[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Shadowferal]

So write new IPs, ,

Yup.
WoT isn't the ip to push a particular agenda.

[Orby]

Exactly, this just proves that they don't care one bit about diversity or minority groups, they go for these big IPs because they have the name, and their fake little formulas give them projections, but they don't read the people at all.

They should take LGBTQ material and make films out of it, same with stuff written by different ethnic people that have original characters. Make them popular instead.. yet they do what they do..

Saying that.. they could make Arad Domani a sexually liberal place, i don't think the book specifically specifies, so it's open, Illian and Tear owuld not do, Cairhien is very much like France in my mind, so you can have elements of that. Absolutely not in the Aiel, - Andor's a bit like UK/US so there can be elements there, but why divert screen time to show it specifically, you can just sometimes show tow men holding hands.

Nah, it won't work, the climate and atmosphere of some of those places is too fixed after certain periods in our history, to add such elements would totally change the vibe and the historical parallel, this is why you have to do it with a remote lad like arad Doman that isn't modelled on one of our real life countries.

you can also have elements of it amongst the Red Ajah, and the Black Tower. the Inquisitors of the Children of Light, there are areas you can slide it in, but to change major characters and major nations, it ruins the whole vibe.

I don't think its them not caring I think its just ignorance in thinking 'durr well there's no fantasy by people in minority groups so we gotta change the most popular fantasy not by them" despite the fact that fantasy by minority groups are on the rise (which is good) but p[opular Hollywood producer attending PR meetings thinks otherwise.

[Beloren]

I don't think its them not caring I think its just ignorance in thinking 'durr well there's no fantasy by people in minority groups so we gotta change the most popular fantasy not by them" despite the fact that fantasy by minority groups are on the rise (which is good) but popular Hollywood producer attending PR meetings thinks otherwise.

Which is a bit "RASIST" in itself too.

[Rennadrel]

A big part of EOTW is they don't know who the Dragon is. If the first scene is Tam on the slopes of the Dragonmount, you give that away.

Yes and no. It's ~18 years between that moment and the first chapter of EOTW, Tam would age a fair bit in that time, or maybe his face wouldn't even have to be shown in the opening scene, just him kneeling in front of a woman, their faces hidden from view. You can create intrigue without actually giving away who characters are.

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I don't think its them not caring I think its just ignorance in thinking 'durr well there's no fantasy by people in minority groups so we gotta change the most popular fantasy not by them" despite the fact that fantasy by minority groups are on the rise (which is good) but p[opular Hollywood producer attending PR meetings thinks otherwise.

A lot of the most popular fantasy series still are those rooted in Christian and Catholic religious and social narratives. WoT is, despite having a power structure where women are the ruling class in a lot of instances, so is literally everything in LotR, and even Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere is entirely rooted in it. And those are the 3 I've read the most, no doubt there are more. But you can have great worlds using a variety of influences, they don't have to be religiously driven either, or they can use other faiths to draw from as well since other cultures do have different types of power structures and different norms.

Robert Jordan did a good job of creating his own unique thing and making a variety of unique cultures, while still having class structures and different power dynamics between different nations. It's on the writers to create great stories, and I hope that we start seeing them come from other people in larger quantities than we are because there is an untapped market for diverse writing in that sense, but there is zero reason to change an already established IP to suit a narrative that has no relevance in existing lore. It'll just confuse people who go and read the books as well, which I'm sure a lot of people will.

[Orby]

Which is a bit "RACIST" in itself too.

I tend to separate racist from general ignorance due to lack of proper research..

A lot of the most popular fantasy series still are those rooted in Christian and Catholic religious and social narratives. WoT is, despite having a power structure where women are the ruling class in a lot of instances, so is literally everything in LotR, and even Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere is entirely rooted in it. And those are the 3 I've read the most, no doubt there are more. But you can have great worlds using a variety of influences, they don't have to be religiously driven either, or they can use other faiths to draw from as well since other cultures do have different types of power structures and different norms.

Robert Jordan did a good job of creating his own unique thing and making a variety of unique cultures, while still having class structures and different power dynamics between different nations. It's on the writers to create great stories, and I hope that we start seeing them come from other people in larger quantities than we are because there is an untapped market for diverse writing in that sense, but there is zero reason to change an already established IP to suit a narrative that has no relevance in existing lore. It'll just confuse people who go and read the books as well, which I'm sure a lot of people will.

Ohh 100% correct, I think in popular culture which is generally white fantasy set in a medieval fantasy setting is still top popular fantasy, which is why I think its important that fantasy written by minority groups should be highlighted that way we can get less of Hollywood thinking that it doesn't exist to begin with...

As someone who is generally nose down in books there enough fantasy out there for everyone.

[Smallfruitbat]

Are people really expecting a 1:1 adaption of the books? That will never work. To many characters that only show up once or twice an general way to vast most of the time.

They will definetly merge some characters into one. The format just does not allow a 100% faithfull adaption. Ever. Which will not mean, that it will be bad.
Just... adjust what you are expecting a bit.

As a fan, my overarching concern is that they remain respectful of the source material and don't start rewriting things unnecessarily. I don't mind if all the Aes Sedai get rolled into a handful of characters or if half the nobles squabbling over the sun throne get cut. I'd be disappointed if they start changing the main characters for the sake of it.

I also don't want to see a bunch of sex scenes just to draw people in. The very few that are in the book are meaningful to the story, I don't want to see GoT style sexposition.

[VinceVega]

As a fan, my overarching concern is that they remain respectful of the source material and don't start rewriting things unnecessarily. I don't mind if all the Aes Sedai get rolled into a handful of characters or if half the nobles squabbling over the sun throne get cut. I'd be disappointed if they start changing the main characters for the sake of it.

I also don't want to see a bunch of sex scenes just to draw people in. The very few that are in the book are meaningful to the story, I don't want to see GoT style sexposition.

Well nothing indicates that they are doing it^^
Will you get a bit of fanservice? For male or female! I am conviced that will happen. You will see rand probably shirtless at least once every episode. Because they know you can catch a good amount of people with it and it does not make much difference. On the other hand i cannot imgaine you will see much nudity form the women as they got depicted quite... prudish in the books tbh. Robert Jordan was on the rather conservative/coverup side in that regard.

But persoan-cult drives tv-shows. Be it because someone is very hot (mila jovovich in all her terrible movies, or that hemsworth guy) or really good written and bit comic relief (Tyrion in GoT). These depictions keep people glued to the screen.
So if we get one or the other but in turn the tv show will be on air longer i am fine with it.

Because lets face it. This show will NEVER be able to make all the books. For one because each season probably takes about 2 years to make so some of the main actors will be in their early 60 when you get to the last books (rosamunde Pike) or late 40s (Joshua Stadowski) when the books just are around 3 years i think.

[Smallfruitbat]

Well nothing indicates that they are doing it^^

Will you get a bit of fanservice? For male or female! I am conviced that will happen. You will see rand probably shirtless at least once every episode. Because they know you can catch a good amount of people with it and it does not make much difference. On the other hand i cannot imgaine you will see much nudity form the women as they got depicted quite... prudish in the books tbh. Robert Jordan was on the rather conservative/coverup side in that regard.

But persoan-cult drives tv-shows. Be it because someone is very hot (mila jovovich in all her terrible movies, or that hemsworth guy) or really good written and bit comic relief (Tyrion in GoT). These depictions keep people glued to the screen.
So if we get one or the other but in turn the tv show will be on air longer i am fine with it.

Some of the women are depicted as prudish, although there is a LOT of nudity in the Aes Sedai rituals. The Aiel by contrast seem quite happy sitting around in their sweat tents starkers. Then there are the Shienaren baths, the Sea folk women were all topless as soon as they were out of sight of the shore. In the books at least it gave a sense of contrast between the different cultures, I have no problems with nudity in that context. Hopefully it won't be long before we're proved right or wrong.

[ravenmoon]

Some of the women are depicted as prudish, although there is a LOT of nudity in the Aes Sedai rituals. The Aiel by contrast seem quite happy sitting around in their sweat tents starkers. Then there are the Shienaren baths, the Sea folk women were all topless as soon as they were out of sight of the shore. In the books at least it gave a sense of contrast between the different cultures, I have no problems with nudity in that context. Hopefully it won't be long before we're proved right or wrong.

Wanna bet they'd completely ignore this and force nude/sex scenes within the main characters like everywhere and in every thing.

Can you imagine spending the millions in a tv show to get showrunners that don't care a toss about the original content, but just in making catchy attention seeking flashy scenes for clout.. and wonder why the fans totally stink up a storm.

But I guess if you don't like it, you'd be called a white supremacist, rasisist, instaphobe or homophobe - even if you are non-white, gay and check more diversity boxes than most of them.

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I hope they don't, but we shouldn't jump the gun and they this would be the case.. do we have genuine cause for concern yet? Or are we just going on what they've done for SW, ST, She-ra, He-man etc (or at least by reports)

[Nynax]

Are people really expecting a 1:1 adaption of the books? That will never work. To many characters that only show up once or twice an general way to vast most of the time.

They will definetly merge some characters into one. The format just does not allow a 100% faithfull adaption. Ever. Which will not mean, that it will be bad.
Just... adjust what you are expecting a bit.

I know a couple people that hate, loathe, no despise the Lord of the Rings movies because they aren't 1:1 adaptations; haha. I won't be surprised if the WoT show sends some fans into a blind frenzy.

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Wanna bet they'd completely ignore this and force nude/sex scenes within the main characters like everywhere and in every thing.

Can you imagine spending the millions in a tv show to get showrunners that don't care a toss about the original content, but just in making catchy attention seeking flashy scenes for clout.. and wonder why the fans totally stink up a storm.

But I guess if you don't like it, you'd be called a white supremacist, rasisist, instaphobe or homophobe - even if you are non-white, gay and check more diversity boxes than most of them.

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I hope they don't, but we shouldn't jump the gun and they this would be the case.. do we have genuine cause for concern yet? Or are we just going on what they've done for SW, ST, She-ra, He-man etc (or at least by reports)

The best part here, is that old fans will legitimately be able to say "I don't like it because it's not diversive enough!" Then launch into an explanation of all the culture that got taken out. Stops the "you must be____" arguments.

[Smallfruitbat]

Wanna bet they'd completely ignore this and force nude/sex scenes within the main characters like everywhere and in every thing.

Can you imagine spending the millions in a tv show to get showrunners that don't care a toss about the original content, but just in making catchy attention seeking flashy scenes for clout.. and wonder why the fans totally stink up a storm.

But I guess if you don't like it, you'd be called a white supremacist, rasisist, instaphobe or homophobe - even if you are non-white, gay and check more diversity boxes than most of them.

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I hope they don't, but we shouldn't jump the gun and they this would be the case.. do we have genuine cause for concern yet? Or are we just going on what they've done for SW, ST, She-ra, He-man etc (or at least by reports)

My concern comes from an interview with Brandon Sanderson where he says that they have made one change he thinks will upset some fans. There is some speculation based on this and the casting that the series starts with Perrin married to a woman named Layla, which changes the premise somewhat from Eye of the World having 3 'boys' all of whom could be the Dragon Reborn

[Adamas102]

I don't think its them not caring I think its just ignorance in thinking 'durr well there's no fantasy by people in minority groups so we gotta change the most popular fantasy not by them" despite the fact that fantasy by minority groups are on the rise (which is good) but popular Hollywood producer attending PR meetings thinks otherwise.

Well, there is also an issue that costs and expectations have been blown WAY out of proportion over the past couple decades. It's not just relegated to fantasy stuff, but everything from LOTR to GOT have set a really high bar in terms of production value (costumes, props, sets, CGI, etc). If you don't have the brand recognition or a big name already willing to join the project, then it's nearly impossible to secure the money for what people now expect of these types of movies/shows. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there wanting to adapt lesser known properties, including fantasy works by people of color, but they also need to find someone willing to risk $50+ million on it or just accept that they probably won't make much/any money off of it.

Which is a bit "RASIST" in itself too.

Not necessarily. If you're going to invest millions of dollars into something, you would probably want to maximize your chances of seeing a return on that investment. Like I said above, I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd love to adapt lesser known IP's, but if you want your fantasy movie/show to reach a wide audience (like getting picked up by a big streaming service) then you need a pretty hefty chunk of money. Even with established IPs it's still a risk, but having name recognition goes a long way.

On the other hand, saying minorities should just "write new IP's" and implying that integrating them into more popular IP's makes for "an inferior product" is indeed pretty racist. Essentially telling minorities that they haven't earned this sort of popularity yet and that the "racial purity" of your more popular, established works needs to be maintained just reeks of it.

Now, I'm very much in favor of good adaptations that are true to the source material in terms of tone and story. However, I think race/gender swapping is almost never an issue, ESPECIALLY when adapting fantasy stories that don't even take place in our world. I also think it's a bit silly to suggest that projects like this that do make an effort for more diversity are sacrificing writing/directing quality by simply changing the casting call requirements. If the writing and/or directing is off, it will fail regardless of how "true to the book" the casting was.

[Shadowferal]

My concern comes from an interview with Brandon Sanderson where he says that they have made one change he thinks will upset some fans. There is some speculation based on this and the casting that the series starts with Perrin married to a woman named Layla, which changes the premise somewhat from Eye of the World having 3 'boys' all of whom could be the Dragon Reborn

That's not a small alteration.

[Zaktar]

That's not a small alteration.

Trying to look it up, I see lots of speculation about it but not a whole lot of evidence. The source I could find for the information did not appear credible.

[VinceVega]

I know a couple people that hate, loathe, no despise the Lord of the Rings movies because they aren't 1:1 adaptations; haha. I won't be surprised if the WoT show sends some fans into a blind frenzy.

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The best part here, is that old fans will legitimately be able to say "I don't like it because it's not diversive enough!" Then launch into an explanation of all the culture that got taken out. Stops the "you must be____" arguments.

Well yeah. These feverish "fans" would also go up in arms if the actual author would expand or change anything... weird people...

[Skizzit]

My concern comes from an interview with Brandon Sanderson where he says that they have made one change he thinks will upset some fans. There is some speculation based on this and the casting that the series starts with Perrin married to a woman named Layla, which changes the premise somewhat from Eye of the World having 3 'boys' all of whom could be the Dragon Reborn

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they all around 19-20 at the start of the series?

[WernerCD]

I read his first book, "Wizard's First Rule," and that's all I'll read.

Other comments from acquaintances of mine were/might be spoilers:

[I]I stopped reading after Faith of the Fallen when Goodkind stops being a fantasy writer with Randian overtones and just makes Richard Rahl into John Galt. The rest started to degenerate into an Objectivism/rapefest. The problem with Faith of the Fallen is that it's less a fantasy novel than a philosophy lesson (it's less rapey than the last two books). I suppose you if don't mind that sort of thing it's fine however after reading the first five books and watching them slide from storytelling to ham-fisted indoctrination with a bunch of gratuitous rape scenes, S&M bodyguards, and naughty nuns thrown in it just got really tiresome.[/I]

Well, they did say it best.



Dumai's Wells had me nearly yelling at the book. (...and I was in a public place so that was awkward)
But to get to that punch, the whole system and story needs to be bought into in its entirety. That's what made it so amazingly epic.
The book has you nearly forgetting all about the newly created "Black Tower" or the Asha'man, until a hollow boom sounds in that chapter and a black coats come pouring out of a gateway..."OMFG!!11" And then the crowing words that ended that chapter so damnably well; [i]"I said you would be on equal footing with the Tower emissaries, and for bringing nine, you will be. They are on their knees, Aes Sedai. Kneel!

Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt."[/i]

Women never bowed to any man, until that ending.

Random thoughts;
Perrin coming into his own. And a master of the dream world to boot. (Dissipating balefire was awesome) Crafting a Power-wrought war-maul named for Hopper.
Mat, the Raven Prince. And realizing what it meant to give up half of the light of the world to save the world. Damn.
And seeing who Noal truly was, was a loose-end that I wasn't too bothered by had it passed. But now...Jain Farstrider...whoa.
Moiraine and Thom. Did NOT see that coming.

I just can't see any production doing the whole of it justice.

My penultimate scene I want to see... Perrin crafting Mah'alleinir...

but I agree with the running sentiment. History is full of bad adaptations and a couple of good. For every Harry Potter and LotR adaptation... there is an Enders Game and Dune adaptation that loses the heart of the story. I think a TV series has a better chance... but the odds of seeing the end of it in a world where popular things like Altered Carbon get canceled? Even if they nail WoT? We'll get 2 of the 20 seasons it'll take to do it justice.

[Shadowferal]

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they all around 19-20 at the start of the series?

Late teens. By the time the series ends they're all in their early 20s.

[WernerCD]

Honestly, there are only really two BAD books in the series, like absolutely horrible. I know a lot of fans have a disdain for Winter's Heart, but I think that was the last good one that RJ wrote. Knife of Dreams and Crossroads of Twilight are basically to WoT what Twilight is to fantasy, a bunch of overly dramatic and emotional nonsense from a couple of characters, then some filler main story shit. Honestly, Perrin was probably most poorly written of all the main WoT characters, particularly towards of the series. I thought the whole Wolf realm thing was convoluted at times, not to mention his whole drama with Faile getting captured was extremely boring. Otherwise, the series was really good throughout. I know a lot of people didn't like TGS much and I believe it could have had some better character writing, but Sanderson made up for it in Towers of Midnight.

The problem with books ~7 through ~11 is that a lot of the stories could be moved as prologue/postlogue blurbs. Queen Morgase could be a footnote as could a large chunk of other "secondary" characters that end up taking large chunks of chapters. Jordan had a flair for words... but he got bogged down in the details in the middle. The simple fact that it took half of a whole book to catch up to the previous was a symptom of an overly complex and buried in details story lines.

[Nynax]

My concern comes from an interview with Brandon Sanderson where he says that they have made one change he thinks will upset some fans. There is some speculation based on this and the casting that the series starts with Perrin married to a woman named Layla, which changes the premise somewhat from Eye of the World having 3 'boys' all of whom could be the Dragon Reborn

but...Perrin being married, even if the wife dies early, upends an utterly massive part of his character story and growth arc. I means, does Faile just get cut entirely? If not, do they now have to fundamentally change the nature of their relationship dynamic? Perrin's innocence and inexperience were important in setting that up.

*insert Jackie Chan confused meme*