"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."
A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore
It's called an audiobook. I mean, I don't know how else to answer that.
To me its like a hardcore comic fan criticizing MCU changes to the comics and thinking sticking closer to the comics would make it better. But really, whether they stick with the origins or not, movies and TV series aren't made to tell those stories exactly as they existed on the original source. They're made to be entertainment in the format they exist in. 'Par on course' should be expected because that is the nature of the medium we're discussing. This isn't a graphic novel or an audiobook. It's a TV miniseries.
I see this little different than hardcore comic fans thinking it would be better if MCU stuck more closely to the comics, and then calling the movies poor adaptations and bringing up how the changes on the MCU alter the lore established by the comics. To me, 'Par on course' means MCU can be a poor adaptation of the comics, but an entertaining series of movies with its own established mythology within its collective universe. When fans start using comic origins to argue stuff in the MCU is where I start pointing flaws in those arguments. Adaptations aren't beholden to the same rules as the source.
Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-29 at 02:04 AM.
Then, as an adaptation they have done a poor job showing why people should fear the Dragon, who he was, and what it actually means when they say he broke the world or how powerful he was. You say there is fear of male channelers everywhere, but if they say the Dragon is a female, then the male channeler story thread becomes extraneous and a waste of time when you only have 8 episodes to tell your story. If nothing changes and the Dragon is who it is in the books, then you still wasted time in the 8 episodes trying to seed doubt where it didn’t need to be. And the thing is, even in the books no one that left Emonds Field was unimportant or a minor character. Hell, if Jordon had cut most of the Aes Sedai intrigue and stuff about Egwene and Nynaeve he probably could have shortened the series by 4 books at least.
Audiobooks are not adaptations but just the written word spoken out loud. You may be thinking of Audio Dramas which are more like a radio show/play. Why is it that we have to settle for sub par visual adaptations of written word? Changing core story elements of the books doesn't make sense if your intent is just to create a visual version. It makes even less sense if you don't intend to change who the key character is.
It isn't required to change core things about source material just because it is a visual medium.
"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."
The TV lore should not be different from the book lore. That's the point.
The lore should be the same, details and some story beats that don't change the overall narrative are expected to be changed. But the core lore of the universe should not.
I disagree. It doesn't need that hook, for one. Also, there are plenty of other hooks they could use that feed directly into the actual of the book characters narratives.If the book were a weekly series like a Comic/Manga, it would be written very differently than if it were as a novel. The purpose of this change does serve the narrative of the TV series, because it works as a hook to keep people guessing on who the Dragon may be.
Rand and his sword training to get the heron marked sword, and his heritage marking his as Aiel, Mat and his fascination with Manetheren history, Nynaeave and her penchant for healing and inability to surrender to Saidar, Egwene and the White Tower (which I'm sure is coming), Perrin and his golden eyes, Mathias and his connection to the wolves.
Agreed, but my point is the changes they've made to get this "hook" as you call it are completely unnecessary and IMO don't do anything but take away from the core lore of the books, which undermines a LOT of the reasons the world is the way it is.And 'no intention of changing' is not the point, since we all know who the Dragon is, and let's face it, would it ever be acceptable to anyone to make such a drastic change? That's He-Man Revelations level of bait and switch.
It hasn't destroyed the story, but I'm skeptical, and wouldn't be all that surprised if they did. So far, I'm still enjoying it and will continue watching it for as long as I do.
I agree here.
These changes alter and diminish the story.
The power of the story and its charm.
While the series is a good fantasy series. It’s nothing particularaly special.
Much of the unique charm is eroded by their changes.
Egwene having sex with Rand while minor is an example. The fact they didn’t actually makes it stand out more than just throwing it in there because every series has two main leads fucking.
Off course there are bigger offensives.
My flatmate pointed out that the opening scene suggested the one power had no gender halves. The red ajah AES Sedai phrased it in a way that implies that.
The series needed to also be 23 episodes long and capture more of the charm
The book brings.
Like the women’s circle in the village in the opening chapters and their relationship and views of the village council.
Rand and Tam’s first journey to the village where the Mryddraal is ghosting them has such a suspense mystery air to it that really sets up things.
The initial explanation of the ine power Moiraine reveals. Her air of mystery when she first arrives. All of this and more is charm
Just eroded.
Illustrating when it can be important is not whining. Nor is stating that you prefer it to match the original medium.
Funny thing is you didn’t get that I was agreeing with you that it was important mostly plot wise (not preference wise) except. In the occasions when it is.
These film versions must ask the question if they are trying to bring the book to life in the visual medium or just merely want to cash in on their fame.
Books are a fair bit more detailed than video games, the narratives and descriptions are important.
However some changes are good, some are okay and may have good reasons to make but don’t really impact the story.
Some are just inexcusable. They just change the aithor’s main story without consideration.
I understand taking liberties but what I watched on Prime doesnt feel right nor is it based on the books. The TV series is totally off-putting. No distinct fighting style for blademasters. Dont let me get started on the warders.
It makes sense when the audience the series is intended for is much more broader than people who have already read the books and are expected it regurgitated in another medium. That's effectively the difference here, and why Amazon put money into making this series when we all pretty much know it only exists because they want their own 'Game of Thrones', and not because they have any active interest in preserving the story of the books.
And in the eyes of whoever is in charge of the series, that Rafe guy or whatever execs we don't know of, they obviously have their own agendas to present a more 'modern' version that has more appeal to the casual non-book reader. Again, not my preference for what actually happened, but this is literally what we got and the reasons for it. This isn't a passionate fan's dedicated vision, like PJ's LOTR or Villeneuve's Dune that we're talking about, unfortunately.
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So what is the better option? Keep it all male only, and have the female characters be unimportant-yet-powerful tag-alongs for the sake of it? The books have already been criticized for poor portrayals of females, and we're in a time when there is a greater demand for stronger female representation in entertainment mediums (whether coming from fans or from producers, for whatever reasons they have). While I'd agree that preserving the books would be a sensible thing to do, I mean... I just see a conflict of interest for a 8-episode series that has female characters that you have no reason to root for as opposed to how it's currently playing out where there's strong female characters and non-book readers have reasons to be interested in them, even if it's a 'bait and switch'. It serves the purpose of the narrative that this mini series aims to tell, even if it's absolutely twisting the original narrative.
I'd just as much compare this to the introduction of a romantic subplot in the Hobbit where it was absolutely unnecessary. Does it deserve to be there? No. But it's not like we don't know why it's been added. We know. It sucks that it was added, but we know why it's there.
Again, I'm not the one making the creative decisions, so I can't speak out on their choices. We simply know why they chose to do it, because that's pretty much how things are. I don't know if 'Girl Power' makes it easier to greenlight shows on liberal media TV platforms or what, but that's pretty much how it is with any series. I'm just gonna say I don't think anyone should be surprised at the changes, and that the changes themselves aren't really affecting the storyline of the TV series since there's been no establishment that people are generally afraid of the Dragon Reborn specifically because he is a male channeller prone to madness. This simply has not been established in the TV series, so I still consider this baggage from the books that doesn't really concern the TV series at all.If nothing changes and the Dragon is who it is in the books, then you still wasted time in the 8 episodes trying to seed doubt where it didn’t need to be. And the thing is, even in the books no one that left Emonds Field was unimportant or a minor character. Hell, if Jordon had cut most of the Aes Sedai intrigue and stuff about Egwene and Nynaeve he probably could have shortened the series by 4 books at least.
Much like someone arguing Comic book origins of a superhero and making points of how MCU versions of Spiderman never talked about Power and Responsibility or really make mention of Uncle Ben. Like, we don't really need that in order to enjoy the new Spiderman as Spiderman. WHether someone thinks having it would make the story/character/world more coherent and immersive is really up to the individual, and it's not some flaw of the MCU for omitting Uncle Ben.
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The TV show isn't the book, that's also the point.
What TV series has 1:1 exact same lore as its book counterparts? Is it sensible to bring up Game of Thrones book lore into GoT TV series discussions? If it's to make comparisons and criticisms of how one could be better, then sure. But if it's to criticize that the TV series has screwed up because it didn't stick to the book lore, then that's a different argument, and one that isn't really substantial since we're obviously talking about a TV adaptation that has taken creative liberties.
Again, why should the TV series be regarded as a translation of the book? The lore being the same means it's a translation, and that's not what this is.
The lore of LOTR movies isn't even the books, when you consider how many changes were made to characters (Tom Bombadil), plot lines (scouring of the Shire) and even the entire world. Yet when making sense of things within the narrative of the movies, there's no real point in reaching into the books and considering the lore as being one and the same. They aren't the same. They never will be. And this will be relevant in the near future, when the Amazon LOTR series arrives.
Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-29 at 05:12 AM.
And with this drivel it's safe to disregard any further text walls from you. In no way whatsoever are the women unimportant in wheel of time. Moiraine is huge early in the series and gradually gives way to others Egwene and Nynaeve are massively important not to even talk about Lanfear Birgette Min or Aviendah or Tuon or even Elayne. Not to mention all the black ajah characters or Siuan or how Morgase's transformation throughout the series is increasingly brutal and causes other things to happen. Hell of the Aiel in general massive chunk of the most important characters are women. This isn't LoTR with like 3 women who matter in the world. The duality of the one power is also reflected in the cast of characters. If anything making the dragon a woman as well would massively overbalance it.
The changes Rafe and co have made haven't strengthened the characters who are woman they have significantly undermined pre existing strengths and characterization.
Last edited by Xath; 2021-11-29 at 05:25 AM.
okay.
Do non-book readers understand this gender dynamic from the first 3 episodes? Has it been illustrated in this way? No, it hasn't.
This is clearly not a purist adaptation, so why are people still 'wishful' that it should be? It will never be the book, at least not this particular Amazon adaptation.
Realistically speaking, I have no interest in Egwene's character in the TV series even with her 'elevated status'.
I agree.The changes Rafe and co have made haven't strengthened the characters who are woman they have significantly undermined pre existing g strengths and characterization.
Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-29 at 05:32 AM.
"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."
Such a shame. So many good things about the series.
Some awful ones too.
1. It needs a full season for sure. Not 10 episodes
2. It may have been better to animate
3. It need to follow the book more closely. Book had such a cool style to it.
4. It needed to better translate the lore and thoughts of the characters the writing fleshed out well.
5. Avoid making unnecessary changes - it’s woke enough, did not need to change script to make women in particular Egwene and any we’ve dragon reborn possibilities.
It changes something important about the dynamic that is t necessary to do so and ribs from the story leaving it worse, cheaper and. More generic.
Egwene has a powerful destiny and her reasons for coming a long we’re strong enough - she is a channeled - discovering that for me felt very powerful - it’s like you can be a wizard. You don’t also need to be Ta’veren and potentially the dragon reborn on top of that. It’s like trying to shove her more in my face when I already know she is incredible and has an incredible Dre all her own, not wheel or destiny dependent.
By a eve also has powerful reasons too. To join then and discovering who she is and her power levels was also quite enjoyable.
Making them also ta’veren and potential dragon reborn just really ribs from the boys in particular Mat and Perrin. In a way that smacks of current polarising social politics most readers of the series will instantly spit and it would sour things.
Face it, the book was already more than woke enough to please all the left without angering the right having elements for both.
Knowing the original story just detracts from what was a great fantasy.
Last edited by Mace; 2021-11-29 at 05:56 AM.
Speaking as someone who hasn't read the books, it's fine if a slow start with main characters who seem to bounce from one end of the spectrum to the other which is distracting sometimes as I can't decide if I like them or they're acting like children.
It did catch me out with the innkeeper as I didn't expect the people to follow the dark one. I kind of liked her too.
For me, the heart of the Wheel of Time is
The One power is divided in to two gendered halves, women can access it with minimal issue (although accidents can an do happen). Men who touch it go mad. The two sexes interact differently with the power.
The world was broken by LTT, who was essentially a good guy, driven mad. He has been reincarnated multiple times.
The Dragon Reborn has the power to break the world again or "fix" it. Not only does he have to contend with this but he also knows he will probably go insane, with a high chance of destroying the world again. He has no one to teach him how to use the power, until Asmodean appears and he's not around for long. On top of that, it is highly likely that he will have to give up his life in the process. Meanwhile, his closest friends have their own destiny to fulfill in order to help him (and the world) get to the Last battle ready to go.
All the cultures of the world know this guy is coming and have their own series of prophecies surrounding him -and their own cultural baggage to deal with (Aiel and Tinkers especially).
The White Tower are trying to prepare in their own ways for his arrival and The Last Battle. Meanwhile The Dark One has servants working actively against the Dragon.
Does it matter if there are only 3 forsaken instead of 13 -not really, although there is some significance to the number?
Does it matter that Siuan has brown eyes instead of blue? -Not to me, as long as we get a semblance of her character. It does however matter that she has spent the last 20 years operating in secret trying to ensure the Dragon is kept safe on an increasingly hostile playing field.
Does it matter if Nynaeve over powers Logain significantly and doesn't have a block? -Actually yes. Because losing her block is a major part of her character development. As to power level, she's impressive against the other Aes Sedai, but nowhere close to the Dragon Reborn. What we saw at the end of episode 4 felt like a Chodean Khal level feat -they will have very few places to go with her gaining strength if the first thing she is able to do is a mass heal. It changes the stakes for every battle she is close to. -Lost a lot of soldiers, don't worry lets poke super-woman. It also changes the dynamic of her relationship with the other Aes Sedai from the outset.
There's a lot of side stuff that is pretty damn important but losing the fundamentals turns it into just another generic fantasy series. As to the comments on Robert Jordan's writing of women -I believe a lot of the distaste comes from the fact we don't like having our flaws waved in our faces. He gets more right than wrong, we just don't like to admit it.
Last edited by Smallfruitbat; 2021-11-29 at 01:21 PM.
Because the people running the show haven't even attempted to address it. They literally tossed it, which in turn makes for a shitty "adaptation" of the series when those things are a core element of what makes the IP Wheel of Time.
I mean, there is absolutely no reason the showrunners COULDN'T have included it, and it would have gone a long way towards adding some unique flavor to the generic fantasy theme they currently have going on.
I mean, Removing the whole Gender divide of the One power in WoT is kind of like doing Lord of the Rings where you just cut out the backstory about the lesser rings (like, pretend they don't exist at all) and just focus on building a story around the One Ring as an object of power.
Last edited by Surfd; 2021-11-29 at 12:10 PM.
While everyone is entitled to like and dislike someone’s work for their own reason. Too many in our generation criticises everything regardless giving off such an air of victim mentality - which is terrible. Jordan bad on women? That is laughable. I think he was very realistic and women are more flattering than men in this series.
Also his wife pretty much co-wrote the series.
It’s incredible how often the flaws of men are exposed but even when women are miles better - some would write that they hate his treatment of women. Sigh
They are entitled to their own opinions but I just suspect they are saying that because he is a man and how dare he try to write the opposite sex. or whitewash a gender (these usually expect all women to be flawless and are totally unrealistic)
A lot of totally deranged and insane reactions and comments from readers that make no sense and do not deserve to be treated with an ounce of respect for the utter nonsense they are saying.
Saying that. I like your analysis. I’m not sure the changes you mentioned would be quite as big as you think. But I was wondering if they would ever mention the relative power strength gap between men and women regarding the one power.
If people think that men are stronger in the one power is some anti woman rhetoric from Jordan. Again I say = insane. It’s like how dare you mention men are physically stronger than women, more powerful too in terms of raw strength.
Hate it as you might, this is just how it is. It’s the reality of things. While not every man is stronger than every woman off course, but the genders are different and strength has always been for men. Men regard this a lot and while important they boost it’s significance and value all around. Women who think strength is everything simply covet men and what the men have not realising they have strengths (to use the word) that are just as important and equally valuable - to be honest, these women just want everything, they want all the bonuses women have over men, and all the ones men have - it's called greed and covetousness. you want to have everything over the other - don't know and understand that in life as humans it's about sharing, and none of us have everything, but together we can compliment and fit together to form a complete picture. Some men are obsessed with having everything, the same is for women who want and covet whhat men have.
Part of the problem is also that in this world men don’t think highly of many female qualities - or at least it appears that way to these women (it actually is not the case, it's just that men show their appreciation in different ways, while bragging about the things they find important) but some women are so trapped in victim mode they've literally been warped perception wise, resulting in groups of women angry and thinking things like men being "stronger" is some great cosmic injustice, unfair and hate men for it while trying to be more like men. Because for all their hate they are the most male centred women out there. And often enough they're just lashing out at men (usually because the men are the source of their misery, the great shame is those women who follow them.. making women just as flawed as the idiot men who follow crazy men in destructive and evil behaviour.
[so Jordan writing men are stronger - becomes unacceptable because of these crazies, and it's worse when director's/producers will change this not to offend people - it's so annoying, you are entitled to hate this about his work, you are entitled to hate the fact that men are stronger - I think you're greedy and foolish to focus on another's positives instead of your own or wanting everything including that which is not part of you. but hey.. somehow it is now acceptable for women to do so, but not for men, and un-natural almost to some crazies out there that we have a different gender.. and they should never be pandered to - because they've gone crazy, lost the plot on life and lost any iota of wisdom)
The greatest and best women don’t try to cover what men have and envy their positives, they can admire and find sexy the positive attributes of men but they understand the positives of women and accept themselves using it to astonishing and beneficial effect that when the true accounts of history are told you will find women amongst men as equals but different.
Sure if men write the history books then it’s going to focus on all the things men find important. If women don’t teach their daughters to look beyond the bravado and the “hairs on my chest” mentality of men they will be swept up in a man’s world like some feminists have succumbed. When it had stopped being about equality with men and about being men themselves. Equity not equality.
One if the greatest charms of Jordan’s book was how incredible women were without turning them into men. Women controlled the world, yet men were still physically stronger and stronger in the power.
That’s a stunning presentation perceiving the truth about the genders and yet presenting an alternate reality where things were different without changing women into men.
But we live in an insane age where the rhetoric of crazy people seem to have a lot more power and influence.
Last edited by Mace; 2021-11-29 at 01:20 PM.