[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Shadowferal]

Rolling Stone; ‘Wheel of Time’ Grinds Things Like ‘Plot’ and ‘Character’ to a Screeching Halt

Adaptation of Robert Jordan’s beloved fantasy book series offers lovely scenery and little else

Robert Jordan’s beloved, massive (more than a dozen books, several of which were completed after Jordan’s death) Wheel of Time series, with a reported $10 million budget per episode — more than the comparatively modest $6 million-per-episode cost of that first GoT season with Ned Stark, though less than the $15 million of that last batch of installments, with all their CGI ice zombie and dragon battles.

We’ll have to see next year how effectively House of the Dragon and Lord of the Rings have used their budgets, but the underwhelming Wheel of Time is a reminder that money alone does not make a fantasy world go around.

In one episode, Moiraine gets into a philosophical argument with an opponent about the nature and purpose of the Wheel of Time itself. Moiraine argues that the Wheel can’t want things any more than a river or the rain do, but that, “It’s people who want.” The people, though, are the big problem here. Most are bland and forgettable, and a few are outright annoying. Moiraine and Mat are the only two who stand out even a bit, and that’s owing more to the performances by Rosamund Pike and Barney Harris than anything either is given to do. (And Harris has reportedly been replaced for the second season, which is in production now.)
Almost everyone gets one note to play, maybe two — Rand, for instance, alternates between exasperatingly pouty and generically heroic — in ways that are perhaps meant to make them seem archetypal and instead render them fairly dull. One of Moiraine’s colleagues complains that it’s hard having a conversation with someone like her who won’t say anything, which sums up our overly cryptic heroine. That said, Pike’s sheer presence is often the most compelling thing in a given scene, and the show suffers even more during a stretch where Moiraine is sidelined by injury.

The thing that’s easy to forget about Game of Thrones is how relatively modest it was in the beginning compared to what it became. Battle scenes were often skipped over in their entirety due to budgetary limitations. It didn’t matter, though, because the heart of that show at its best was its interpersonal dynamics; put any two characters with even a bit of shared history in a room together, and something interesting was sure to happen. The huge fight scenes of the later seasons were fun in their own right, but they worked because the audience was already invested in, say, Jon Snow before he had to defend Castle Black against a horde of Wildlings, or in Jamie Lannister and Bronn before they came under literal fire from a dragon. There’s an action set piece in the climax of the first Wheel episode that’s bigger and mostly more visually impressive(*) than anything Thrones did in its early seasons, but it feels like hollow spectacle because we’ve barely gotten to know any of the people involved by that point. Battle and chase scenes in later episodes aren’t much better, because even though the show has spent more time on the characters, they remain flat ciphers whose fates feel irrelevant. The scenery in and around Prague is stunning, though, with certain vistas capable of evoking a similar feeling to some of the New Zealand travelogue sequences in Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings films. But when the scenery is one of a drama’s biggest selling points, that’s a problem. Whether a lot is happening in a given episode or scene, or we’re just watching people journey from place to place, little of it feels engaging because the characters are so threadbare.

Wheel of Time is arriving in this long gap between the end of Game of Thrones and the premiere of several other shows like it, which may bring in some fantasy fans starved for any morsel of magic and wonder. But the whole thing is empty, if expensive, calories.

[Coniferous]

I'm not going to pretend that Wheel of Time is a classic - it's pretty trashy but a guilty pleasure that I enjoy reading. After thinking for a while about the first few episodes, I finally think I pinpointed what I found so offputting:

In the original Eye of the World, the prologue is about Lews Therin, then the entire story is from Rand's POV until they get to Shadar Logosh. This makes sense and is effective storytelling - it's a consistent story thread centered around one character and is part of the simple wish fulfillment narrative that is the core of so many fantasy books aimed at adolescents. The first three episodes of this series had no consistent story thread, they were all over the place. I felt like the 4th episode was a bit less problematic on this front as the characters are scattered and it makes sense to have multiple povs/stories happening.

I think this is driven by the issue of wanting make the series more focused on the female characters. Some people claim this series of books is one of the best series for women because it had so many powerful female characters, I don't necessarily agree because I felt Jordan's treatment of women was problematic, and I expect some changes to the series (I wonder how they're going to treat Rand having 3 girlfriends in 2021, assuming that's going to get dropped, that was always dumb), but at some point you're just not telling the same story anymore. The most recent episode had Logain surprised at Nynaeve's power, when in the books Logain was far more powerful than Nynaeve (according to the WoT companion, he was 7 power levels above Nynaeve, 1 below Rand). So far, this isn't "The Wheel of Time", it's fan fiction where all the female characters are souped up, and Fadan Pain is also souped up for some reason, and so far Rand is a minor character instead of the main protagonist.

I was much less upset by the 4th episode with a week to process it and lower my expectations, and I'll keep watching it, but it's not good. At least the source material was coherent.

[Skizzit]

I love the whole "It's not exactly like the books therefore it's fanfic" argument. No, it's an adaptation.

Some people need to grow up. Acting like the TV show based on the book series they like not being exactly the way they envisioned it is a personal attack or something. If you don't like it, just don't watch it. It wont be the end of the world. I really disliked the first 3 episodes of Netflix's Locke & Key adaptations (a series I adore) so I just stopped it and watched something else.

[Coniferous]

I love the whole "It's not exactly like the books therefore it's fanfic" argument. No, it's an adaptation.

Some people need to grow up. Acting like the TV show based on the book series they like not being exactly the way they envisioned it is a personal attack or something. If you don't like it, just don't watch it. It wont be the end of the world. I really disliked the first 3 episodes of Netflix's Locke & Key adaptations (a series I adore) so I just stopped it and watched something else.

If you're referring to my post, it's clearly a sliding scale. I am ok with minor changes, but as I said above, these go beyond minor and "at some point they're not telling the same story anymore." For me, so far, this adaptation has crossed that boundary because the entire arc of the story has changed along with characters, and the themes have been very different.

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I agree. The show only uses the thematic systems, names of characters...which pretty much makes it fan-fiction. To wit; (from dragonmount)

The only problem I'm seeing here us the criticism of Nynaeve sneaking up on Lan, which was in the books.

Agreed on the problem with Lan - it's the issue with Tam Al'Thor too... he should have been able to take apart that Trolloc instantly given his backstory from the books, but he very nearly lost, where the untrained female characters held their own. Consistent trend of nerfing every male character and buffing the female ones. I don't have a problem with fixing some of the gender issues in the original series (like having powerful female characters paddle underling's asses all the time), but characters like Lan (one of the best in the entire series, closest thing to Aragorn in WoT), Tam, Rand, Perrin, even Thom are being turned into something very different from their book selves.

[Surfd]

I love the whole "It's not exactly like the books therefore it's fanfic" argument. No, it's an adaptation.

Some people need to grow up. Acting like the TV show based on the book series they like not being exactly the way they envisioned it is a personal attack or something. If you don't like it, just don't watch it. It wont be the end of the world. I really disliked the first 3 episodes of Netflix's Locke & Key adaptations (a series I adore) so I just stopped it and watched something else.

Is Romeo and Juliette still Romeo and Juliette if it is set in 1960s New York instead of 14th century Verona? Yes.
Is Romeo and Juliette still Romeo and Juliette if you turn it into Roger and John who come from different warring countries? Yes.
Is Romeo and Juliette still Romeo and Juliette if you remove the "lovers from hostile sides" bit and just have them be 2 rando's who fall in love and then die tragically? No, it just becomes a generic romantic tragedy.
Is Romeo and Juliette still Romeo and Juliette if you remove their tragic love story and give them both a happy ending? FUCKING HELL NO.

We are worried that this "adaptation" is going to end up closer to item 3, rather than being item 2 which is what they seem to be currently going for, and hoping they don't completely slide into item 4 by fucking with stuff too much.

It's one thing to adapt changes to "modernize" the work. It's another thing entirely to change core elements of the story to such a point that you might as well be working off a generic formula rather than the actual, specific IP that you started to adapt.

[Combatbutler]

And screw the people who take interest in the tv show and decide on start reading the books?

Just use spoiler tags, be considerate.

The series was finished almost a decade ago, at that point I don't consider spoiler tags necessary.

[hulkgor]

The series was finished almost a decade ago, at that point I don't consider spoiler tags necessary.

Another absurd contribution from your part. Not surprised.

[Skizzit]

Is Romeo and Juliette still Romeo and Juliette if it is set in 1960s New York instead of 14th century Verona? Yes.
Is Romeo and Juliette still Romeo and Juliette if you turn it into Roger and John who come from different warring countries? Yes.
Is Romeo and Juliette still Romeo and Juliette if you remove the "lovers from hostile sides" bit and just have them be 2 rando's who fall in love and then die tragically? No, it just becomes a generic romantic tragedy.
Is Romeo and Juliette still Romeo and Juliette if you remove their tragic love story and give them both a happy ending? FUCKING HELL NO.

We are worried that this "adaptation" is going to end up closer to item 3, rather than being item 2 which is what they seem to be currently going for, and hoping they don't completely slide into item 4 by fucking with stuff too much.

It's one thing to adapt changes to "modernize" the work. It's another thing entirely to change core elements of the story to such a point that you might as well be working off a generic formula rather than the actual, specific IP that you started to adapt.

Except 3 and 4 would still be adaptations. Maybe not very good ones, but still adaptations. The Thing, I am Legend, and Dark Tower are all adaptations that made pretty major changes to the source material and yet they are still all adaptations. Two are even considered pretty good to great. All I am saying is just because it is different, that doesn't automatically make it bad. It doesn't make it good either but we are what? 4 episodes in? Maybe people should calm with all the doomsaying. Or at least take it to a dedicated thread so others who want to actually talk about the series can do so. Maybe make a "Wheel of Time TV series from book readers" thread or something.

The series was finished almost a decade ago, at that point I don't consider spoiler tags necessary.

And is currently being adapted into a TV series that many, many people who never read the books are watching. Any book spoilers are also potential spoilers for the TV series.

Just use freaking spoiler tags. Don't be a dick.

[florclorbromiod]

I thought it was meh.

[Shadowferal]

Some people need to grow up. Acting like the TV show based on the book series they like not being exactly the way they envisioned it is a personal attack or something.

Calling it fan fiction isn't a personal attack.
Telling such critics to grow up however is.

If you can't take reading it...

[BloodyAngel12]

I would rather have it all to binge than waiting weekly for it but that's just me.

[Xath]

I love the whole "It's not exactly like the books therefore it's fanfic" argument. No, it's an adaptation.

Some people need to grow up. Acting like the TV show based on the book series they like not being exactly the way they envisioned it is a personal attack or something. If you don't like it, just don't watch it. It wont be the end of the world. I really disliked the first 3 episodes of Netflix's Locke & Key adaptations (a series I adore) so I just stopped it and watched something else.

It is fanfic. Making cuts based on time is fine and acceptable. What not acceptable is seismic world shfiting changes. Removing gendered souls. Making it so there are past dragons who are woman. Massive shifts in the power scale. Log was second only to Rand in Power and was 7 steps above Nynaeve. Men on their own could get individually far stronger but women could use linking. There are so many dumb massive changes that either are actively eroding the story base or take away from character characterization and motivation.

Also there is a non spoiler thread I'm not going to put spoiler tags on every post I make especially since over half of what would have tags on it will not happen. If you cared about the series it's been done for nearly a decade at this point get the audio books and listen to it at work or read it at home but this awful excuse for a show is nowhere near the series it is supposedly based on.

[Skizzit]

Also there is a non spoiler thread I'm not going to put spoiler tags on every post I make especially since over half of what would have tags on it will not happen. If you cared about the series it's been done for nearly a decade at this point get the audio books and listen to it at work or read it at home but this awful excuse for a show is nowhere near the series it is supposedly based on.

From the forum guildlines thread:

9. Spoilers If you have information from say a book (Or any other source) a movie or TV show is being adapted from you need to use spoiler tags. Same thing if you have found reliable leaks online. Do not ruin other's excitement when we have a system in place to deal with this. Otherwise spoiler tags are not required, regardless of how a topic is titled. You should be able to discuss the most recent events that have aired or been released without needing to use spoiler tags. If you want to discuss spoilers, use the tags.

Talking about what happened in the latest episode, no tags needed. Talking about stuff from the book that has not happened yet, use spoiler tags. Or just don't post I guess. Your choice.

[Xath]

From the forum guildlines thread:


Talking about what happened in the latest episode, no tags needed. Talking about stuff from the book that has not happened yet, use spoiler tags. Or just don't post I guess. Your choice.

No, we have been talking about stuff from the books throughout the thread there is a non spoiler thread if you want it. There is no reason to change the thread after 30 plus pages this is like complaining about people talking about Harry Potter books in a movie thread.

[Shadowferal]

It is fanfic. Making cuts based on time is fine and acceptable. What not acceptable is seismic world shfiting changes.

The funny thing is that the critics ripping into the show aren't doing it because of changes made from the books, it's everything to do with making a good show to begin with; script, characterization, acting...a big budget show that invites comparison to the smaller budgeted GoT...and coming up unfavorably as GoT looked very much worth the production value it gave. But the maybe those that like the show prefer the comparison to Shannara.

[Combatbutler]

Another absurd contribution from your part. Not surprised.

Sorry I don't give a damn if someone just decided to get interested in something, despite the fact it is pretty much ancient history, if you don't want spoilers, go into the spoiler free thread and stay clear of this one.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...non-spoilers**

And is currently being adapted into a TV series that many, many people who never read the books are watching. Any book spoilers are also potential spoilers for the TV series.

Just use freaking spoiler tags. Don't be a dick.

The stuff is ancient, it is pretty much almost the same as someone yelling in this day and age, that snape killed dumbledore. If it were a new franchise you would have a point, I draw the line at two years max.

[Coniferous]

The funny thing is that the critics ripping into the show aren't doing it because of changes made from the books, it's everything to do with making a good show to begin with; script, characterization, acting...a big budget show that invites comparison to the smaller budgeted GoT...and coming up unfavorably as GoT looked very much worth the production value it gave. But the maybe those that like the show prefer the comparison to Shannara.

I agree with your overall point, but also I never expected WoT to look as good as GoT because of the sheer amount of CGI involved to represent the magic. Yes, GoT had a lot, particularly towards the end, but WoT has to have tons, which is probably why it looks so cheap.

[Risale]

I agree with your overall point, but also I never expected WoT to look as good as GoT because of the sheer amount of CGI involved to represent the magic. Yes, GoT had a lot, particularly towards the end, but WoT has to have tons, which is probably why it looks so cheap.

Season 1 Foundation cost $45.000.000 for 10 episodes and this is a SciFi show with very good CGI.
Season 1 WoT cost $80.000.000 for 8 episodes with shitty CGI.

Both shows have adapted the original lore to such an extent that they deviate so much from the original that you'd be better of showing a warning at the start of each episode saying that "Watch you are about to watch has nothing to do with the books created by Isaac Asimov/Robert Jordan".

Some changes to make it possible for TV/Movie is expected but stick to the story as written as much as possible and both these shows failed at that.

[Serpha]

I can't help but cry in advance for The Lord of the Rings series, seeing what shitty adaptations they are making so far, that goes for not just Amazon.

[Skizzit]

Sorry I don't give a damn if someone just decided to get interested in something, despite the fact it is pretty much ancient history, if you don't want spoilers, go into the spoiler free thread and stay clear of this one.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...non-spoilers**



The stuff is ancient, it is pretty much almost the same as someone yelling in this day and age, that snape killed dumbledore. If it were a new franchise you would have a point, I draw the line at two years max.

The TV series just started. What part of that are people not getting? This thread isn't about the books, it is about the series. Someone clicks on this thread to talk about this brand new fantasy series on Amazon and get bombarded with discussions of all kinds of aspects and plot details from the books that, whether they do end up happening in the series or not, have not happened in the Amazon series. The title of this thread is [TV] The Wheel of Time. No mention of books or any indication that there will be loads of untagged spoilers.

And no, it isn't like someone saying snape killed dumbledore today. It would be like someone yelling that to people waiting in line to see the Half Blood Prince movie in 2009 and then telling them to stop complaining since the book came out 4 years before. People are so god damn selfish these days. Nope, I cannot be bothered to type [ /spoiler], who cares if some other people may be spoiled. Doesn't effect me so who cares. Bunch of freaking children.