1. #581
    So there was an image released that showed Loial. It is a different look they are going with. And he is a lot shorter than book Loial. I guess that was only to be expected.

  2. #582
    Never read the books, and knew nothing about the story.

    It's sometimes hard to get into high fantasy stories (due to the depth, amount of characters and their motivations, setting names and descriptions). So far, I'm enjoying it though after 3 eps. Can't wait to see what the rest of the season brings.

    One thing I noticed was I'm definitely getting legend of the seeker vibes from this.

  3. #583
    I didn't have any major complaints about the first three episodes. I don't get the hate for Lan's portrayal so far. He's as close to book accurate as you can get. The same for Thom and his cloak. I read that people were complaining that is wasn't the patched multicolor version of the book. So the patches are on the inside, not that big of a change. At least not something to get upset about. My only concern was the change to Perrin and him being married. In the books Perrin isn't given much to do at first so that is the only reason i can see why they made the change.

    As far as book accuracy I think Episode 2 was very close to the book. While episode 3 took a few shortcuts that I can understand. Perrin not meeting Elyas and Mat/Rand not getting on the boat are acceptable cuts for moving the plot along. Especially the boat. And leaving out Min could mean they are leaving out the prophecy side of the books altogether. While the prophecies in the books were a fun way to create mystery about future events, translating that to live action could create more problems than it solves. And if they decide to avoid the three wives part of the books, than Min doesn't rally offer much to the story.

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    You haven't given any reason as to why they are bad choices.
    Of course I have. Changing the Dragon Reborn to a woman is silly because the big danger is that male channelers go insane while female ones don't - that's why everyone is afraid of the Dragon Reborn returning. If that wasn't a danger, the whole Dragon Reborn thing wouldn't be a big deal in the world.

    And pretending like it COULD be a woman but then revealing it never really could have because it was always going to be Rand is stupid because it's insulting to pretend equity exists when you know all along there's no chance of it actually being the case. That's like saying "you go girl, you could be the CEO too!" and then ending with "but let's be real, the man was always going to get the job".

    Both changes are idiotic. Not because they're "not how it was in the book" but because they don't make sense and/or are insultingly stupid writing.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyvax View Post
    Never read the books, and knew nothing about the story.

    It's sometimes hard to get into high fantasy stories (due to the depth, amount of characters and their motivations, setting names and descriptions). So far, I'm enjoying it though after 3 eps. Can't wait to see what the rest of the season brings.

    One thing I noticed was I'm definitely getting legend of the seeker vibes from this.
    You should, Terry Goodkind straight up stole whole concepts from WoT and put them in the Sword of Truth series

  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    You should, Terry Goodkind straight up stole whole concepts from WoT and put them in the Sword of Truth series
    Sword of Truth is Goodkind's love letter to Ayn Rand masquerading as a fantasy series that presents itself as if it were "Wheel of Time: The Snyder Cut"

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    No, I'm angry because these are both two bad options. You're portraying it as though those were the ONLY options, which is at best disingenuous.

    Imagine you getting a sandwich at a restaurant and it's moldy, then sending it back and getting a rotten one instead - and the waiter goes "well I guess you were just going to be angry no matter what we do". That's not how it works, so don't portray it like that, please.
    Cept the sandwich isn't actually moldy and you're looking for things to complain like the soup being too cold or the sandwich having too much mustard for your tastes. And really that's fine to complain about but it's certainly not some universal bad like you think it is.

    If others are enjoying what you don't like, then it can't really be compared to being moldy just because you personally didn't like the changes. This isn't a universal standard of bad we're talking about.

    Granted, I don't particularly care for the changes nor am I defending the writing, which I fully regard as spotty, but they aren't as bad as you are making them out to be. It's not a moldy sandwich for the majority of people who are watching it. Just like any adaptation will have its dubious choices for the sake of appealing to a more general audience and throwing in more drama for the sake of drama, because this is TV we're talking about. End of the day, this is a made for TV series, not a cohesive world as told in the books. They're throwing in changes that make no sense to those who pay attention to the details, but really the series is not made for the details at all and it's a broad strokes adaptation for a broad audience that aims to capitalize on the GoT fantasy craze, that's all.

    The cohesive story telling is probably the last thing to get out of any TV adaptation. And it's not moldy just because it doesn't suit your tastes, my point being more that it's likely that TV adaptations of fantasy may simply not be suitable for your particular needs.

    Outside of the LOTR movies, there really aren't that many fantasy adaptations that really stay true to the source material. This especially if we're talking TV series.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-21 at 04:50 AM.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Cept the sandwich isn't actually moldy and you're looking for things to complain like the soup being too cold or the sandwich having too much mustard for your tastes. And really that's fine to complain about but it's certainly not some universal bad like you think it is.
    I mean, why do we have to go from one strawman to another? How did "I hate these two options" turn into "universal bad"? Can people really not differentiate between "I'm unhappy with this thing and this other thing" and "I'm unhappy with EVERYTHING" anymore?
    Last edited by Biomega; 2021-11-21 at 04:45 AM.

  9. #589
    For a series I'd only heard about the show was yeah... not great??

    Minotaurs, led by a knockoff ring wraith, attack a village with a group of friends one of whom is possibly a reincarnation of the one who "broke the world" (which tbh the world looks very intact). There's some lawful stupid paladins burning all the magic people and magic city of unexplained death. Also some gender politics stuff which is barley touched upon, where men go made if they're magic?

    Beyond the general idea of reincarnation nothing about the show seems very interesting.

    I assume the books are better

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Sword of Truth is Goodkind's love letter to Ayn Rand masquerading as a fantasy series that presents itself as if it were "Wheel of Time: The Snyder Cut"
    Fair assessment

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I mean, why do we have to go from one strawman to another? How did "I hate these two options" turn into "universal bad"? Can people really not differentiate between "I'm unhappy with this thing and this other thing" and "I'm unhappy with EVERYTHING" anymore?
    Because a moldy sandwich is not a criticism of preference. It's universally bad. No one will go out of their way to vouch for a moldy sandwich at any restaurant.


    If you're unhappy with it, that's fine. But really, what you're unhappy with is literally a personal preference issue more than anything, and your comparison was stretched beyond personal preference, it was deeming the adaptation (or parts of it) as being rotten, which really it isn't. It's definitely not a great or faithful adaptation, but it's not rotten either.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-21 at 05:11 AM.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Of course I have. Changing the Dragon Reborn to a woman is silly because the big danger is that male channelers go insane while female ones don't - that's why everyone is afraid of the Dragon Reborn returning. If that wasn't a danger, the whole Dragon Reborn thing wouldn't be a big deal in the world.

    And pretending like it COULD be a woman but then revealing it never really could have because it was always going to be Rand is stupid because it's insulting to pretend equity exists when you know all along there's no chance of it actually being the case. That's like saying "you go girl, you could be the CEO too!" and then ending with "but let's be real, the man was always going to get the job".

    Both changes are idiotic. Not because they're "not how it was in the book" but because they don't make sense and/or are insultingly stupid writing.
    That whole thing about "equity" applies just as much to Perrin and Matt as it does to Egwene. That "CEO position" is being dangled in thier face as much as it is Egwene's.... but Rand's gonna be the big winner there... if you consider having the fate of the world resting on your shoulders a win. With the added kicker that you might just go completely crazy and make everything worse.

    As far as "gender equity" goes...women in WoT can channel the One Power without going insane...so Egwene's already kind of ahead of the game. And yeah, This version of Moirraine is probably really hoping it is Egwene...so she doesn't have to deal with the added complication of trying to keep the Dragon Reborn from going insane before saving the world. Really would be the best thing for everyone.

  13. #593
    Just watched the opening episodes. I'm astounded how bad it is. I appreciate that adaptions need to make changes, but you expect respectful changes based on necessity and playing to the medium, not... whatever garbage this was. This isn't some reflexive "purist" thing, you can really feel when changes are driven by someone who respects a story vs. someone who wants to hijack a story with little respect for the original. This comes across as the latter.

    Perrin being married and accidentally killing his wife? Holy crap. What idiot writer thought that was a good idea as the starting point in the series for Perrin? It comes across as some very clumsy writers wanting to copy the Game of Thrones "random horrible bad things can happen to people" vibe with zero forethought. Perrin starting the story with an event that would cause incredible, crushing, soul-destroying guilt for the rest of his life and loom over the character forever afterward is an insane thing to add to an adaptation. The little touch of them starting the first episode by showing Perrin drinking with his friends while his WIFE works the forge also felt... well, very 2021, but that's a minor quibble compared to the absurdity of having Perrin accidentally axe her.

    And adaption or not, Wheel of Time has an excellent prologue that does a great job at setting the stage. They threw that away. The opening monologue replacing it was just... awful. No real sense of respect for what the original Dragon DID accomplish, which is a pretty big deal - the 100 Companions actually did imprison the Dark One and the prison held for a couple thousand years up until the series starts, but the monologue makes you think it was just some giant total failure of an effort, rather than something that stopped the Dark One from winning the ancient war at the price of their sanity afterwards. It felt written by someone who wanted to be like, "damn MEN, they're so arrogant, everything bad is because of them." I suppose the speech would have fit if the opening was being monologued by a Red Ajah, but it didn't feel fitting to Moiraine at all.

    The minor touch of "the Dragon could be any one of you four" also felt disrespectful to the premise. The books never remotely entertain the notion that the Dragon could have been anything other than a man. It is utterly inherent to the story. Massive preparations, prophecies referencing "him", etc., have built up to the return of the man who would wield the male half of the Source and face the Dark One. Little lines from Moiraine in this TV series like, "The Dragon, whoever SHE or he may be..." just come across as very stupid inserts. I remember when I read the books way back, and one of the actual draws to the series was how unique the gender dynamics were - women guiding the world, the only ones able to wield magic safely, the history of the male wielders. The opening episode should have made far better use of that draw, and instead it squanders it and wastes precious time on awful dialogue and crappy exposition.

    The cheapest aspect of this production, and the thing they had longest to prepare, was the writing. There is no excuse for an adaptation to be this badly written. This makes Shannara look well thought out. It feels like something written by the B-Team at the CW.

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because a moldy sandwich is not a criticism of preference. It's universally bad. No one will go out of their way to vouch for a moldy sandwich at any restaurant.
    But that's not the point. The analogy works even if you swap it out for something preferential, like idk I ordered a pork sandwich and you got me chicken salad, I sent it back and you brought me roast beef. Etc. Did you seriously not understand that analogy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If you're unhappy with it, that's fine. But really, what you're unhappy with is literally a personal preference issue more than anything, and your comparison was stretched beyond personal preference, it was deeming the adaptation (or parts of it) as being rotten, which really it isn't. It's definitely not a great or faithful adaptation, but it's not rotten either.
    So you're saying me being unhappy is personal preference, but you're justified in calling it "not great"? Is that not personal preference, too? Of course it is. Because we're not dealing with objective truth here. ANY assessment of the show is going to be subjective, and pointing that out is as useful as a toilet paper umbrella. But you're misrepresenting things, because I've not JUST said "I don't like it", I've given what I think are fairly detailed justifications for that opinion. To portray that as "oh it's just preference" is a little disingenuous. I'm interested in debate, not simply pitting one simple opinion against another. How about offering something substantial as a rebuttal? WHY is NOT a problem for the show to suggest the Dragon Reborn could be a woman?

    ===EDIT===
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    That whole thing about "equity" applies just as much to Perrin and Matt as it does to Egwene.
    No. Not "just as much". There's a diegetic reason for the possibility - watching male ta'veren as to whether or not they are the Dragon Reborn substantially shapes the plot, because there is a real danger (them going insane) that affects how they are treated; and how they are treated in turn affects everything else that follows in the plot. That doesn't work for Egwene, because the entire premise doesn't hold for a woman (since female channelers don't go insane). I'm talking about intradiegetic consistency here, not extradiegetic knowledge. If that was an argument, you could just go "oh come on we all know how it ends why is there drama and action if we know the bad guys will lose" which is just nonsense for obvious reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    As far as "gender equity" goes...women in WoT can channel the One Power without going insane...so Egwene's already kind of ahead of the game. And yeah, This version of Moirraine is probably really hoping it is Egwene...so she doesn't have to deal with the added complication of trying to keep the Dragon Reborn from going insane before saving the world. Really would be the best thing for everyone.
    Except that doesn't work in the way the world is set up, because the plot is centered around the ambiguous nature of the Dragon Reborn. That's the whole reason the Aes Sedai became what they are now, why the Red Ajah is so strong, why male channelers are such a big problem, etc. etc. An entire catalog of world-building and world-defining events rests on that singular problem, and if you do away with it there's a SUBSTANTIAL shift in the ENTIRE plot.

    Of course it would super easy if Egwene was the Dragon, just had her shit together, marched against the Dark One with everyone's support, easy ending, done and dusted. But that's like saying "hey but what if Anakin didn't turn to the dark side, that'd solve a lot of problems" - yeah no shit BUT THAT'S NOT HOW THE STORY GOES.
    Last edited by Biomega; 2021-11-21 at 06:58 AM.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But that's not the point. The analogy works even if you swap it out for something preferential, like idk I ordered a pork sandwich and you got me chicken salad, I sent it back and you brought me roast beef. Etc. Did you seriously not understand that analogy?
    Then use a better analogy.

    Rotten food is universally bad, and you were making that direct comparison of being offered food that is considered universally bad. That's not a preference, that's not criticism of the food itself, it's just pointing out something that was universally considered wrong. So I seriously did understand the analogy, and am pointing out that it's not an analogy that you should have made.

    Nor does the pork and chicken salad work either, since it's obvious you're ordering the wrong thing rather than the network serving you something you didn't order at all. A better analogy is if you ordered a pork sandwich knowing it's a pork sandwich but you didn't expect it prepared in a way that offended your preferences, like if they added cranberry sauce or too much mayo for your tastes. And that's fine if that is your criticism, but it's really not applicable to saying they served you the wrong food when you're not the only customer at the restaurant, and the analogy would imply that the restaurant serves other guests and not just you. You didn't make an analogy about a personal chef, right? You said restaurant, so the analogy would imply that others are being served the same thing. And if we take a look at your particular criticisms and compare them to that of the general state of the series; well there's quite a disconnect between your personal beefs and considering it as them serving everyone the wrong meal.

    If you want an analogy that applies to your personal criticisms, then you shouldn't be making comparisons to a restaurant that serves every customer the same meal while making the criticism that they're serving you the wrong one, which implies that they're pushing this problem on to everyone else and other people are dealing with the problem in their own way. But really, it's not a problem at all, it's just a matter of changes, for better or worse. That comes with being an adaptation, and not a close-to-the-source direct translation of the book.

    So you're saying me being unhappy is personal preference, but you're justified in calling it "not great"?
    I'm not the one making analogies about the series being equivalent of universally bad rotten food. If that's the analogy you made, that's the message you pushed across, whether you intended to or not.

    As I said, nothing wrong with you presenting your personal opinion. But if you're going to make an analogy out of it, then work on communicating it more properly, because the ones you used only consider how you personally feel, while you're using examples that apply much more broadly and to a wider audience than yourself. By implying 'the restaurant serves moldy food' you also imply that this restaurant serves rotten food to everyone, since we're all literally consuming the same content. We're eating the same meal as you are here. It might not be what you want to say, but that's all a part of your analogy.

    And my point is, even though the show is far from great (IMO), it's clearly not considered rotten, at least not in the way you presented your analogy. The analogy only works for your particular tastes if we're talking about everyone being able to order a different meal, but let's remember we're literally talking about the same show, the same meal, and there's no way the restaurant can single you out and present the wrong meal while everyone else has theirs correct. The analogy doesn't work that way with this type of content. We're all consuming the exact same thing. If the food is rotten, then everyone's food is rotten. That's how the analogy applies here. There's no menu of options of 'Wheel of Time TV series'. It's one series we're all talking about.

    How about offering something substantial as a rebuttal? WHY is NOT a problem for the show to suggest the Dragon Reborn could be a woman?
    The creators have their choices. I'm in no position to defend their choices since I don't vouch for decisions like this. I simply don't see it as impactful as you do when considering if the Dragon Reborn could be a woman or not.

    The way I interpret the TV series, Moraine has taken the 4 away to protect them. In the context of this adaptation, the viewers don't know who or what the Dragon is, yet they know the 4 characters are important. If it was a clear 'he/him', then we automatically know Egwene is not the important one. Yet the show clearly wants to illustrate some importance onto her character, and keep it ambiguous since she was so far the only one in the show who shows any skill in 'magical powers' at that point in the show. I would consider this the writers wanting to add in a minor red herring to keep the audience guessing. For the book readers who know the ins and out, this will seem like a travesty, but for a casual TV series watcher, it opens up people vouching for Egwene (or even Nynaeve) as a possible candidate and helps get people get invested into the character.

    Is it a good change? Can't say either way, since the series is completely new and I don't know any casual peeps talking about this show yet. But the way I see the change as a casual audience goer, this is clearly written with purpose to elevate interest in the female character. And whether this pays off or not is something we have to see in retrospect. It really depends on how loosely they want to adapt this and how many 'moments' they want to give Egwene over the course of the series to make her more of a fan favourite. The way I see this is similar to Arwen having more 'moments' in the LOTR beyond her very limited appearances in the book. It's to give more investment and interest in the character to a broader audience, and for that I don't really see it as a 'good or bad' thing. I simply see it as a change made in an adaptation which has its own purposes as a different medium than a novel.

    I'd almost say it's like how the Mandalorian spent the entire first season setting up the rules of being a Mandalorian, which went against a whole bunch of established Star Wars lore like Mandalorians being able to take off their helmets (Sabine Wren, the Mandalorians in Clone Wars and Rebels). So something like that was a huge setup that ended up being pretty much a 'red herring' once we find out that Mando is part of some fringe cult and that it's not how the world outside actually regards Mandalorians or what they know. It gets clarified back to the original canon. I can kinda see this happen the same way eventually, when the Dragon Reborn is finally unveiled everyone just moves past the 'She' part as if it never really mattered since the canon remains the same after we find out who it is anyways. But hey, I'm not a hardcore WoT fan so I can't speak out on how important this really is, all I'm presenting is a possible (clear to me) reason why they changed this, and why overall I don't think it will be world-changing in the end. Again, I'm neither defending or denouncing the changes, I'm simply pointing out why I think they exist and for what reasons, and why I don't think they're going to matter much in the end. If there's something more defined from the books about the Dragon having to be male for XYZ reasons, then it's obvious the TV series hasn't really adhered to the same rulesets since it's not establishing any hard rules that the Dragon must be a male (at least not from Moraine's POV).
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-21 at 10:29 AM.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Sword of Truth is Goodkind's love letter to Ayn Rand masquerading as a fantasy series that presents itself as if it were "Wheel of Time: The Snyder Cut"
    I do recall hearing that Richard Rahl does become John Galt. An acquaintance of mine couldn't even finish "Faith of the Fallen" because of it.

  17. #597
    Man, I am so disappointed. I'm always the one to brush aside the changes when a story swaps mediums, but holy nuts.

    Perrin chilldrinking with his bromies while his new wife toils at the forge? Who is this and what have you done with the almost annoyingly protective Perrin? And then he randomly axes her by mistake, how did someone read Perrin's arc and think that would nail it on the silver screen?

    Iirc in the original Egwene joins the squad leaving the Two Rivers on her own and Moiraine accepts her because of her latent powers, which is a much better way of showing us how determined and independent she is. Considering where she ends up she did not need to be forced into the bonkers Dragon Reborn plotline. Which is also just insane, it would upend all the worldbuilding in the books.

    Nynaeve stubbornly tracking the youths and refusing to back down to keep them safe is a whole lot better than the Tomb Raider survival scene they gave us instead. The acting is very spot on for Nynaeve though I will give her that. Minor nitpick: I don't think Nynaeve would ever use healing a dying person as leverage to get her way, she's borderline obsessed witj Healing.

    Two more minor ones: Lan telling Moiraine "ayy fam lotsa Trollocs gonna descend on this village we should split lol" made me wince internally, Lan would never suggest leaving Emond's Field to die. Moiraine might have for the greater good, but Lan would have loudly protested. And the Whitecloaks openly burning Aes Sedai and displaying their rings would never go down in the book world. They hate the witches but cannot do more than bully them if they can't ambush them where they can deny involvement. Because the White Tower is literally the strongest political faction led by magic wielders. They would tear Amadicia and their stronghold down around them if the Children openly brutalised and torched Aes Sedai like that, what the hell.

    I was hyped for so long for this show.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then use a better analogy.

    Rotten food is universally bad, and you were making that direct comparison of being offered food that is considered universally bad. That's not a preference, that's not criticism of the food itself, it's just pointing out something that was universally considered wrong. So I seriously did understand the analogy, and am pointing out that it's not an analogy that you should have made.

    Nor does the pork and chicken salad work either, since it's obvious you're ordering the wrong thing rather than the network serving you something you didn't order at all. A better analogy is if you ordered a pork sandwich knowing it's a pork sandwich but you didn't expect it prepared in a way that offended your preferences, like if they added cranberry sauce or too much mayo for your tastes. And that's fine if that is your criticism, but it's really not applicable to saying they served you the wrong food when you're not the only customer at the restaurant, and the analogy would imply that the restaurant serves other guests and not just you. You didn't make an analogy about a personal chef, right? You said restaurant, so the analogy would imply that others are being served the same thing. And if we take a look at your particular criticisms and compare them to that of the general state of the series; well there's quite a disconnect between your personal beefs and considering it as them serving everyone the wrong meal.

    If you want an analogy that applies to your personal criticisms, then you shouldn't be making comparisons to a restaurant that serves every customer the same meal while making the criticism that they're serving you the wrong one, which implies that they're pushing this problem on to everyone else and other people are dealing with the problem in their own way. But really, it's not a problem at all, it's just a matter of changes, for better or worse. That comes with being an adaptation, and not a close-to-the-source direct translation of the book.



    I'm not the one making analogies about the series being equivalent of universally bad rotten food. If that's the analogy you made, that's the message you pushed across, whether you intended to or not.

    As I said, nothing wrong with you presenting your personal opinion. But if you're going to make an analogy out of it, then work on communicating it more properly, because the ones you used only consider how you personally feel, while you're using examples that apply much more broadly and to a wider audience than yourself. By implying 'the restaurant serves moldy food' you also imply that this restaurant serves rotten food to everyone, since we're all literally consuming the same content. We're eating the same meal as you are here. It might not be what you want to say, but that's all a part of your analogy.

    And my point is, even though the show is far from great (IMO), it's clearly not considered rotten, at least not in the way you presented your analogy. The analogy only works for your particular tastes if we're talking about everyone being able to order a different meal, but let's remember we're literally talking about the same show, the same meal, and there's no way the restaurant can single you out and present the wrong meal while everyone else has theirs correct. The analogy doesn't work that way with this type of content. We're all consuming the exact same thing. If the food is rotten, then everyone's food is rotten. That's how the analogy applies here. There's no menu of options of 'Wheel of Time TV series'. It's one series we're all talking about.



    The creators have their choices. I'm in no position to defend their choices since I don't vouch for decisions like this. I simply don't see it as impactful as you do when considering if the Dragon Reborn could be a woman or not.

    The way I interpret the TV series, Moraine has taken the 4 away to protect them. In the context of this adaptation, the viewers don't know who or what the Dragon is, yet they know the 4 characters are important. If it was a clear 'he/him', then we automatically know Egwene is not the important one. Yet the show clearly wants to illustrate some importance onto her character, and keep it ambiguous since she was so far the only one in the show who shows any skill in 'magical powers' at that point in the show. I would consider this the writers wanting to add in a minor red herring to keep the audience guessing. For the book readers who know the ins and out, this will seem like a travesty, but for a casual TV series watcher, it opens up people vouching for Egwene (or even Nynaeve) as a possible candidate and helps get people get invested into the character.

    Is it a good change? Can't say either way, since the series is completely new and I don't know any casual peeps talking about this show yet. But the way I see the change as a casual audience goer, this is clearly written with purpose to elevate interest in the female character. And whether this pays off or not is something we have to see in retrospect. It really depends on how loosely they want to adapt this and how many 'moments' they want to give Egwene over the course of the series to make her more of a fan favourite. The way I see this is similar to Arwen having more 'moments' in the LOTR beyond her very limited appearances in the book. It's to give more investment and interest in the character to a broader audience, and for that I don't really see it as a 'good or bad' thing. I simply see it as a change made in an adaptation which has its own purposes as a different medium than a novel.

    I'd almost say it's like how the Mandalorian spent the entire first season setting up the rules of being a Mandalorian, which went against a whole bunch of established Star Wars lore like Mandalorians being able to take off their helmets (Sabine Wren, the Mandalorians in Clone Wars and Rebels). So something like that was a huge setup that ended up being pretty much a 'red herring' once we find out that Mando is part of some fringe cult and that it's not how the world outside actually regards Mandalorians or what they know. It gets clarified back to the original canon. I can kinda see this happen the same way eventually, when the Dragon Reborn is finally unveiled everyone just moves past the 'She' part as if it never really mattered since the canon remains the same after we find out who it is anyways. But hey, I'm not a hardcore WoT fan so I can't speak out on how important this really is, all I'm presenting is a possible (clear to me) reason why they changed this, and why overall I don't think it will be world-changing in the end. Again, I'm neither defending or denouncing the changes, I'm simply pointing out why I think they exist and for what reasons, and why I don't think they're going to matter much in the end. If there's something more defined from the books about the Dragon having to be male for XYZ reasons, then it's obvious the TV series hasn't really adhered to the same rulesets since it's not establishing any hard rules that the Dragon must be a male (at least not from Moraine's POV).
    All souls in WoT have a specific sex/gender, so women are always reincarnated as women etc.

    The reason the Dragon being male is so important is that he's a historic figure in the world. Him and his companions pushed and sealed the Dark One in, and as revenge the Dark One poisoned the male half of the Source, making them all go mad and break the world.

    Hence why male channelers are feared and hated, but if the Dragon is suddenly a female the core plot of the entire saga, the Dragon Reborn dealing with learning to channel the male half knowing it'll turn him mad wouldn't exist. It also lowers tension, because peasants etc have less reason to be so afraid of the notion of the Dragon Reborn if it's a 50/50 chance the Dragon will be female and not suffer madness.

    They'll make Rand the Dragon for sure, it's a change that gives a character that is already a core story pusher little to no benefit while undermining a huge amount of worldbuilding.

  18. #598
    That landscape shot of the ruined skyscrapers that are basically mountains if you don't look close enough are the kind of enviromental easter eggs I'm all about, to get into some positivity. It's always weird to remember WoT is Post-Apocalyptic hyper-advanced Earth.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantique View Post


    All souls in WoT have a specific sex/gender, so women are always reincarnated as women etc.
    Mostly true. This was a major point that gets turned sideways for a later plot twist because the dark one does as they please and some MAJOR villains are brought back rule63'd for a major surprise as a female wielding Saidin turns more than a few through a loop.

  20. #600
    Finally watched it.


    It's a different take on the Robert Jordan one, but I don't think it captures the suspense, teror and excitement the book does. I think it would have been better if they just left things as is.


    But it was enjoyable for me.

    The whole Dragon may be female is just a nod to transgender people, I t has far less impact than I thought it would,

    I think the additions like Perrin's wife and Matt's sister were good calls, the problem with translating the book is that much of the suspense that makes it exciting is built up through description and internal dialogue - how do you do that in a film? or series to get the same effect.. so i think they took a shortcut and invented things about the others and showed things the books don't really mention to build the story.

    Jason Momoa would have made an excellent Lan
    Thom Merrilin was a perfect cast
    Rand was a perfect cast
    Moiraine was a great cast
    Nynaeve works well

    Jury is still out on matt, but I can think of a few others that amy have done it better

    Egwene and Perrin are not so fitting in my opinion
    Aram is supposed to be very very handsome (no offense to the actor - and yes, this is subjective, but the guy behind him at the back in the first scene we see him was better looking) )


    Knowing who Tam is from the book and reading the farm attack, I was rather disappointed that he couldn't fell one trolloc, while other in the village with far less expertise could.. that was a bad call..it diminishes the mystique of Tam which is an in-road to guessing Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

    it's a different show, staying closer to the book would have been better, it's still good, but overall disappointed, a great show would have improved on the book... imo it didn't.. i gave it an 8.5/10 because it did many things very well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantique View Post

    All souls in WoT have a specific sex/gender, so women are always reincarnated as women etc.

    .
    Also, another annoying change which makes the series more ordinary is shoving re-incarnation as a universal thing.. the way they mentioned it, ..everyone gets reincarnated, while in the book, that isn't true, only very important heroes get reincarnated.

    While it's not an essential to the plot specifically, as you can modify the Great Hunt's horn to just call heroes.. it dilutes the uniqueness of the story, and isn't the really hat Jordan wanted to show.


    I don't understand, if you thought a person's work was good enough to be made a film out of, why change so much?


    But then this is nothing new, read about Mary Poppins the movie.

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