the other characters a hell of a lot more likeable, they are all actually on equal level although one is the dragon and the most powerful caster.

But no, if they change this it is another sign oh no, w can't ha man have that role it's not the man hating ultra feminist wet dream fanfic bastardization of a far superior writer's work you show runners just match in an rush through thinking you know how to handle this best. - but then this rant may be less meaningful if that's not how they run.. still. even if it isn't, it is not a good or logical song and dance, the book provides much better mystery, anticipation, build up and execution than the substitutions are providing.

You couldn't meaningfully convey a 1000 page big volume in an 8 hr run time show, , the LotR did a similar length tale in a 9 hour run time strip. it can be done. and you could have done it over 15 episodes or 13 or 21 or 24.


The dark one's release is also not very meaningful.. in the book the weight of the dark one is far more present, what it means for the dark one to be free is far more terrifying, but in the books the point of the story is not the dark one is free, but the Dragon can arise, then the shock that unfolds, the weight of that, setting up other stories, they've gone for a punchline that isn't in the books without no build up, meaning the impact of many of the discoveries in the Eye of the World are severely diminished.


9 the Eamon's Fielders dialog in the pub

Rand and Perrin over Egwene and the line "stop it you, I'm so tired of you fighting over her as if she is something you can win" - oh those men, consider women prizes they can possess - . The dialogue shows how reasonable the women are and how silly the men are. Rand's confused an bullish.. Egwene off course is right...and frankly it's not that fact that is annoying, because in the books she is right virtually all the time, it's just how stupid Rand and Perrin are portrayed to sharpen further how clever Egwene is, it's crappy dialogue writing giving guys nothing great to be on.

Sigh.

In contrast to my perception of the show, Nynaeve is gentler and softer here. In the books the others are kinda of terrified of her in the way you are of a mother or strict Headmistress or Head Girl kind of way, and he powerful stars would easily put them in their place, that sense isn't conveyed in the show, Nynaeve is different.. it's not better or worse.. but the way Nynaeve is in the book is far more essential to the role she plays and how she does it. Could she still play the same role with the change here, ofc, but it's like someone perceived the way Jordan wrote her they didn't like and so had to write her differently.

Another un-necessary change.. you don't like the bits in the writer's character, you just up and change the character because you know better or you are writing your fan fic version.

i just feel much of this Mary Suing the female characters


Part of my annoyance is because I do like a lot about the show, I obviously love the books, but I also quite like the actors they chose, they did a great job, but the writers haven't done well by them at all in the change they made to the story.. this good have been an amazing show shooting them to global stardom.

I do hope the quality of their acting would earn them more roles down the line.

10. The Big reveal
[spoiler] The final scene of Rand realising he is the dragon reborn is nice, but sadly lacks a lot of the contextual basis to make it touching and satisfying a reveal. Sure we didn't know what direction they would go, having the girls in the mix was not a good idea, however the lack of time to perhaps build their lines up could be used as an excuse, however they have ample screen time, more than Rand and the boys do.

The way the male characters are portrayed you are surprised they have any meaningful impact , but if they would hold any relevance it would either be as a big bad.

Still I enjoyed the scene, that it was Rand that actually channelled to shield Egwene was hidden well.. however I don't recall the show mentioning that the dragon reborn had to be born outside the two rivers - so that fact never played a role, lessening the impact of the reveal that he was (but may be they did mention it, don't remember now.

Now showing how Rand broke through the dark friends trap in Baerlon ( a much inferior scene to the one written in the book for Baerlon) but saying that the scene was quite powerful too - if you've shown the Whitecloaks before and will show insane they can be in your made up scene later, you don't need to show the Baerlon encounter.. however Bornhald is an important minor character, and the introduction of the Whitecloaks fits the tone and pace of the book. The change is definitely more game of Thornesesque..which is a total mistake, the Wheel of Time stands exceptional well on it's own as it's own against both the Lord of the Rings and the Game of Thrones, it doesn't need to be either to be popular.

They seriously blundered there, and I think actually it would have been a show for the the decade to capture the hearts and imagination of people.

they ruined it by turning it into a power play , ultra feminist wet dream messaging show. Despite all the other outstanding pieces of work in the production..

there is a reason the Wheel of Time and it's massive volumes are an international best seller, and Children like me were captivated, reading the whole thing... AS A CHILD.. .it is not normal to be able to read a 1000 page book , the story in the book was THAT good. You don't need to be the Game of Thrones or the Lord of the Rings.


Rand's the dragorn reborn, but his character is not likeable, is very shallow and has for the most part being portrayed as a fitful angry boy. He does play it well, but the direction is unfortunate, Rand in the book is so much better, the actor deserves to have been written the part the original story gives his character.

It just sucks to be a white straight male in Hollywood or in any of the stories that biased crowd want to tell. Bad timing.. 5 years earlier, it would have been a totally different thing. Shame.


Conclusion
While I enjoyed the episode somewhat despite my utter rejection of the messaging of their alterations, I still feel again it goes too slow, too much dialogue, and the one action scene at the start.. It was a cool action scene, and the dialogues are meaningful, i can understand why things are shifted around the way they are with Min meeting in the north instead - still thing sticking to the book would have been far more rewarding. and better balanced.

Whiles it is an entertaining watch, it is clear the balance is not as good as the books and you get a sense that the time on the scenes and what they show are often enough mis-managed or rather could have been used better., even much better to actually convey a far deeper and more compelling story that also had all the fantasy and magic bits.

Min's viewings were disappointing, like they didn't have the budget to make the way she saw things fancy. It isn't in accurate, but I expected more.

- - - Updated - - -

hah i was thinking about that aswell with Tam struggling against a single trolloc.
Hell he should be on even ground even against a fade.

And why didnt Perrin go berzerk with the wolfs in his head and slaughter some of the children of the light... Its what he does in the books lol...

Cos Egwene had to be shown as stronger again, no time to show Perrin, he's male, and the ultra feminists int he writing room can't bare to have that positive light on a man, if it's ssrong and good it's gots to be woooman only.

[Surfd]

What events did they repeat? iirc Birgitte and Gaidal never relived particular events, but rather their lives tended to always be similar. Birgitte was always some kind of soldier/adventurer/hero, she always hung out with Gaidal, although sometimes they both had different names, and their actions often made their ways into stories and songs. Did I forget anything?

Sorry, super late / early here and I really should have been in bed hours ago.

Never intended to imply that they repeat specific events, but rather that they are reborn to do the same "thing" each time, just with a slightly different coat of paint each time. Birgitte is bound to the Wheel because the Wheel sometimes wants / needs to use an Archer fitting her archetype. So it chose to hold on to her, and keeps re-using her whenever it suits it's fancy. Same thing for every other Thread bound to the Wheel. If the wheel decides it needs the tragic Arthurian king, it spits out Artur Hawkwing. We really have no idea why the Wheel keeps certain Threads around when it obviously doesn't re-use like 99% of them, so we can only make assumptions, but I would guess that there is something they do during their original "prime" incarnation that distinguishes them as extraordinary (like, they wouldn't be "heroes" otherwise") which separates them from the run of the mill Threads who just live out a basic existence and then fade out, so the Wheel keeps them around.

I'm not entirely following here, are you saying those who joined the hunt for the horn were likely actual heroes of the horn? If that's the case that's thought had never crossed my mind and would be interested in whatever brought you to that conclusion, I always assumed they were just rando nobles, soldiers, mercs, whatever just wanting to go on a treasure hunt and get famous for the most part.

.

Being bound to the Horn and being bound to the Wheel are not the same thing.

You are correct, in that "The Hunt" for the Horn is just a basic "quest", similar to the search for the Holy Grail of Arthurian legend, and most of the people who participate are just treasure hunters and glory seekers.

Again, my fault, really should get some sleep, but I keep thinking that the Host was sometimes referred to as The Hunt or The Wild Hunt (not sure why) and am probably mixing that up with the more standard "Hunt for the Horn" quest thing.

Either way, The Host of Heroes are not, strictly speaking, bound to the Horn in terms of their resurrection, but are bound to the Pattern. Their binding to the Horn is strictly in the nature of the obligation for them to respond to the call if the Horn is blown.

Absolutely, but given my position is that souls belonging to heroes of the horn are distinctly atypical souls, I assumed playing up the power of the horn itself would support my argument. And other than it being in some songs/tales, I don't think we know anything about it's nature. An object interacting with souls is outside our knowledge of the One Power after all, so I have no real basis to pretend to understand what the horn really is. So I guess all I can say about it is it's some magical item and I think that any soul that ends up tied to it is treated differently than other souls.

See my previous point: They are not, strictly speaking, Heroes of the Horn. They are Heroes of the Pattern. The horn simply calls them. It's actually specifically mentioned at one point that they could actually refuse the call if they wanted to (for example if an agent of Shadow was the hornsounder).

As for it interacting with Souls, who said it had anything at all to do with the One Power? I am pretty sure the horn was Ancient even before the Age of Legends, and even then the Aes Sedai had very little idea, if any at all, regarding how it functioned.

[Kharadin]

snip

Honestly I'm losing track of what we're arguing lol.

And yeah, re. the One Power that was my point, we know it's not that so I was just saying that we literally don't/can't know how it works fundamentally.

So if I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that other than the horn calling them to fight, heroes of the horn could just be normal souls otherwise and what we see from Birgitte's POV about reincarnating to be a similar person each time and also ending up with Gaidal could well be just how each soul/thread works rather than being anything to do with horn. We (I) just tie them together because she's a hero of the horn and we get to hear about her existence between rebirths just because that's how the story goes.

I think I only have one rebuttal to that but my memory is scuffed and I need to look up a quote, but if it falls through I think you've convinced me. Idk if I read it or it was an assumption, but I think her and Gaidal being in TAR between incarnations was due to them being heroes of the horn, and if that's true I think the souls of those the horn calls can still be considered different from typical souls. i.e. if between incarnations you maintain your identity (or sense of self or something, idk) then that could be what fixes characteristics about your identity from one birth to the other.

And I should be working rather than trying to figure out the mechanics of reincarnation in a fantasy series that was never out-right ruled and the author has since died. Get some sleep, if you remember to reply to this I'll try to find the quote another time or bow out and give you the W.

[molliewoof]

episode 7 was meh, i just dont care about any of them enough to get involved. maybe its the plot armour or the terrible acting, even Rosamund who i rate highly as an actress only has one facial expression, SPOILER

being attacked by weird stargate replicator things? dont care ... dragon reveals himself to you? dont care

i wasnt really concentrating so i suppose a question is why is tall ginger guy angry that big blacksmith dude shagged his on / off mrs before they were together, why is she angry he worked it out?

this isnt my original thought but i dont know where it came from , GoT worked because all the fantasy tropes were up at the wall, pretty far away from the murder and political intrigue (until the last season or two), no one was safe unless you were at the wall so he got away with having that cheesy thing that fantasy geeks (like me) were really interested in whilst everyone else could be involved in the political intrigue, shagging, murders in the other two stories (i know Danny had Dragons but they were to the side a lot of the time). WoT doesnt have this, its just eight people with plot armour going through situations that arent dangerous to them and the only political intrigue is the Ai sedai or whatever who seem to be on the same side but disagree on method.

That guy in the white even had two of them tied up but i knew they werent in danger, one has to be the dragon. Then the small group of white cloaks gets killed and thats that. why arent the pig men still invading? its just all very safe

did they just choose the wrong story to bring to TV?

[Xath]

episode 7 was meh, i just dont care about any of them enough to get involved. maybe its the plot armour or the terrible acting, even Rosamund who i rate highly as an actress only has one facial expression, SPOILER

being attacked by weird stargate replicator things? dont care ... dragon reveals himself to you? dont care

i wasnt really concentrating so i suppose a question is why is tall ginger guy angry that big blacksmith dude shagged his on / off mrs before they were together, why is she angry he worked it out?

this isnt my original thought but i dont know where it came from , GoT worked because all the fantasy tropes were up at the wall, pretty far away from the murder and political intrigue (until the last season or two), no one was safe unless you were at the wall so he got away with having that cheesy thing that fantasy geeks (like me) were really interested in whilst everyone else could be involved in the political intrigue, shagging, murders in the other two stories (i know Danny had Dragons but they were to the side a lot of the time). WoT doesnt have this, its just eight people with plot armour going through situations that arent dangerous to them and the only political intrigue is the Ai sedai or whatever who seem to be on the same side but disagree on method.

That guy in the white even had two of them tied up but i knew they werent in danger, one has to be the dragon. Then the small group of white cloaks gets killed and thats that. why arent the pig men still invading? its just all very safe

did they just choose the wrong story to bring to TV?

They didn't bring wheel of time to TV which is the problem.

[Biomega]

did they just choose the wrong story to bring to TV?

WoT just isn't GoT. It's MUCH more about fantasy stuff than it is about who outmaneuvers whom in politics, who fucks whom, and who murders whom. It's not like none of that exists in WoT, but it's backdrop against the actual story which is more about good vs. evil fantasy stuff. In GoT, it's kind of reversed; the fantasy stuff happens in the background, while everyone else is busy playing the game... of thrones.

[Shadowferal]

A woman in labor...fighting? Really?

A waygate to where exactly that was supposed to get them a day's journey to..?