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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    It'd be pretty much impossible to do that and not completely change the whole setting, but I would not be at all surprised if they did tweak it so that it worked based on what characters identified as. And it was that way in the books - one of the male forsaken got shoved in a female body but could only channel the male said of the One Power.
    The one power wasn't based on biology. Between soul and memory...

  2. #142
    tbh, a wot series is gonna be cringe af even if it fatefully adapts the books.

    I mean, in all seriousness, can you even imagine a white tower scene? Uptight bitches walking around with shawls scowling and tugging their braids?! Correcting their shawls, constantly spouting rhetoric's like "the weave weaves what the weave wills", or swearing like "mothers milk in a cup".

    Jordan wasnt very good at writing dialogue, nor characters (especially the female ones). If you doubt me, put up book 2 and jump to the first time Elayne and Egwene meets at the white tower... Its cringe even reading it, its gonna be 10x more cringe on tv.

    And since they barely age, every damn one of these Aes Sedais is gonna be played by some 20year old actress which will look malplaced as fuck in a role of authority. Its gonna look like a mix between a highscool drama and a drama set in some church of nuns..

    The one and only reason i will watch this show is because ive wondered for 25 damn years what ageless Aes Sedai eyes looks like! They better fucking impress me on that detail!
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by WernerCD View Post
    Deeper? how much deeper can you go? Slow motion smoothing of dresses and multiple episodes about the trip from Mauradon to The Farm with bickering women the whole way?
    An epic 15 minute sequence of Nynaeve braiding her hair followed by a slow motion, orbiting dolly shot of her tugging it when Mat says something annoying.

  4. #144
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Does anyone feel that this series is again side tracked by all the social politics that has swept western entertainment?

    I read they are focusing on Moiraine - I can't help that this decision is made because it's the trendy thing atm, female centric series and films. What annoys me about this is that Wheel of Time is fine as is. You don't need to push up female and multi-racial representative, it has all of that already.

    Females are already strong in the original content, you don't need focus switched to Moiraine - and she does go absent for the latter stages of the series too, will they change the book then?
    A factor in Eye of the World is trying to figure out which of the 3 boys might be the Dragon Reborn. Focusing on Moiraine as the searcher puts it in context. In the early books, she is driving the story forward -finding the Dragon and hopefully getting him to the stage where he is ready to face off against the Dark One. I don't necessarily think its pushing an agenda in anyway.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    tbh, a wot series is gonna be cringe af even if it fatefully adapts the books.

    I mean, in all seriousness, can you even imagine a white tower scene? Uptight bitches walking around with shawls scowling and tugging their braids?! Correcting their shawls, constantly spouting rhetoric's like "the weave weaves what the weave wills", or swearing like "mothers milk in a cup".

    Jordan wasnt very good at writing dialogue, nor characters (especially the female ones). If you doubt me, put up book 2 and jump to the first time Elayne and Egwene meets at the white tower... Its cringe even reading it, its gonna be 10x more cringe on tv.

    And since they barely age, every damn one of these Aes Sedais is gonna be played by some 20year old actress which will look malplaced as fuck in a role of authority. Its gonna look like a mix between a highscool drama and a drama set in some church of nuns..

    The one and only reason i will watch this show is because ive wondered for 25 damn years what ageless Aes Sedai eyes looks like! They better fucking impress me on that detail!
    As far as I know they're not casting young women and are not too concerned with the ageless look. Heck Moiraine is being portrayed by 40-something year old woman, and she was both powerful and reasonably young for an Aes Sedai, basically the same age as this actress. Not sure how you could achieve that outside of some kind of cgi anyway, seems like a waste of budget.

    As to the rest, here's hoping the writers of the show know what they're doing - agreed it mostly wouldn't translate as spoken dialogue, though I'm not sure what's wrong with having common expressions.

    I was curious so I looked up that section you mentioned, it's overly formal and grammatically correct compared to how most people speak, but beyond that I don't see the cringe:

    “My name is Elayne,” she said. She tilted her head, studying Egwene. “And you are Egwene. From Emond’s Field, in the Two Rivers.” She said it as if it had some significance, but went right on anyway. “Someone who has been here a little while is always assigned to a new novice for a few days, to help her find her way. Sit, please.”

    Egwene took the other bench, facing Elayne. “I thought the Aes Sedai would teach me, now that I’m finally a novice. But all that’s happened so far is that Pedra woke me a good two hours before first light and put me to sweeping the halls. She says I have to help wash dishes after dinner, too.”

    Elayne grimaced. “I hate washing dishes. I never had to—well, that doesn’t matter. You will have training. From now on, you will be at training at this hour every day, as a matter of fact. From breakfast until High, then again from dinner to Trine. If you are especially quick or especially slow, they may take you from supper to Full, as well, but that is usually for more chores.” Elayne’s blue eyes took on a thoughtful expression. “You were born with it, weren’t you?” Egwene nodded. “Yes, I thought I felt it. So was I, born with it. Do not be disappointed if you did not know. You will learn to feel the ability in other women. I had the advantage of growing up around an Aes Sedai.”

    Egwene wanted to ask about that—Who grows up with Aes Sedai?—but Elayne went on.

    “And also do not be disappointed if it takes you some time before you can achieve anything. With the One Power, I mean. Even the simplest thing takes a little time. Patience is a virtue that must be learned.” Her nose wrinkled. “Sheriam Sedai always says that, and she does her best to make us all learn it, too. Try to run when she says walk, and she’ll have you in her study before you can blink.”

    “I’ve had a few lessons already,” Egwene said, trying to sound modest. She opened herself to saidar—that part of it was easier now—and felt the warmth suffuse her body. She decided to try the biggest thing she knew how to do. She stretched out her hand, and a glowing sphere formed over it, pure light. It wavered—she still could not manage to hold it steady—but it was there.

    Calmly, Elayne held out her hand, and a ball of light appeared above her palm. Hers flickered, too.

    After a moment, a faint light glowed all around Elayne. Egwene gasped, and her ball vanished.

    Elayne giggled suddenly, and her light went out, both the sphere and the light around her. “You saw it around me?” she said excitedly. “I saw it around you. Sheriam Sedai said I would, eventually. This was the first time. For you, too?”

    Egwene nodded, laughing along with the other girl. “I like you, Elayne. I think we’re going to be friends.”

  6. #146
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    And since they barely age, every damn one of these Aes Sedais is gonna be played by some 20year old actress which will look malplaced as fuck in a role of authority. Its gonna look like a mix between a highscool drama and a drama set in some church of nuns..

    The one and only reason i will watch this show is because ive wondered for 25 damn years what ageless Aes Sedai eyes looks like! They better fucking impress me on that detail!
    The Aes Sedai are ageless -that doesn't mean they don't age, it means that when you look at them, they never seem to be a particular age, one moment 40s, one older or younger. It's explained later on that its an effect of the Oath Rod. Moghedien (I believe) comments that they look like criminals. Certainly the actresses cast for Siuan and Leane aren't 20 year olds, nor do they look it in my opinion.

    Its a big ask to get that right, and I have my doubts, the proof will be if they get as far as Siuan and Leane getting stilled, seeing them as young women pre taking the oaths

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post

    I was curious so I looked up that section you mentioned, it's overly formal and grammatically correct compared to how most people speak, but beyond that I don't see the cringe:
    Personally, I don't find that cringe either. Elayne is the daughter heir of the Kingdom, the language fits with her character.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    As far as I know they're not casting young women and are not too concerned with the ageless look. Heck Moiraine is being portrayed by 40-something year old woman, and she was both powerful and reasonably young for an Aes Sedai, basically the same age as this actress. Not sure how you could achieve that outside of some kind of cgi anyway, seems like a waste of budget.

    As to the rest, here's hoping the writers of the show know what they're doing - agreed it mostly wouldn't translate as spoken dialogue, though I'm not sure what's wrong with having common expressions.

    I was curious so I looked up that section you mentioned, it's overly formal and grammatically correct compared to how most people speak, but beyond that I don't see the cringe:
    How many times irl have you said “I like you, <name>. I think we’re going to be friends.” to someone?

    Also, Waste of budget? I cant possible be the only one whos wondered wtf ageless eyes looks like? Any budget is worth answering that question xD
    Hell i remember trying to copypaste diffrent sets of eyes on actesses in photoshop just to see how theyd look. Trying anime eyes, snake eyes, even white shark eyes. All attemptes looked creepy as fuck thou.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    The Aes Sedai are ageless -that doesn't mean they don't age, it means that when you look at them, they never seem to be a particular age, one moment 40s, one older or younger. It's explained later on that its an effect of the Oath Rod. Moghedien (I believe) comments that they look like criminals. Certainly the actresses cast for Siuan and Leane aren't 20 year olds, nor do they look it in my opinion.
    Jesus, whats with the lecture? Are you under the impression ive not read the books or something? why the fuck would i even be here, commenting about it if it was a book series ive not read?

    Also, theres tons places in books where age being noticeable in aes sedai, specifly mentioned are wrinkled skin and greying/whiting hair with the old ones like Cadsuaine, Verin and whatshername some boring sitter for the blue ajah (Was it Lelaine i think?). Its not just perception.
    Last edited by Aphrel; 2021-06-16 at 09:39 AM.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    A factor in Eye of the World is trying to figure out which of the 3 boys might be the Dragon Reborn. Focusing on Moiraine as the searcher puts it in context. In the early books, she is driving the story forward -finding the Dragon and hopefully getting him to the stage where he is ready to face off against the Dark One. I don't necessarily think its pushing an agenda in anyway.
    Maybe you are right, but you can't help but be nervous the way a lot of shows are going, then there is the casting - does make me nervous. What exactly do they mean by switched the focus to Moiraine... why would you need to say that? Everyone knows how strong and driving Moiraine's character already is, and the important role it plays.

    You shouldn't need to say anything.. so if you then come out and say it.. how can people like me not feel you pushing things by that statement? Ofc it could all be a marketing ploy as well. But gone are the days I was naive enough to think everything was economy driven.. these guys are greedy mostly, but many of these show runners are proving to be activists, idealists to their world view, and many just seem to let themselves be swept along with whatever they think is the accepting trend, and devote all their attention to it, not for money, but because they are obsessed with approval.. and this is what "appears" to be the approved thing to do.

    We shall see, but it's showing a lot of signs that other shows are showing. Still it could be a lot of fun. FYI, I quite like Star Trek Discovery, and for all my annoyance on about the decision to base the SW sequels on the originals as a rewrite including the annoyance of Luke's character being cut - both i thought were terrible ideas and things to do, I actually enjoyed the movies.. yes I did, and I've said so, I'm just not magnetically drawn to them like I was the original fantasy, they don't have that.. but they were still enjoyable.

    I get a lot of the so called anti-woke, fandom menace criticisms on all the woke stuff and agenda focus going on right now, and actually, I feel they are correct mostly. I feel they are mislabelled too, because people are big kids now, and adults who still haven't grown up are running things like a school yard, but those mislabelled fandom menace fans are overly critical view of a lot of content that actually isn't bad. A lot of it is enjoyable and entertaining, it's just not as captivating as the earlier stuff, but a lot of it is enjoyable (bar a few). But they're fans, that is what fans do, especially when they love something dearly and it's not as nice for them any more, because new runners either don't get the original material and are ruining it. I get that, we see this in the wow forums all the time. It doesn't help that you realise the reason these things are popular is because the original and properly made content that you loved dearly appealed to many too, this si how they rose to fame, but now instead of continuing to honour the stuff you feel in love with, the vultures and wolves are in to make money and they don't really care about the actual material, they come and do their thing follow their metrics because to them it's a cash cow, but to you it's precious - you're going to get annoyed - I can understand that, even though it's not me. Maybe that's why I can enjoy stuff like Discovery for what it is, and not what has been changed in the ethos and culture of the Gene Roddenberry Federation

    Yes it is annoying to sometimes see agenda's shoved down your throat, especially if you don't subscribe to, believe in the cause the way they do and definitely not agree with how they're pushing it so bad, and yes some of it is detracting and compromising the stories, but the degree is over stretched, and the it's an over reaction by fans (even though I totally get it - it's just how fans are, it's the nature of fandom, and it's a terrible error by production companies and studios to support villainising them, even if the criticism is unjustified and the makers are being unfairly labelled too (which definitely happens) - but these are just hurt fans it's a big mistake to fight your following - rather you should take a step back look at yourself, and listen to what they are saying. Try to understand. But no, PRIDE - some of these guys are so arrogant they feel that nobody can criticise them and everyone is wrong because they've made it big, and they produced this or directed that... totally forgetting they are big because the very people they are dumping on supported them. These shows would never have been so big if these fans didn't idolise them and draw people around them to them too.. Fans aren't blameless either, it's in very poor taste to constantly critics people you cannot be in their shoes because you haven't ben through what they've been through haven't needed to make the decisions they do, and you can't do the work they do. But there is a reason why it is the leader, or the seniors that should be the bigger person.

    Still who am I to criticise either side? We are all human, and we need to understand each other and be more forgiving both ends. The disgruntled fans do make valid points, and they're overly villainised by people who should be trying to support them and win them over rather than alienate them.. and you look at the people trying to alienate them, and they seem more interested in either keeping their jobs or pushing their agenda - than actually doing their job. I get you want to keep you job so you make excuses for the failure of your show.. it's a typical human reaction, and the sad execs who are only interested in their money, actually don't watch the stuff and can't understand what appeals to people, so they rely on the same people who are lying to them to keep their jobs after a bad project and thus they keep going on. Still, no one is blameless in this situation so surely we should see that and instead channel our efforts into helping each other rather than tearing each other down, right?

    They'll sort themselves out, (or i hope they do - it's funny life, those that survive are the ones that do teh humane thing and choose to instead help and work together, those that don't are the ones that tore themselves to bits in a fight neither side would give up - it's not about one side winning and the other losing - sadly corporate America has even lost that caveat of insight, when it comes to tings like this war destroys both sides (so called winners and loser alike), only peace heals things). The way I see it now, the grip and idolising of entertainment on the hearts of many is lifting, and surprisingly of all it is on the biggest fans, who devoted so much of their salaries and time to buying the merchandise and products, a religious level of devotion.. and now they're definitely thrown under the bus. I get their rage, and I know they have valid points about the reduction of appeal and value of the products coming out, and i think they are right about what is the cause of it to.

    I just think it's not as bad as they say, but very mindful how it can affect something. For most series I don't care as much.. so what if the new stuff is not as good as the old.. ? I do often enjoy afresh perspective, better graphics etc, but also don't like Hollywood's tiring and variety destroying tendency to regurgitate the same stuff and everyone go the same direction, when it's a direction you don't agree with or don't like or feel is wrong, it particularly gets to you. For a series that I really like, such as the Wheel of Time, I wonder if it will effect me more so?

    I doubt it, because as much as i loved it back then, and have fond memories, it isn't that sacred to me. I have crossed a period in my life where I would never make a thing like entertainment sacred enough to be angry to my core that it is being violated. It is just not that valuable.. yet there are actual real things that are being greatly violated and abused, and it is those that my anger is cranking up against. I can separate my anger at a theme or world view from the content and value of the entertainment and the people. But yes I also totally understand that everything is connected, and it is rather un-natural to compartmentalise.

    So there you go. I didn't have to explain myself, but I think I've helped myself also.
    Last edited by Beloren; 2021-06-16 at 09:50 AM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    You can use the context very well, to show even more things, like The hobbit movies added more Galadriel/Elrond/Saruman action, and Rhadaghast that wasn't in the big, but you could totally see happening
    The movies expanded upon the Hobbit with tie-ins from LotR. The start of the Hobbit trilogy was something along the lines of "this is the real story that I couldn't tell previously" (can't remember exact phrasing) and then added stuff like the Elves, the White Wizard and the Orc story plot - none of which existed in the book The Hobbit.

    I'm all for changing the story to meet the needs of the medium. You can't tell the same story on screen that you do in the book.

    I'm not sure if you know Enders Game... but that book was all about thoughts and feelings and reasons why this or that. And it had a kid in military school in a battle simulator fighting aliens. And a thread about his sister and brother. Moving it to the movie medium removed what held the heart and soul of the books: The inner battle that can't be displayed on screen (and the story of his sister). Ignoring the movie vs TV, the changes there lost the heart of Enders Game.

    I can see retelling WoT to meet the different medium - book vs movie vs TV... but expanding upon it? Why would they do it like the hobbit? There is no other movie line to tie into (IE: LoTR). There is no need to add characters from another story (IE: Legolas and Gimli's family) to tie in to a series that doesn't exist.

    The ONLY thing they need to do is retell the story and not lose the heart of what makes WoT the great story it is. If anything, they don't need to ADD anything... they need to distil down the too-many character lines and adapt what is described as magic to fit the big screen.

    Dune has tried multiple times and largely failed.

    I'm not sure they can do WoT the justice it deserves.
    [color=blue]This thread has lived beyond its life expectancy. ... It's also met the forum quota for posters insulting the intelligence of their peers to grasp the age-old upper hand in argumentation, I believe officially coined by Plato: "Ur, like, dumb and that's why I'm right." Zarhym


  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    How many times irl have you said “I like you, <name>. I think we’re going to be friends.” to someone?

    Also, Waste of budget? I cant possible be the only one whos wondered wtf ageless eyes looks like? Any budget is worth answering that question xD
    Hell i remember trying to copypaste diffrent sets of eyes on actesses in photoshop just to see how theyd look. Trying anime eyes, snake eyes, even white shark eyes. All attemptes looked creepy as fuck thou.
    It's something I could imagine saying to someone who I bonded with. Especially in the "first week at college" kind of scenario this effectively is. Not seeing the problem, but to each their own, the wheel weaves as the wheel wills. And hah, well from your perspective I can see why it wouldn't be a waste of their money, but I don't think that investment would pay off for their show.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    Jesus, whats with the lecture? Are you under the impression ive not read the books or something? why the fuck would i even be here, commenting about it if it was a book series ive not read?

    Also, theres tons places in books where age being noticeable in aes sedai, specifly mentioned are wrinkled skin and greying/whiting hair with the old ones like Cadsuaine, Verin and whatshername some boring sitter for the blue ajah (Was it Lelaine i think?). Its not just perception.
    Wait a sec.. I thought gray hair was the only telling sign. Apart from that their faces were totally smooth - and it's just in the eyes.. not physical wrinkles, but you know when you look into someone's eyes, and hear them speak... they look young, but you know they're much older/wiser - it's in the eyes (not wrinkles.. more like the depth of those eyes, or the knowing gaze... that sort of thing).

    Cadsuane was a bit of an exception one off too if I recall, I don't think any Aes Sedai current had lived as long as she had or anywhere near it. Other one power users like the Aiel women don't have that mark, didn't we find out it was because of the Ter'angreal they use in their final trial that gives this weird effect

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WernerCD View Post
    The movies expanded upon the Hobbit with tie-ins from LotR. The start of the Hobbit trilogy was something along the lines of "this is the real story that I couldn't tell previously" (can't remember exact phrasing) and then added stuff like the Elves, the White Wizard and the Orc story plot - none of which existed in the book The Hobbit.

    I'm all for changing the story to meet the needs of the medium. You can't tell the same story on screen that you do in the book.

    I'm not sure if you know Enders Game... but that book was all about thoughts and feelings and reasons why this or that. And it had a kid in military school in a battle simulator fighting aliens. And a thread about his sister and brother. Moving it to the movie medium removed what held the heart and soul of the books: The inner battle that can't be displayed on screen (and the story of his sister). Ignoring the movie vs TV, the changes there lost the heart of Enders Game.

    I can see retelling WoT to meet the different medium - book vs movie vs TV... but expanding upon it? Why would they do it like the hobbit? There is no other movie line to tie into (IE: LoTR). There is no need to add characters from another story (IE: Legolas and Gimli's family) to tie in to a series that doesn't exist.

    The ONLY thing they need to do is retell the story and not lose the heart of what makes WoT the great story it is. If anything, they don't need to ADD anything... they need to distil down the too-many character lines and adapt what is described as magic to fit the big screen.

    Dune has tried multiple times and largely failed.

    I'm not sure they can do WoT the justice it deserves.
    Yeh agree. LotR and HP to a lesser extent are good examples of films I enjoyed even though they were a little differnet from the books.. LotR was much closer adaptation. I've never been anti changing stuff from books.. although i've noted the vast majority of adaptations from which there is book source material haven't been as enjoyable as the the book. LotR was definitely one of the few exceptions. Harry Potter, I watched before i read, the book did expand the story, but did notice a lot of differences.. maybe because I watched the earlier films first before reading their book is why I was okay about it.. maybe the perspective is different.

    I'm totally lost on the comic adaptations though, I 've hardly read any comics but always loved the super hero genre - besides comics aren't very detailed, so it's far easier I would say to do them and be true tothe spirt of things. Minor plot changes also work if it serves teh story better.. and it is sometimes easier to think of the movie world as separate.. like the movies is how it actually happened, and the comic is a romantised version, because the screen versions are more detailed than comics most often.

    it's the opposite with books.

    I didn't get whey Dudley and Petunia's hair wasn't blonde. in the movies when it was in the books.. was it hard to wear a wig or dye the hair? why have it black? does it feel more witchy? I did get the sense that JK was making a statement against the blonde group people tend to hold in such high regard, the Malfoy' are all blonde in the books.. but they are the only ones that keep the blondess.. maybe the showrunners felt it sufficiently conveyed the sentiment, and the black hair colour could be impactful.

    Still i wasn't annoyed or hated the films because that detail was changed. Race swaps I think are different. Ultimately I want the actor/actress to be really good, I would prefer them to look as close to teh source material as possible, so sometimes a race swap changes too much, even with a great actor.

    still sometimes a race swap can be a very interesting take on the whole thing.. and works out well

    What I hate currently is race swapping for the sake of publicity stunts, because it's just done randomly to fill a quota and basically ruins the source material, often enough the account isn't adapted properly to reflect it. some works the characters are too specific and careful interwoven for that too happen, many a times it doesn't matter.. sometimes it's just bad/wrong (like a Medieival piece that is historical - you can't race swap there, but if it's fantasy like Brdigerton on Netflix, where the is even an explanation on why we see black and mixed race people in positions of power in an English royal court, then I'm fine with that for period "FANTASY" piece.. I quite enjoyed Brigerton.


    Gender swapping I'm less forgiving about, Gender swapping is the biggest change. Male and female roles are not easily straight out swapped, because unlike the thoughts of your activist intersectionalist, men and women behave pronouncedly differently in subtle ways even though either can achieve the same end result, how they go about it, is often very different even executing the same basic principles. What I see happening is a lot of male roles not re-written as female, but just females used instead and ti looks so weird.. they come across as women acting as men - which might appeal to my lesbian former colleague, but it looks so false to me. Now I've seen many a shows, especially Korean drams where the women have been the lead, and best character, strongest character, sometimes even super human strength too, and they've pulled it off perfectly, not once did I feel that woman was a man or like a man - (no woman should be or feel they need to be or that is the way they should be - if you do, you are probably overly influenced by men or a male centric view in your society. Becoming more like a man doesn't make it equal, it just makes you the woman more man like, not your society more even), in many of those shows, not once did I think she was useless or weak or lesser. Even in roles where women are being traditionally women they can be done well when they are shown well.

    Now to sit down and swap outright without changing anything changes everything, and usually ruins a work for me. You can see it a lot of the time, especially in our shows .. and you can tell, ah they're gender swapping - whether it's because the female show runner has fantasies about being a male and is living that out through her character ( yes, this is definitely a thing and it happens the other way round too) or they're just being lazy because they "don't get it", don't care (because they just want a fast buck and it's a job), and/or have bought into a lot of rubbish ideologies going around right now without thinking because it's "popular" or trendy atm, -what ends up happening is the work itself seems rubbish. Now its totally different if the character is supposed to be a trans character.. then that can add a nuance if done , yes again, correctly.

    What we tend to be seeing is these people put out shit, that isn't done well, .. it's like they don't really understand life or how human beings work, but they're running shows and putting out material they don't grasp. I sometimes wonder if anyone told them you can't do it like this.. or you shouldn't.. i wonder if they were told and they just ignored it in pride or in arrogance and were like dragons in their studios or everyone just went along saying yes to their wishes even when some of those things were clearly rubbish.

    if studios create a climate where you can't be freely critical or work together to make things better, it's your loss, show runners aren't God, their vision isn't perfect either, if they think they are.. well we'll get more rubbish.. saying that sometimes it's the exact opposite that causes the problem, the showruner knows his stuff, but a studio exec thinks he or she knows it better, and comes in all huffy and puffy throwing their weight around, making changes that actually detract from that persons singular vision which is how and what the show needed to show.

    Sigh..there is no hard and fast rule. A good production is from a good team and it will show. A rubbish one, well you'll see it when it comes out.

  12. #152
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Wait a sec.. I thought gray hair was the only telling sign. Apart from that their faces were totally smooth - and it's just in the eyes.. not physical wrinkles, but you know when you look into someone's eyes, and hear them speak... they look young, but you know they're much older/wiser - it's in the eyes (not wrinkles.. more like the depth of those eyes, or the knowing gaze... that sort of thing).

    Cadsuane was a bit of an exception one off too if I recall, I don't think any Aes Sedai current had lived as long as she had or anywhere near it. Other one power users like the Aiel women don't have that mark, didn't we find out it was because of the Ter'angreal they use in their final trial that gives this weird effect
    Working with the power slows aging, which is most obvious with the Wise Ones. I believe Alivia is significantly older than Cadsuane but I can't remember her physical description. There are a few Aes Sedai within the series who are mentioned as having grey hair, which is another indication they are not the age they seem.

    The Aes Sedai alone have the ageless face, which as you said comes from using the oath rod.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    Working with the power slows aging, which is most obvious with the Wise Ones. I believe Alivia is significantly older than Cadsuane but I can't remember her physical description. There are a few Aes Sedai within the series who are mentioned as having grey hair, which is another indication they are not the age they seem.

    The Aes Sedai alone have the ageless face, which as you said comes from using the oath rod.
    Yeh, very very few.. was it not revealed that Verin, like most Black Ajah had been set free from the rod? she and and Cadsuane are the on one I recall having grey hair amognst the Aes Sedai.. although some character was described as having white hair.. but I took that to mean she was naturally white haired.

  14. #154
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Yeh, very very few.. was it not revealed that Verin, like most Black Ajah had been set free from the rod? she and and Cadsuane are the on one I recall having grey hair amognst the Aes Sedai.. although some character was described as having white hair.. but I took that to mean she was naturally white haired.
    I agree the white hair was probably naturalThe black Ajah have their own set of oaths sworn on another oath rod, so the ageless effect still held, her having grey hair was nothing to do with being free from the oath rod. That's one of the reasons the Black Ajah was able to keep hidden for so well.
    Last edited by Smallfruitbat; 2021-06-16 at 02:52 PM.

  15. #155
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Wait a sec.. I thought gray hair was the only telling sign. Apart from that their faces were totally smooth - and it's just in the eyes.. not physical wrinkles, but you know when you look into someone's eyes, and hear them speak... they look young, but you know they're much older/wiser - it's in the eyes (not wrinkles.. more like the depth of those eyes, or the knowing gaze... that sort of thing).

    Cadsuane was a bit of an exception one off too if I recall, I don't think any Aes Sedai current had lived as long as she had or anywhere near it. Other one power users like the Aiel women don't have that mark, didn't we find out it was because of the Ter'angreal they use in their final trial that gives this weird effect

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeh agree. LotR and HP to a lesser extent are good examples of films I enjoyed even though they were a little differnet from the books.. LotR was much closer adaptation. I've never been anti changing stuff from books.. although i've noted the vast majority of adaptations from which there is book source material haven't been as enjoyable as the the book. LotR was definitely one of the few exceptions. Harry Potter, I watched before i read, the book did expand the story, but did notice a lot of differences.. maybe because I watched the earlier films first before reading their book is why I was okay about it.. maybe the perspective is different.

    I'm totally lost on the comic adaptations though, I 've hardly read any comics but always loved the super hero genre - besides comics aren't very detailed, so it's far easier I would say to do them and be true tothe spirt of things. Minor plot changes also work if it serves teh story better.. and it is sometimes easier to think of the movie world as separate.. like the movies is how it actually happened, and the comic is a romantised version, because the screen versions are more detailed than comics most often.

    it's the opposite with books.

    I didn't get whey Dudley and Petunia's hair wasn't blonde. in the movies when it was in the books.. was it hard to wear a wig or dye the hair? why have it black? does it feel more witchy? I did get the sense that JK was making a statement against the blonde group people tend to hold in such high regard, the Malfoy' are all blonde in the books.. but they are the only ones that keep the blondess.. maybe the showrunners felt it sufficiently conveyed the sentiment, and the black hair colour could be impactful.

    Still i wasn't annoyed or hated the films because that detail was changed. Race swaps I think are different. Ultimately I want the actor/actress to be really good, I would prefer them to look as close to teh source material as possible, so sometimes a race swap changes too much, even with a great actor.

    still sometimes a race swap can be a very interesting take on the whole thing.. and works out well

    What I hate currently is race swapping for the sake of publicity stunts, because it's just done randomly to fill a quota and basically ruins the source material, often enough the account isn't adapted properly to reflect it. some works the characters are too specific and careful interwoven for that too happen, many a times it doesn't matter.. sometimes it's just bad/wrong (like a Medieival piece that is historical - you can't race swap there, but if it's fantasy like Brdigerton on Netflix, where the is even an explanation on why we see black and mixed race people in positions of power in an English royal court, then I'm fine with that for period "FANTASY" piece.. I quite enjoyed Brigerton.


    Gender swapping I'm less forgiving about, Gender swapping is the biggest change. Male and female roles are not easily straight out swapped, because unlike the thoughts of your activist intersectionalist, men and women behave pronouncedly differently in subtle ways even though either can achieve the same end result, how they go about it, is often very different even executing the same basic principles. What I see happening is a lot of male roles not re-written as female, but just females used instead and ti looks so weird.. they come across as women acting as men - which might appeal to my lesbian former colleague, but it looks so false to me. Now I've seen many a shows, especially Korean drams where the women have been the lead, and best character, strongest character, sometimes even super human strength too, and they've pulled it off perfectly, not once did I feel that woman was a man or like a man - (no woman should be or feel they need to be or that is the way they should be - if you do, you are probably overly influenced by men or a male centric view in your society. Becoming more like a man doesn't make it equal, it just makes you the woman more man like, not your society more even), in many of those shows, not once did I think she was useless or weak or lesser. Even in roles where women are being traditionally women they can be done well when they are shown well.

    Now to sit down and swap outright without changing anything changes everything, and usually ruins a work for me. You can see it a lot of the time, especially in our shows .. and you can tell, ah they're gender swapping - whether it's because the female show runner has fantasies about being a male and is living that out through her character ( yes, this is definitely a thing and it happens the other way round too) or they're just being lazy because they "don't get it", don't care (because they just want a fast buck and it's a job), and/or have bought into a lot of rubbish ideologies going around right now without thinking because it's "popular" or trendy atm, -what ends up happening is the work itself seems rubbish. Now its totally different if the character is supposed to be a trans character.. then that can add a nuance if done , yes again, correctly.

    What we tend to be seeing is these people put out shit, that isn't done well, .. it's like they don't really understand life or how human beings work, but they're running shows and putting out material they don't grasp. I sometimes wonder if anyone told them you can't do it like this.. or you shouldn't.. i wonder if they were told and they just ignored it in pride or in arrogance and were like dragons in their studios or everyone just went along saying yes to their wishes even when some of those things were clearly rubbish.

    if studios create a climate where you can't be freely critical or work together to make things better, it's your loss, show runners aren't God, their vision isn't perfect either, if they think they are.. well we'll get more rubbish.. saying that sometimes it's the exact opposite that causes the problem, the showruner knows his stuff, but a studio exec thinks he or she knows it better, and comes in all huffy and puffy throwing their weight around, making changes that actually detract from that persons singular vision which is how and what the show needed to show.

    Sigh..there is no hard and fast rule. A good production is from a good team and it will show. A rubbish one, well you'll see it when it comes out.
    I'm surprised some posters haven't fallen upon you and showered you with all sorts of - ist.

    Ahh you mentioned before you were gay? That probably shields you a bit.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    I'm surprised some posters haven't fallen upon you and showered you with all sorts of - ist.

    Ahh you mentioned before you were gay? That probably shields you a bit.
    AH, I'm a weird one, not afraid to call it how I see it, and i don't take sides. We are very factional in today's social and political circles, people forget to treasure what is good , true or right and instead go down heavy on others because "they're not in our club".. I use to be that, very factional on wow, but I think I've grown up a bit, the other side is also human, and also has both points and reasons for what they do and say, some of them very good - if you are willing to listen. You can get some real treasures too if you do.

    Always good to have an open mind and listen to different perspectives and make up your mind, if a position has merit, it is worth considering and changing your opinion if you thin it is right. Maybe I no longer care whether my tribe accept me or not or whether I belong to a group or not.. that fear is causing a lot of people to abandon what's right in front of their eyes and believe a lie and be okay about it.

    It's the perfect recipe for destroying yourself.

    You see parallels in the entertainment industry, in many respect they seem to be championing this bad behaviour resurgence. But it is what it is.

    My hope ofc for my WoT is that it would be as good as the books.. I enjoyed them so much I really want as much of their detail to be faithfully represented in the books, which is why I bothered to mention my concern about race swaps, exaggerating Moiraine's role further, which also tends to have tings like gender swaps etc.. but cool enough to not let that get to me too much either, or throw away what could be an otherwise very good production.

  17. #157
    Scarab Lord Skizzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I'm totally lost on the comic adaptations though, I 've hardly read any comics but always loved the super hero genre - besides comics aren't very detailed, so it's far easier I would say to do them and be true tothe spirt of things. Minor plot changes also work if it serves teh story better.. and it is sometimes easier to think of the movie world as separate.. like the movies is how it actually happened, and the comic is a romantised version, because the screen versions are more detailed than comics most often.

    it's the opposite with books.
    I am going to give you a pass since you said yourself you don't know comics really well, but saying comics are less detailed than movies is an insane statement. Go read the comic version of the Infinity War storyline and I don't think you would be saying that anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I didn't get whey Dudley and Petunia's hair wasn't blonde. in the movies when it was in the books.. was it hard to wear a wig or dye the hair? why have it black? does it feel more witchy? I did get the sense that JK was making a statement against the blonde group people tend to hold in such high regard, the Malfoy' are all blonde in the books.. but they are the only ones that keep the blondess.. maybe the showrunners felt it sufficiently conveyed the sentiment, and the black hair colour could be impactful.
    This may be the wildest HP take I have seen yet. JK hates blonde people. You heard it here first.


    As for the rest, I was going to try and explain some of the various reasons a screenwriter or studio would race/gender swap characters when adapting existing works but the more I read of your post, the more I realized it would likely be pointless.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    I am going to give you a pass since you said yourself you don't know comics really well, but saying comics are less detailed than movies is an insane statement. Go read the comic version of the Infinity War storyline and I don't think you would be saying that anymore.
    I see your point, because I haven't read comics much, I can't really argue.

    The problem with Infinity Wars and Batman v Superman plots, especially the latter is that they take huge comic book arcs built up over weeks or years even and then cram them into one show.. for such a specfic arca nd meaningful story you need much more of a build up.. for exmaple, the equivalent would have been if every marvel hero involved with the avengers had had elements of the inifity stones saga added ot it, would have been the equivalent... or if Doomsday plot had been earmarked in Man of STeel and 5 other DC movies prior to Dawn of Justice which would either culminate it or bet he start of a trilogy.

    So it's not really that comics give more detail, than it is films decide to use comic material that is very extensive, opting not to take the same time to build the plot but summarise it.

    On a 1 to 1, a live action episode of a standard comic surely would have more info than the comic right? Assume standard US length of 45 mins run tie or asian length of 65 mins run time. Give or take depending on network.

    Or does this not make any sense..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    This may be the wildest HP take I have seen yet. JK hates blonde people. You heard it here first.
    Does she? Just speculating on why the key horrible people we first meet are all blonde, it's more like she was using htem as symbol of something. But she could secretly not like them. She's a red head, and notice how good Red heads are in the book.. the weasleys for example (was Hermione red tinged at one point in the films?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    As for the rest, I was going to try and explain some of the various reasons a screenwriter or studio would race/gender swap characters when adapting existing works but the more I read of your post, the more I realized it would likely be pointless.
    Why? Consider me a layman .. I'm interested in hearing your opinion, perhaps what I've stated is the only reason I've thought of or heard.. this is why we have public forums and open dialogue between people - share thoughts, challenge assumptions, cross check things. if you have something valuable to say, say it, whether I agree with it or not, whether I argue and give 10 stupid reasons that make no sense why you are wrong, say it any way. And don't be swayed by the volume of negative responses if they have no merit and are just regurgitating what their faction says. Say it anyway.

    But if they make a point that has merit and sense to, pause to consider, perhaps there is something there, that could help you reach a clearer understanding of what's going on.. aren't we all on a learning journey? Can we really afford to stop because we don't like someone else's viewpoint?

  19. #159
    Dreadlord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Are people really expecting a 1:1 adaption of the books? That will never work. To many characters that only show up once or twice an general way to vast most of the time.

    They will definetly merge some characters into one. The format just does not allow a 100% faithfull adaption. Ever. Which will not mean, that it will be bad.
    Just... adjust what you are expecting a bit.
    A tv show works far better as format for adopting it than a movie would. They just need to commit to a big amount of seasons and avoid the GoT problem of "wanting to rush the end". Heck, GoT worked until they run out of books to 1:1 adopt so they had to write their own weird fanfiction take on the story.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    As far as I know they're not casting young women and are not too concerned with the ageless look. Heck Moiraine is being portrayed by 40-something year old woman, and she was both powerful and reasonably young for an Aes Sedai, basically the same age as this actress. Not sure how you could achieve that outside of some kind of cgi anyway, seems like a waste of budget.
    Makeup can do wonders and totally change the look of a person. Guess we shall see what happens with this.

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