1. #841
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    There you go. The prophecies don't mention it. You're adding extra context into it yourself, because of what you know from reading the series.
    Well duh. That is the entire point of this discussion. How drastically they changed the theme of stuff from the books. It isn't about the average joe caring about that at all. Why is it that you continually combine two different arguments? We are talking about the quality of adaptation and not what an average joe who has never read the books would know or not.
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  2. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The TV series doesn't aim to be as good as the novels.
    I mean, nothing says it HAS to be good. But if it WANTS to be good, what they're doing right now - at least in the opinion of me and others of a like mind - is not the way to go. That's not to say we are the definitive authority - we're not (and neither is anyone else). No show will ever please 100% of people. But they need to understand WHY we're unhappy with the changes they're making, and it's not simply "it's not like it is in the books" - that implies that there's only two options, 1. follow the books exactly 2. it sucks. That's not true. All I'm saying is 3. what you're doing there isn't working for me. The fact that it's also different from the books is not unrelated, but also not the deciding factor - plenty of other changes from the book I have zero problems with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The best ones aren't the ones that end up copying everything 1:1. That's not how this works.
    Thank you for explaining to me something I've literally already said myself, down to the "1:1". Are you being patronizing on purpose, or did you just miss it?

  3. #843
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    In the books this becomes very clear.
    Yeah, it does.

    But this is not the books.

    This is an adaptation.

    In case you are unclear of what that means I'll give you some definitions:

    https://introtofictionf18.web.unc.ed...ng-adaptation/

    An adaptation is the recreation of a piece of art, literature, or film by using the same concepts but changing certain aspects such as the setting or the characters
    The process of recreating and presenting an existing work in a way which draws a new meaning.
    An adaptation is new story, or a retelling of an old story in a new media form, that is based on an already existing work. Adaptations include intertextuality from the previous work, or the use of elements from the original work in the new work or work that retells the old story. Adaptations are used to creatively expand from the original idea in a new way.
    If you were expecting them to follow the books exactly... you set yourself up to be disappointed. It was always going to have differences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Well duh. That is the entire point of this discussion. How drastically they changed the theme of stuff from the books. It isn't about the average joe caring about that at all. Why is it that you continually combine two different arguments? We are talking about the quality of adaptation and not what an average joe who has never read the books would know or not.
    I'm not just talking about the audience. I'm talking about the people in the world and why they would have cause to fear the Dragon Reborn, regardless of gender.

  4. #844
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    I'm not just talking about the audience. I'm talking about the people in the world and why they would have cause to fear the Dragon Reborn, regardless of gender.
    Right. Which when it was shown the people of the world wouldn't you turned to BS about the average joe who doesn't know anything about the book series. The entire reason why people are afraid of the Dragon Reborn is because of the Saidin being tainted. That is why he broke the world the first time and why they fear the world breaking a second time. If you remove the taint you remove that fear. It changes everything that would have changed how the world acts over 3,000 years of living in fear of the Dragon coming back and using the tainted male half of the one power.

    Of course they have reason to fear anyone using the one power to conquer the world. The fears are no where near equal though. No one has said that they have nothing to fear from a female Dragon. Just that it changes the entire theme and premise of the books. And if the show doesn't actually make the Dragon female it is all for no real reason at all. That fear of women using the one power exists. It is the entire reason why the Whitecloaks exist and why they have the White Tower has the 3 oaths to begin with.

    You just keep highlighting how drastic of a change it is and why that change is ultimately pointless. It is a bastardization of the story that doesn't fit an adaptation.
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  5. #845
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Thing is, if you haven't read the books...and most of the audience hasn't...you wouldn't know anything about the prophecy. So it can still serve to allow the people that are coming in fresh to believe that any one of those kids could be TDR.
    Which again, is pointless virtue signaling. If they have no intention of actually changing who TDR actually is, paying lip service to the audience to make them believe it could be a woman, just because they can say "it can be a woman too, see we're inclusive!" is stupid and doesn't do anything for the narrative and only serves to undermine the lore of the world.

    TDR being a male is central to the lore of the world, because of male channeler madness and how powerful they become, along with how unstable and therefore dangerous they are. It's why the White Tower is women only, it's almost exclusively why the Red Ajah exists, it's central to the prophecies and why certain cultures treat men the way they do. Changing it so a woman can be TDR so they can...what? I don't even know WHY, besides try and be inclusive with women, in a story that is already incredibly women empowered and inclusive. It changes all of that.

    It's stupid, pointless changes for the sake of change and does nothing to actually improve the plot or make it easier to adapt to TV. The only thing it serves to do, as far as it's impact on the Wheel of Time story, is undermine itself. Because it builds characters up who aren't really TDR so disappoints some of the TV only fans when that happens, and disappoints the fans of the books from the beginning for changing stuff that shouldn't be changed.

    That said, they haven't done anything in the show yet that pushes me away. As long as they stick to the actual core narrative from the books I think it will be fine. But the sooner they focus on who the actual TDR is, the better rather than try and build hype on the 5.

  6. #846
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I mean, nothing says it HAS to be good. But if it WANTS to be good, what they're doing right now - at least in the opinion of me and others of a like mind - is not the way to go. That's not to say we are the definitive authority - we're not (and neither is anyone else). No show will ever please 100% of people. But they need to understand WHY we're unhappy with the changes they're making, and it's not simply "it's not like it is in the books" - that implies that there's only two options, 1. follow the books exactly 2. it sucks. That's not true. All I'm saying is 3. what you're doing there isn't working for me. The fact that it's also different from the books is not unrelated, but also not the deciding factor - plenty of other changes from the book I have zero problems with.
    Perhaps it's a perspective issue, but let's play devil's advocate for a moment.

    I get that you don't think the male female Dragon Reborn is a good thing to have, since the books have it tied very closely to the mythology of the world and the prophecies which the people have organized themselves around in reaction to the Breaking of the World. Now, in your own opinion, is there any way this adaptation could be seen as being good to open up to female Dragon Reborn that has a universe that reacts to that premise that would make sense to you? Because the way I am reading your argument, it's basically that the change doesn't make sense because of the books, so I want to take the books out of the equation for a sec and consider if there's any possibility for this new world to exist cohesively, with a new structuring and reasoning for factions to continue to exist the same way, but under a different premise that still makes fundamental sense.

    Because if your argument is no, it can't be good at all because it's too fundamentally changed, then the crux of your argument still is rooted in '#nochange'. It's not an actual criticism of the TV universe lacking cohesion. And I'm arguing this point specifically not because I agree with the TV show universe, but because as a casual watcher I do not see the same conflicts that the book readers here are explaining, because the TV series has literally not established those rules. Hell, we don't even know the power of the Whitecloaks or how they were able to capture Aes Sedai without incurring massive casualties, since we're now seeing how powerful the Aes Sedai can be. How did that whitecloak dude track down and capture the Aes Sedai? We haven't seen, we don't know. It's completely ambiguous in the TV universe. I'm sure the book could have explanations and elaborations, but it doesn't pertain to the TV universe at all. What we see is what we get in the TV series, so if it's not outright stated, it doesn't exist. Rules that aren't outright stated simply do not apply.

    Thank you for explaining to me something I've literally already said myself, down to the "1:1". Are you being patronizing on purpose, or did you just miss it?
    Take it as you will. I didn't patronize you, I simply said adaptations are not better for being closer to the original story and that's not how we gauge things. Whether you know it or not, you're not really conveying that properly in your tone. I'm reading the things you're saying, but they're not coming across as genuine to me considering you're still using the book as the jumping point for all of your criticisms where the TV series has not even started to establish any of those rules, and you're basically letting that affect your impression of the TV series as a whole.

    Like Elves added to Helms Deep that made the situation seem less hopeless for the Humans? Depending on who we talk to, this change can be seen as good because it raises the stakes in favour of an epic battle, but also be seen as bad because it undermined the utter hopeless odds that Rohan faced in the situation without the aid of anyone, especially not those of other races. The context of good and bad are not universal here, and right now I don't think the WoT series has progressed far enough where we can actually see good or bad ramifications for the changes in the lore opening up to the Dragon Reborn being female.

    I will say though that as a casual audience member, the 4th episode ending was indeed more dramatic with having more material that supports the change of the 'prophecy'. It keeps the audience guessing at who the Dragon could be, at least those who are not book readers, and I think it worked really well to maintain that hook as a week-to-week cliffhanger. Whether it will fuck up the rest of the lore down the line is yet to be seen.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-28 at 11:37 PM.

  7. #847
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Now, in your own opinion, is there any way this adaptation could be seen as being good to open up to female Dragon Reborn that has a universe that reacts to that premise that would make sense to you?
    I don't know. I'm a critic, not a writer. It's neither my job nor my competency to come up with the good ideas - I simply judge ideas that are presented to me. Could they have done it in a smart way that doesn't obviate the established mythology? Maybe? I can't say for sure. I just know the way they DID do it doesn't work for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because the way I am reading your argument, it's basically that the change doesn't make sense because of the books
    That's not entirely accurate. The fact that it differs from the books isn't JUST incidental, but it's also not the reason I don't like the change - I don't like it because it leads to so many other changes that the overall plot suffers. My problem is with the plot being worse now, not with accuracy in respect to the books. The plot is ALSO different from the books, but that's not why I think it's bad - the loss of the gendered motive that underlies so many structures in the WoT world is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I simply said adaptations are not better for being closer to the original story
    I didn't say this, either. I said that the more you DEPART from the source material, the higher the chance you'll have something bad. That doesn't simply work in the inverse, because - as I've repeatedly said - a 1:1 adaptation doesn't do the medium justice and isn't desirable either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    you're still using the book as the jumping point for all of your criticisms where the TV series has not even started to establish any of those rules, and you're basically letting that affect your impression of the TV series as a whole.
    I can only judge the series by what is available. What I've seen so far doesn't work for me. Maybe they'll change things up 5 episodes down the line or whatever, I have no way of knowing. But my time is limited. I can't just watch everything I want to watch, I have to make choices. And based on what I've seen so far, I doubt I'll watch more of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I mean, did you criticize GoT or LOTR having changed major plot elements?
    YES. Extensively.

  8. #848
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post

    Of course they have reason to fear anyone using the one power to conquer the world. The fears are no where near equal though. No one has said that they have nothing to fear from a female Dragon. Just that it changes the entire theme and premise of the books. And if the show doesn't actually make the Dragon female it is all for no real reason at all. That fear of women using the one power exists. It is the entire reason why the Whitecloaks exist and why they have the White Tower has the 3 oaths to begin with.
    Fear of the end of the world is fear of the end of the world. When you're afraid of the your entire world ending...the gender of the person ending it is unimportant.

  9. #849
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I understand that perfectly. What I'm saying is, if you change everything from a foundational level, you risk it being bad. That's what we saw in GoT - as soon as the books dropped away, what the writers came up with on their own was terrible.
    Except that's not really true. The changed loads of things from the start, both changing and removing whole characters and plot lines. Even the "bad" seasons were not bad because of the actual story but because they were told terribly. The biggest issues (at least in my opinion) were how rushed and poorly structured everything was. If they had put the same time and effort into the last two/three seasons as they did the first few I really don't think people would have hated it as much as they did.

    Maybe this WoT adaptation will end up being awful. But if so, it won't be simply because it is different than the books.

  10. #850
    For myself I am happy with the series so far. I haven't seen that much that would have me stop watching it out of hate or spite. I have come to the realization that this is the one and only chance we will get to see a live action adaptation of the WoT. Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones will get multiple chances to screw up and still get another shot. So it's this or nothing when it comes to WoT.

    That doesn't mean I will not criticize the changes or things I think could be done better or completely differently. And if it goes completely off the rails into Shannara/Sword of Truth territory I will be right there in condemning the writer/director. But we aren't at that point yet.

    And I can already here the "better off with no adaptation than a flawed/disrespectful one"... Possibly, but this series does not change the books. And if it leads to more people reading the source material, than all the better. I am curious to see where this series goes, because I will most likely not get another opportunity to see it done again in my life time.

  11. #851
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    YES. Extensively.
    Did it get in the way of your enjoyment of the films overall? Genuinely curious, because I do not know what extent of criticism you had, and whether or not it would be comparable to the criticisms you have of WoT, which I feel is getting in the way of your enjoyment of the show.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Which again, is pointless virtue signaling. If they have no intention of actually changing who TDR actually is, paying lip service to the audience to make them believe it could be a woman, just because they can say "it can be a woman too, see we're inclusive!" is stupid and doesn't do anything for the narrative and only serves to undermine the lore of the world.
    It undermines the book lore, but does nothing for the TV lore so far since the prophecy hasn't even been properly established. We just know inklings of what it is about, from various expositions.

    If the book were a weekly series like a Comic/Manga, it would be written very differently than if it were as a novel. The purpose of this change does serve the narrative of the TV series, because it works as a hook to keep people guessing on who the Dragon may be. And 'no intention of changing' is not the point, since we all know who the Dragon is, and let's face it, would it ever be acceptable to anyone to make such a drastic change? That's He-Man Revelations level of bait and switch.

  12. #852
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Did it get in the way of your enjoyment of the films overall?
    I personally did not like the LotR films, no. As for GoT it's a complex issue because it's such an extensive work. Certainly some parts I agreed more with than others, and some changes I liked while others I did not. No question the last season is an absolute train wreck, but everyone knows that. For the first few, I think they did an overall good job of adapting things. In the middle it's a bit of a letdown in places, but at least acceptable. A little bit of an exculpating factor is the IMMENSELY obsessive attention to detail that the books have, which no one could (or should) translate to the screen, so there's more room to maneuver. I'd say GoT seasons 1-4 are good adaptations, 5-6 are adequate, 7 is questionable, and 8 is a complete failure, if I had to put a rough rating on things. But at the very least they did a good job representing what's key about the books pretty much from the start, which is why I kept watching.

  13. #853
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Fear of the end of the world is fear of the end of the world. When you're afraid of the your entire world ending...the gender of the person ending it is unimportant.
    But any one of the Aes Sadi over the about 3,000 years could have been the dragon. Wouldn't that fear grow stale when none of them went mad and broke the world? It isn't just that the Dragon would change things that people feared but that he would break the world again. A literal event that happened in the past because of the male half of the one power.

    It wasn't just prophecy that happened the last time. But a real event that people have feared would happen again because of the prophecies surrounding the Dragon. That completely changes when you no longer have to fear the one power automatically causing the person to go insane. Any sister, or "not yet found by the white tower" user could channel the one power with out going mad.

    The gender is entirely important when the fear of the world breaking again is distinctly tied to the gender of the person. You keep missing that fact which is why you'll likely never understand, or agree to, how profoundly the lore is changed. Actually you will acknowledge it as you've stated in the past you'll only accept a problem with the changes when they actually make the Dragon female. Which is silly. You see the problems. You acknowledge it exists but cover your eyes until they cross the arbitrary line you've drawn.
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  14. #854
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But any one of the Aes Sadi over the about 3,000 years could have been the dragon. Wouldn't that fear grow stale when none of them went mad and broke the world? It isn't just that the Dragon would change things that people feared but that he would break the world again. A literal event that happened in the past because of the male half of the one power.

    It wasn't just prophecy that happened the last time. But a real event that people have feared would happen again because of the prophecies surrounding the Dragon.
    The TV series hasn't established anything beyond simple exposition of the prophecy that a Dragon would be reborn. Everything else has been left ambiguous or unexplained.

    The Aes Sedai of the TV series is not operating in the same way as the book. Wouldn't people just fear the Dragon Reborn could be Aes Sedai? Well people already do fear Aes Sedai and aren't welcoming them in open arms already, as established by the way people are hesitant of Moraine and how the Whitecloaks are literally established as 'Witch-hunters'. We haven't been explicitly given any information on when the Dragon would be reborn, and only go off on what Moraine has exposited; mainly that she thinks it's one of the 4 main characters, which the barmaid then exposited to 5 (and we don't know exactly which 5th she was referring to). That's about the extent of it as far as the TV series goes.

    Everything else you're bringing to the table doesn't exist in the TV universe until we see it explained. It doesn't magically get backstory from the books just because you happened to read them.

  15. #855
    I propose to create an "adaptation" of the Bible where no one knows if the Son of God is going to be born a man or a woman. It's God so gender shouldn't matter and I don't think that simple change of prophecy would have any effect on Jewish culture, right?

  16. #856
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The Aes Sedai of the TV series is not operating in the same way as the book.
    Well yeah. Which means it is a poor adaptation and just a "Generic fantasy show" using the same nouns as Wheel of Time. That has been the point of this entire discussion. That the changes they are making are diverging in major ways from the story of the books that it essentially just the books in name only.

    The White Cloaks are pretty much filling the same roll as in the books so far. The trivia when paused has hinted at stuff being changed in greater ways then just shown during the episodes. Which is how we know it was the entire Karaethon Cycle that changed and not just what ever prophecy Moirane heard. Her thinking that the two women could be dragons is a big change similar to the change in "origin" story of Matt and Perrin. Because it changes the reasons for why they were included it just isn't as core of a change as the gendered souls.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-11-29 at 12:53 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  17. #857
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Did it get in the way of your enjoyment of the films overall? Genuinely curious, because I do not know what extent of criticism you had, and whether or not it would be comparable to the criticisms you have of WoT, which I feel is getting in the way of your enjoyment of the show.

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    It undermines the book lore, but does nothing for the TV lore so far since the prophecy hasn't even been properly established. We just know inklings of what it is about, from various expositions.

    If the book were a weekly series like a Comic/Manga, it would be written very differently than if it were as a novel. The purpose of this change does serve the narrative of the TV series, because it works as a hook to keep people guessing on who the Dragon may be. And 'no intention of changing' is not the point, since we all know who the Dragon is, and let's face it, would it ever be acceptable to anyone to make such a drastic change? That's He-Man Revelations level of bait and switch.
    Guessing who the Dragon is going to be is an unnecessary story element given that we have only 4 episodes left. They are obviously not going to do a book a season, so get it out of the way and work on things that matter. As I have said previously in this thread, the whole reason they are scared of the Dragon being reborn is that male channelers go mad. Take away the threat of that and you still wasted time in episodes dealing with an unimportant plot device.

  18. #858
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    I propose to create an "adaptation" of the Bible where no one knows if the Son of God is going to be born a man or a woman. It's God so gender shouldn't matter and I don't think that simple change of prophecy would have any effect on Jewish culture, right?
    I mean, if you really think about...Christianity is already an "adaptation". Made some fundamental changes to the "Source Material".

    But let's not get into religion..forbidden topic and all that.
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-11-29 at 01:12 AM.

  19. #859
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    I propose to create an "adaptation" of the Bible where no one knows if the Son of God is going to be born a man or a woman. It's God so gender shouldn't matter and I don't think that simple change of prophecy would have any effect on Jewish culture, right?
    Can't be any worse than the Book of Mormon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    Guessing who the Dragon is going to be is an unnecessary story element given that we have only 4 episodes left. They are obviously not going to do a book a season, so get it out of the way and work on things that matter. As I have said previously in this thread, the whole reason they are scared of the Dragon being reborn is that male channelers go mad. Take away the threat of that and you still wasted time in episodes dealing with an unimportant plot device.
    That fear still exists with every male channeller anyone comes across. The fear of the Dragon beyond that doesn't even formally exist in the series, as Moraine just wants to get to them before the Dark One does, and not of fear of insanity or whatnot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Well yeah. Which means it is a poor adaptation and just a "Generic fantasy show" using the same nouns as Wheel of Time. That has been the point of this entire discussion. That the changes they are making are diverging in major ways from the story of the books that it essentially just the books in name only.
    Which is on par with LOTR and GOT.....

    These all changed and adapted the stories to however they see fit, and people can call LoTR a poor adaptation as much as they want, that's also in this thread discussion. Poor adaptation is subjective.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-29 at 01:25 AM.

  20. #860
    Here's how I would end each of the seasons.

    Season 1: ends at eye of the world. Rand realizes he's the dragon
    Season 2: Ends with the big battle where everyone realizes Rand is the dragon
    Season 3: Stone of Tyr
    Season 4: Aiel season, culminating with "death" of Moiraine
    Season 5: Bowl of the Winds? I don't know, the middle of the series is so muddled. Also could be the fight against Rahvin and Sammael.
    Season 6: Cleansing of saidin
    Season 7: Rand kidnapped by Red Ajah, goes mad, then redeems himself
    Season 8: Last battle


    I did this in about 2 minutes from memory, any big things I'm missing?

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