[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Triceron]

I don't think the joke had anything to do with the changes he made to the characters. Are Lan and Perrin Gay?

Does this mean it's completely outside the possibility? Where are the lines between joke and reality when his joking about changing characters has been reflected as a realistic possibility in the show? In both cases, it's taking the piss on book readers and fans alike. And look, I'm not saying he's a bad guy for saying any of this, but I think I'm allowed to call it out for being unprofessional and being controversial enough of a statement in light of the show having taken so many creative liberties where character sexuality and relations are concerned.

People getting their panties twisted up over a joke the man made 2 years ago is the real fucking joke.

Why are you so concerned about what other people think?

[Egomaniac]

D

Why are you so concerned about what other people think?

Why are you so concerned about that? I just think it's funny that you guys are getting so revved up over a joke he made in a tweet he made 2 years ago like it means anything at all. He made a joke about turning Perrin and Lan gay for each other. If you've watched this week's episode... there is pretty solid evidence that he didn't do that. And either he never got another death threat after that...or he didn't follow through with Egwene either.

All you've got is a tweet of changes that he didn't actually make and you're acting like that means something.

[Triceron]

Why are you so concerned about that?

Because I am a fan? FFS lol.

All you've got is a tweet of changes that he didn't actually make.

Not yet, anyways. You really know the fate of every character's relationship knowing how everything's already got some measure of change from the books? That Lan in the show wouldn't ever consider a homosexual relationship, considering we already know other warders openly have threesome relationships that never actually appeared in the books? The show has opened doors to that being possible, and makes the joke less of a joke when it's so closely bordering on possibility.

It's not like the book has made every Aes Sedai openly be bisexuals. That's always been quite ambiguous in the books.

[Egomaniac]

Because I am a fan? FFS lol.

"I'm a fan" means nothing. There's a shit ton of fans that don't give a fuck about what Rafe Judkins tweeted two years ago.

[Triceron]

"I'm a fan" means nothing. There's a shit ton of fans that don't give a fuck about what Rafe Judkins tweeted two years ago.

You asked why I'm concerned, and it's because I'm a fan. I responded to your question on my behalf, not anyone else's. You're gonna spin this around that my reasons mean nothing because 'other fans don't give a fuck'? Why are you gatekeeping?

Please. Get off your high fucking horse.

[Egomaniac]

I'm speaking out on my behalf, not theirs. You asked why I'm concerned, and it's because I'm a fan. You're gonna spin this around that my reasons mean nothing because 'other people don't give a fuck'?

Please. Get off your high fucking horse.

I never said your reasons mean nothing. I'm asking you for those reasons. "I'm a fan" means nothing. It isn't a reason in and of itself.

He made a joke. He never followed through on what he threatened to do in that joke. So, why do you fucking care?

[rhorle]

I'm talking about actual viewership numbers currently it's third behind two shows that are much much much less expensive to produce and it hasn't had to deal with any significant competitors yet.

Does Amazon care about where it is in relation to other networks? It is still #1 on prime in the US and has been since its release. It seems like you are using typical time-slot ad revenue bound thinking to a "stream any time" show.

[Triceron]

I never said your reasons mean nothing. I'm asking you for those reasons. "I'm a fan" means nothing. It isn't a reason in and of itself.

He made a joke. He never followed through on what he threatened to do in that joke. So, why do you fucking care?

What do you mean he never followed through?

Characters personalities and sexual relations have taken many creative liberties from how they are in the books. He made a tweet that implies that he has the power to influence those very changes, and that is not a joke, that is literally within his power as showrunner. I clearly pointed out this connection.

As for why I care? I think his tweet was unprofessional and is an indication of the clear lack of respect that this show has to the source material. It treats it like a very loose guideline from which the show's writers can manipulate as they please, changing relationships and character dynamics as they please. I pretty clearly outlined this in the first response here. Why do I care? Because I don't want Lan to have homosexual relationships in the future of the series? Because I wouldn't want LGTB+ representation to be self-inserts by the showrunner for the sake of promoting his own agenda over respecting the spirit of the books? I care because it's a damn clear possibility.


I can accept this show taking its creative liberties and being what it is. I can accept that this is an adaptation of the novel and it can be adapted however the showrunner wishes. That I accept these possibilities does not mean I have to agree with them or be happy about them changing the spirit of the books. Because, as a fan, I care about the source material.

[rhorle]

I care because it's a damn clear possibility.

You clearly hate the show and the people creating the show. So why not just move on and let it all go? There is no point on holding onto hate or digging up a two year old tweet just to say "Got him" though I'm guessing you saw it from a site/post biased towards the negative given how many people are responding to a tweet from over two years ago with today's date.

[Egomaniac]

What do you mean he never followed through?

I mean the joke was specifically about turning Perrin and Lan gay for each other. They aren't. He never followed through. Because it was just a joke.

[Triceron]

But why do you care? You clearly hate the show and the people creating the show.

Except I don't?

I don't hate the show. That there are some changes that I'm not happy with doesn't mean I hate it. It's just not how I would like it.

Do I hate the people creating the show? Where have I expressed hatred for anyone working on the show?


Again, you're fucking projecting. Criticizing someone for acting unprofessional is not hatred against them. Like if Kevin Feige came out with joke-in-bad-taste tweet that pissed off the fans, then we can call that out as being unprofessional without actually hating Kevin Feige himself and everyone who makes MCU movies. Again, I don't see where you're seeing any 'hate' here, unless you think Rafe should be absolutely free of criticism for making jokes about changing characters relationships all while changing characters relationships in the show.

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I mean the joke was specifically about turning Perrin and Lan gay for each other. They aren't. He never followed through. Because it was just a joke.

"You all are very kind. I’ve dealt with them before and there’s truly only one way to respond — turn their favorite characters gay. Cause I can."

That's not specific about Perrin and Lan. Those two characters were just his example.

About turning favourite characters gay? Morraine is already clearly bi where the books only keeps that absolutely ambiguous, and if anything, in the past. Or Warders having threesomes? Also something the show is making explicit even though it's not at all clarified (or even considered hinted at) in the books.

[rhorle]

Again, you're fucking projecting.

How is it projection when I have told you, and others here, that I like the show and have come to terms that it isn't the books? You keep expressing anger over the show and the lengths you seem to go to just to continue that anger is more hate then it is not.

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That's not specific about Perrin and Lan. Those two characters were just his example.

Except you again ignore the context that was pointed out to you. He looked up tweets by the person that made the threat and found who their favorite characters were. It was a personalized comeback to trigger the person that made the threat further. You are reading way to much into.

[Egomaniac]

Except I don't?

I don't hate the show. That there are some changes that I'm not happy with doesn't mean I hate it. It's just not how I would like it.

Do I hate the people creating the show? Where have I expressed hatred for anyone working on the show?


Again, you're fucking projecting. Criticizing someone for acting unprofessional is not hatred against them. Like if Kevin Feige came out with joke-in-bad-taste tweet that pissed off the fans, then we can call that out as being unprofessional without actually hating Kevin Feige himself and everyone who makes MCU movies. Again, I don't see where you're seeing any 'hate' here, unless you think Rafe should be absolutely free of criticism for making jokes about changing characters relationships all while changing characters relationships in the show.

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"You all are very kind. I’ve dealt with them before and there’s truly only one way to respond — turn their favorite characters gay. Cause I can."

That's not specific about Perrin and Lan. Those two characters were just his example.

Yeah. Read the rest of it:

This gentleman reaps what he sows — Perrin and Lan now gay for each other. Next homophobic death threat? Egwene and Daise Congar

He said, very specifically, because of that death threat...Lan and Perrin would now be gay for each other. That's specifically about Lan and Perrin. He also threatened that the next homophobic death threat would result in Egwene being gay too...and that didn't happen either.

So, sorry that you didn't like his reaction to receiving a fucking death threat. But it's much ado about fucking nothing.

[Triceron]

So, sorry that you didn't like his reaction to receiving a fucking death threat. But it's much ado about fucking nothing.

Again, I pointed this as an example of how it's not far from the truth considering the direction of the show and how characters have been changed. So even if it were in jest as a response to death threats, it's an unprofessional statement that does reflect on the direction that the show has decided to take.

Much like if we were talking about Kevin Smith's old tweets about never having been a big He-man fan and his current position as showrunner for He-man. Regardless of whether Masters of the Universe series is good or not (subjective opinion), his old tweets do reflect on the decision for the show going in the direction that it did and changing many elements that have 'stirred the hornets nest' for more of the hardcore He-man fanbase. You could go in looking at it from your own point of view as the fans getting mad over nothing, but they're getting mad nonetheless, and the old tweets still have relevance on how disconnected Kevin Smith is from the actual He-man fanbase which he technically was never a part of. It's not a matter of anyone being right or wrong, good or bad.

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How is it projection when I have told you, and others here, that I like the show and have come to terms that it isn't the books?

You're projecting in saying that *I* hate the show and its creators, as you blatantly did right here:

But why do you care? You clearly hate the show and the people creating the show.


You are projecting because I do not hate the show or the people creating the show. That you think I clearly hate both is what you're projecting. I don't care what you come to terms with, you're the one who has judged me with a direct claim that I hate the show and its creators. I don't hate either. I enjoy the show for what it is, and that does not mean the show is without its flaws or things I don't like. That doesn't mean I hate either. And there are also things I wouldn't want to happen, which are seemingly an 'open possibility' with the way this show has been taking its creative liberties. That is concerning to me, as a fan of the source material who would like characters to stay close to it. Again, I can accept it for what it is, but it does get in the way of enjoying what I'd like to see rather than be presented with something that I think is out-of-place and (imo) unnecessary.

Except you again ignore the context that was pointed out to you. He looked up tweets by the person that made the threat and found who their favorite characters were. It was a personalized comeback to trigger the person that made the threat further. You are reading way to much into.

It's not reading way too much when we have Warders in clear polygamous relationships, bordering on homosexuality, and the Warders being completely open to it.

I mean let's put it this way - How confident would you be in saying Lan will never have a homosexual relationship in the show? Can you say this with utmost confidence? Or would you somehow just excuse this as 'this wouldn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother anyone'?

The concern is real because it's an actual possibility given the way the creators have made such relationships an expected reality within the show.

Honestly it's no different than people's concerns over the Dragon Reborn being potentially female. The concerns are valid, even if the reactions to them may have been overblown. I had enough confidence in the show that they wouldn't change the actual gender or character of the Dragon Reborn, but the concern is no less valid from those who expressed them.

[Egomaniac]

Again, I pointed this as an example of how it's not far from the truth considering the direction of the show and how characters have been changed. So even if it were in jest as a response to death threats, it's an unprofessional statement that does reflect on the direction that the show has decided to take.

Your Kevin Smith analogy is ill-chosen. Rafe didn't make a statement about how he was never a fan of Wheel of Time. He's said the opposite.

https://collider.com/wheel-of-time-r...erview-amazon/

RAFE JUDKINS: Yeah, it was a book series that I always loved growing up, but there's a lot of books series that I loved. I was a huge book nerd when I grew up. The reason that I wanted to do this one as a TV show is that I do think that there is a place and a meaning for it right now. To bring a TV show off as a showrunner, you are giving your life to that thing for two years. You have to be pretty committed to it more so than just, I love these books. I really felt like this was a story that I thought was worth telling right now, so that was something that was really important to me in making the decision to do this.

What he did was make what was very clearly a joke about turning specific characters gay because of a certain person's Death Threat.

Again, he never followed through on that joke. He didn't make Perrin and Lan gay just to spite one shitty person. Because he was just joking. And anyone with any common sense would be able to tell that he was just joking. But here you come, two years later, acting like it's indicative of how little respect Rafe has for the Source Material. Over a joke.

It's funny and sad at the same time.

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I mean let's put it this way - How confident would you be in saying Lan will never have a homosexual relationship in the show? Can you say this with utmost confidence? Or would you somehow just excuse this as 'this wouldn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother anyone'?
.

I feel very confident that Lan and Perrin will never have a homosexual relationship with each other in the show. Remember he didn't just threaten to make them gay...he threatened to make them gay for each other.

Given the events that take place in this weeks episode...I'm also pretty confident that neither Lan nor Perrin will have a homosexual relationship with anyone else either.

I'm a little less confident about Egwene and Daise not hooking up though. I mean, Ratings might slip and Amazon might decide that what they need is a little hot girl-on-girl action to spice it up. Of course, they'd also probably have to change up Daise a bit too... make her younger and prettier. Maybe cast Scarlett Johansson. But I don't think it's something Rafe planned out 2 years ago and is just waiting to drop it on us.

[Triceron]

Your Kevin Smith analogy is ill-chosen. Rafe didn't make a statement about how he was never a fan of Wheel of Time. He's said the opposite.

https://collider.com/wheel-of-time-r...erview-amazon/

Yet Rafe's statements and his actions do not always line up.

He also said he doesn't want this game to be explicit like Game of Thrones, yet it's pretty clear that this show takes many nods in that direction in terms of tone, theme and pacing. This show has a lot to do with the GoT series even if the showrunner has tried to distance themselves from it.

Or take a note at his statements on authenticity.

At the end of the day, these changes are personal for Judkins, too. He’s also a fan. Judkins read the books at a formative age and he’s discussed how he and his mother used the books as a way to connect with each other, he as a young gay kid in Utah and she as a matriarch in a Mormon family. The Wheel of Time gave them a way to connect and build empathy for these characters who had to exist in a world where they were different. With that in mind, he feels a particular weight of responsibility to do right by fans like himself.

“I feel a special burden laying me down, crushing me, of just wanting to deliver for this thing that I love, and my mom loves, and so many of the women in my family love. I just want so much for the show to deliver for the people who really love it the thing that they love, while at the same time truly creating something that can translate to television,” Judkins says. “It’s built as a book series, I have to build this as a TV show. I hope that the changes that I’ve made and the changes we’ve had to make to do that still give the heart of it that people can fall in love with.”

Whatever his angle, his perspective on this is heavily contrasted by how people have compared the show to the books. Tonally, they are the same. Tonally, they are also different. The characters are aged up and have much more complex relationships. Is this all in spirit of the books, or is it something different? This isn't some binary value to attribute here. And it's very divisive in the fanbase right now.

It's not what would be expected from a 'fan' like say Denis Villeneuve or Peter Jackson, who take their fandom to an expected level of respect towards the source material. Rafe Judkin's approach of having liked the originals but thinks there's plenty to change because that's what he thinks would work better 'for TV'. It's basically the books being filtered through his personal lens of how he wants it to be. And if that means diverging from the book descriptions of races in order to diversify the ethnicities of the cast, or adding in more LGBT relationships because the books made some passing mentions and hints of it, then that's pretty much what is already happening. And it's not a case of it all being bad, but a case that it is definitely not what is being expected out of a book adaptation.

And where creative liberties are concerned regarding the sexuality of characters, the show has clearly taken them and shown us that it's not intent on stopping. With each episode, character relations are shifting more and more away from what the books have established.

[rhorle]

It's not reading way too much when we have Warders in clear polygamous relationships, bordering on homosexuality, and the Warders being completely open to it.

I know you've stated you have read the books but I think you should read them again to refresh your knowledge of the lore. Greens take multiple warders and can engage in sexual acts with them.

"The Greens are also known for their love of men, and in fact some Greens like men to such an extent that they may even marry their Warder. Those Greens with only one Warder are typically married to him. It is even rumored that Myrelle Berengari has married three of her Warders, in defiance of all custom. " That is even the green Lan gets sent to when Moirane dies. She attempts to heal lan through the healing power of sex

[Triceron]

I feel very confident that Lan and Perrin will never have a homosexual relationship with each other in the show. Remember he didn't just threaten to make them gay...he threatened to make them gay for each other.

Given the events that take place in this weeks episode...I'm also pretty confident that neither Lan nor Perrin will have a homosexual relationship with anyone else either.

I asked how confident you are that Lan will not explore a homosexual relationship. That you have to then specify that relationship being between Lan and Perrin specifically tells me that you'd hesitate to say that specifically about Lan exploring a homosexual relationship.

I don't have anything wrong with Rafe's example of Lan and Perrin. I have a problem with him blatantly making an off-handed, in-poor-taste comment about his authority as showrunner and his ability to make characters gay.

Again, can you say with utmost confidence that the show will never make Lan gay?

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"The Greens are also known for their love of men, and in fact some Greens like men to such an extent that they may even marry their Warder. Those Greens with only one Warder are typically married to him. It is even rumored that Myrelle Berengari has married three of her Warders, in defiance of all custom. " That is even the green Lan gets sent to when Moirane dies. She attempts to heal lan through the healing power of sex

And would you interpret this as Lan being potentially homosexual or exploring homosexuality? Again, let's be clear here.

Can you say with confidence that the show would not take creative liberties to explore that angle?

[rhorle]

And would you interpret this as Lan being potentially homosexual or exploring homosexuality? Again, let's be clear here.

Moving the goal post are we? You took issue with warders potentially being in a polygamous relationship as a "change" from the show.

The sister I pointed out marries 3 of her warders. Threesomes and other acts would not be out of the realm of possibility. Lan and Moirane are not in a relationship and she only has one warder. Though notably she does send to the green in question and "the fourth marriage knife" is assumed to be for Lan. Obviously that doesn't happen per the story.

[Triceron]

Moving the goal post are we?

I asked a specific question that you didn't answer, how is that moving a goalpost?

What you posted? It even says it's a rumor. The books have been ambiguous about such things. It's never been as obvious as the show immediately shows.