[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Triceron]

Yes, I want to see a respectful adaptation of the series -and fidelity to the books is important for that. I have no problem with cutting things down where necessary for brevity or making changes to fit the medium, I like what they've done with Thom so far.

I don't want to see a series that is frankly 'male bashing'. There was no need to do a hatchet job on Abel Cauthon, or have Egwene's Dad appear hen pecked. Nor was there any need to have Perrin's wife working the forge alone while he was drinking with the boys. You don't need to bring someone else done to make a character look good.

With regards to Brandon Sanderson, I don't think he has any influence. He said in one of his Reddit posts that he would be there 'as long as they needed him' as a resource. He would be foolish to start rubbishing the show, he's said many times there are changes that he was not happy with. Rafe may say that he gives more weight to Brandons notes but at the end of the day, he was boasting about taking feedback from his own Mother. The guy is going to go in his own direction like it or not.

I completely agree. A lot of those changes, I'm not really sure what angle they're trying to present here since it does feel like needless changes for the sake of change. I don't fully see its purpose yet, though I have a feeling it's more an influence of today's culture more than anything. I'm not ready to be that quick to judge, nor do I necessarily see offense in the changes quite yet. I mean, similar arguments could be made on the racial changes of characters, and really I'm just happy enough that no one here is being hung up on that in particular.

[Xath]

I have said a number of times now that the TV series has problems. I just don't think all the pearl clutching over the prophecy being changed is warranted. And I really don't want to go into another round of that particular debate...so I'm gonna leave it at that. I haven't changed anyone's minds about it and no one has changed mine...best to just agree to disagree and move on.

Also, I really enjoyed the series...for the first 6-7 books. And then it turns into a painful slog to get through every single book. That's my opinion, you don't have to agree.

Robert Jordan originally envisioned the series as 6 books. I think it would have been better if he had stuck to that. At least then he would have been able to finish the series himself.

Except we aren't just talking about the prophecy we are talking about gendered souls which along with the yin yang nature of the one power is at the heart of wheel and you just keep dismissing everything as "dogma" why because you didn't like the series. Also try audio books while doing work if you find it that painful of a slog to get through. Part of the issue of wheel's density is the opportunity cost elsewhere if you are listening to an audiobook while working that issue goes away.

- - - Updated - - -

I completely agree. A lot of those changes, I'm not really sure what angle they're trying to present here since it does feel like needless changes for the sake of change. I don't fully see its purpose yet, though I have a feeling it's more an influence of today's culture more than anything. I'm not ready to be that quick to judge, nor do I necessarily see offense in the changes quite yet. I mean, similar arguments could be made on the racial changes of characters, and really I'm just happy enough that no one here is being hung up on that in particular.

Personally I'm just choosing not to talk about how every tiny hamlet is looking like a us city rather than a tiny hamlet but that's because I don't want to hear the screams of racism. I did always find the concept of the breaking interesting how cultures became mismatched with what we consider their current racial identities but hey can't have that in current day apparently. Diversity over all things even when the books themselves are incredibly diverse just not in the main cast and the two rivers area/andor.

[rhorle]

Concerning the gendering, all that was explained by the creator is that certain people don't fully believe the prophecy. And as they explain, that already happens in the book. It doesn't mean everyone is operating on Moraine and the one Darkfriend's ideas of a female Dragon Reborn being possible.

Except that isn't what they are going with. The trivia for the show explicitly states that the Karaethon Cycle has him or her. This is the main Prophecy handed down from the Age of Legends by people that actually lived through the Breaking of the World. It isn't about people not fully believing the prophecy but about it being changed. So it is that everyone, including the average joe in the world, is operating on the idea that the Dragon Reborn could be female because the Karaethon Cycle is the main legend people know the Dragon from.

[Xath]

Except that isn't what they are going with. The trivia for the show explicitly states that the Karaethon Cycle has him or her. This is the main Prophecy handed down from the Age of Legends by people that actually lived through the Breaking of the World. It isn't about people not fully believing the prophecy but about it being changed. So it is that everyone, including the average joe in the world, is operating on the idea that the Dragon Reborn could be female because the Karaethon Cycle is the main legend people know the Dragon from.

FFS they literally changed the cycle that's so freaking bad. I assume they have just completely written Gitara out at this point which anyone who knows how the dragon came to be would know is a big freaking problem in terms of having him born. Of course if they change it to Nynaeve that won't matter lols.

[Flurryfang]

Yes, I want to see a respectful adaptation of the series -and fidelity to the books is important for that. I have no problem with cutting things down where necessary for brevity or making changes to fit the medium, I like what they've done with Thom so far.

I don't want to see a series that is frankly 'male bashing'. There was no need to do a hatchet job on Abel Cauthon, or have Egwene's Dad appear hen pecked. Nor was there any need to have Perrin's wife working the forge alone while he was drinking with the boys. You don't need to bring someone else done to make a character look good.

With regards to Brandon Sanderson, I don't think he has any influence. He said in one of his Reddit posts that he would be there 'as long as they needed him' as a resource. He would be foolish to start rubbishing the show, he's said many times there are changes that he was not happy with. Rafe may say that he gives more weight to Brandons notes but at the end of the day, he was boasting about taking feedback from his own Mother. The guy is going to go in his own direction like it or not.

I think a respectful adaptation would simply not be accepted in this day and age, as it would be very unique in its character portrayal as Robert Jordan creates nearly his own gender/race structure inspired from old medieval society. It would be an awesome thing, if that happened, but no show-provider would touch that with a 10 foot pole.

While i don't think they "male bashing" as much as throwing woman in whereever they can, i do believe small changes like that will ruin the story the further we go on. The nature of the village in emons field, with the womans circle vs the mayors office, the balance between male fighters and the female channelers, the interesting cache with the Far Dareis Mai and just the overall story focus of men and woman doing very different things, will just be missed out completly.

I believe that in most stories, gender/race and the roles that come with it, are not that important, unless you are telling a story where it is in focus. The Wheel of Time story is very much a story with especially gender at its core and because of that, i see little future for the show as it is.

[Shadowferal]

Rafe did say that this is a different turning of the wheel..

[Flurryfang]

Rafe did say that this is a different turning of the wheel..

That can be respected, but if that means that some of the best stories in Wheel of Time is not included, then it does not make the show any better.

[Triceron]

Except that isn't what they are going with. The trivia for the show explicitly states that the Karaethon Cycle has him or her. This is the main Prophecy handed down from the Age of Legends by people that actually lived through the Breaking of the World. It isn't about people not fully believing the prophecy but about it being changed. So it is that everyone, including the average joe in the world, is operating on the idea that the Dragon Reborn could be female because the Karaethon Cycle is the main legend people know the Dragon from.

The trivia lacks context, since none of these prophecies have been explictly explained or sourced in the show yet. All we have to go on is what Moraine has said, and the inteo to the series at the beginning of the first episode. That's it.

The Karaethon cycle has not formally entered the show's lore, let's be clear here. We aren't sure how the show chooses to approach this, whether it's completely intended to be gender neutral, or to be explained as misinterpretations of certain translators, or whatever it may be.

The world does not revolve around the Karaethon cycle prophecies, and there are numerous other propjecies that also exist alongside. It just happens that the karaethon cycle ends up being more accurate over time as the prophecies become fulfilled, and frankly we don't know yet how they choose to implement or resolve the gender change in the prophecy itself. Just citing trivia then assuming the cycle is exactly how it works in the book is kinda wavy, since we already know this isn't following the books...

Like, we haven't even reached the Aes Sedai city yet or seen how the leaders there regard the prophecies. There's still plenty left in the air. I'm not saying you're wrong here, and you could be absolutely right that the trivia is exactly as you think it is, and the prophecy is completely changed and the show is still poorly adapted. Well, in that case then still nothing really changes, since the show is obviously still not following the books and has chosen to deviate the prophecy in that way. How it chooses to resolve the plot (or not resolve, like s8 GoT) is really all about waiting and seeing.

[rhorle]

The trivia lacks context, since none of these prophecies have been explictly explained or sourced in the show yet. All we have to go on is what Moraine has said, and the inteo to the series at the beginning of the first episode. That's it.

It doesn't lack context. It is giving us information about the world from an out of show perspective. It can not be dismissed simply because it proves your wrong lol. They are not going to change the Trivia from the books then change it again in the show when the entire purpose of showing it during the episode is to give brief insights into the show itself.

[Triceron]

It doesn't lack context. It is giving us information about the world from an out of show perspective. It can not be dismissed simply because it proves your wrong lol. They are not going to change the Trivia from the books then change it again in the show when the entire purpose of showing it during the episode is to give brief insights into the show itself.

I'm not dismissing it? I said it lacks context to the show since you inferred a bunch of other stuff that is how it works in the book that has not been shown completely relevant to the show universe yet.

The karaethon cycle hasn't been explained in the show yet.

[rhorle]

I'm not dismissing it? I said it lacks context to the show since you inferred a bunch of other stuff that is how it works in the book that has not been shown completely relevant to the show universe yet. The karaethon cycle hasn't been explained in the show yet.

The karaethon cycle doesn't need to be explained in the show to know they changed it though. Because the show tells us it is changed through the trivia/facts when paused. You are dismissing it because information you don't like "lacks context" and is ignored simply because it wasn't shown on-screen.

[Triceron]

The karaethon cycle doesn't need to explained in the show to know how they changed it though. Because the show tells us it is changed through the trivia. Which is you dismissing it because information you don't like "lacks context" and is ignored simply because it wasn't shown on-screen.

Sure it does, because we don't know how closely all the characters and organizations are adhering to the prophecies, or how the genderization actually changes the end result of the Dragon Reborn being unveiled.

This whole thing has a trickle effect, same as having Logain be in awe over Nynaeve's display in the latest ep. That's not how Logain acts in the book, right? And he has no reason in the book to even regard Nynaeve as a potential dragon even if she displayed her powers in the way the show did, right? Obviously the show is painting a different picture of the world and how the characters are reacting to the information they're told.

Within the universe, it makes sense for Logain to be in awe if the prophecy was not specific to males, and this is just one example of what I am talking about in context to the show's lore, and not just applying book lore where Logain wouldn't be in awe of any female channeler's potential to be the Dragon Reborn.

And again, we're both clearly understanding that you already consider this a poor adaptation, so I'm making no effort to change your perspective on that. I'm pointing out that the rest of your statement pertaining to how the prophecy is regarded in the series is based on the book, and not the show itself.

[rhorle]

Sure it does, because we don't know how closely all the characters and organizations are adhering to the prophecies, or how the genderization actually changes the end result of the Dragon Reborn being unveiled.

So we are told it is changed from an out of show perspective but we can't know that it is changed until the show tells us? Lmao. What is the point in discussing things if you won't accept cold hard facts about changes?

[bledgor]

You're right, you can make the claim. But claims are meaningless, numbers are all that matters. Despite all the fucking whining, GoT was one of the most watched shows in existence, The Witcher was a massive success for Netflix, and Wheel of Time is one of the most watched series releases so far on the platform - Amazon has said that it far exceeded expectations which had already been set at a high bar.

Nobody gives a shit what you and your buddies think except you and your buddies, unless it is costing them money. If you like the books, go read the fucking books. If you want a faithful series, cash up and go make one. It's hilarious to think that you think that the people who made the series AREN'T every bit as big Wheel of Time fans as you are, but that's another point entirely.

I wasn't the one who brought claims, you were and I was showing you a rebuttal. Nobody gives the shit of any one/small subsection of fans, but judging by the the various sources/media I have looked at a lot of people gave the show a chance (the high numbers you talk about) but have little to no interest in continuing to watch this bastard child of Rafe and Jordan (its called retention, and this show is going to fail there).

Maybe because I am not an egotistical nutjob that thinks not only can I adopt a series, but you know what, I am smarter than the author and let me arbitrary make changes to fit MY political/social agenda, not what made the story a cohesive and narrative respected piece of literature. Just because some people like to eat shit and call it chocolate doesn't mean I should. Usually if I am a fan of something I don't feel the need to constantly change pieces of the story to fit a social narrative, I let the piece I enjoy stand for itself. It's hilarious you think people that constantly change things to get social points give more than 2 fucks about the story they are turning into frankensteins monster.

[BeepBoo]

Like I said, I'm not going to involve myself more, but I wildly disagree with you about who's the supposed fan here.

People can be fans of different aspects.

I constantly tout the starwars universe as my favorite fandom. The concepts, ideas, and major factions behind things are _by far_ the coolest shit to ever walk the earth to me.

However, the movies, characters, etc... range from being fun but mediocre, to absolutely horrible and forgetful.

To that end, I can sympathize with both people who are fans of the ACTUAL story and people who just like the world built by WOT.
However, as someone who knows next to nothing about the series and never read the books, the show is a solid 5/10 that I'd expect on CW :lol:

And, after reading this thread and talking with my wife (who HAS read all the books), the obvious alterations and large steps from the books aren't ones I'd have liked if I was aware of this stuff ahead of time, either.

[Xath]

People can be fans of different aspects.

I constantly tout the starwars universe as my favorite fandom. The concepts, ideas, and major factions behind things are _by far_ the coolest shit to ever walk the earth to me.

However, the movies, characters, etc... range from being fun but mediocre, to absolutely horrible and forgetful.

To that end, I can sympathize with both people who are fans of the ACTUAL story and people who just like the world built by WOT.
However, as someone who knows next to nothing about the series and never read the books, the show is a solid 5/10 that I'd expect on CW :lol:

And, after reading this thread and talking with my wife (who HAS read all the books), the obvious alterations and large steps from the books aren't ones I'd have liked if I was aware of this stuff ahead of time, either.

This is exactly what I expected when I saw the casting and read the story leaks a cw show and not like early arrow but like late arrow

[Shadowferal]

Oh Light! How I would love to see the feedback if he did that. I wonder how many of the die hard defenders would cling on.

It would fit in with all the stuff he's been saying, that he wasn't following how the books went, that this was a different turn of the Wheel.

[Nynax]

It would fit in with all the stuff he's been saying, that he wasn't following how the books went, that this was a different turn of the Wheel.

Let's remake Lord of the Rings, but I feel that this time Frodo should give the Ring up to Boromir, which opens up the potential for a more interesting redemption ark for him and the people of Gondor. I also think it would be interesting if the last survivor of Niminor, heir to Isildur, was the rightful queen of Gondor. It would also help explain some of the distrust and tension between her and Boromir.

/s

[Rennadrel]

It would fit in with all the stuff he's been saying, that he wasn't following how the books went, that this was a different turn of the Wheel.

Then might as well not use the names of the same characters or try to recreate their likeness if that's the case.

[Xath]

Let's remake Lord of the Rings, but I feel that this time Frodo should give the Ring up to Boromir, which opens up the potential for a more interesting redemption ark for him and the people of Gondor. I also think it would be interesting if the last survivor of Niminor, heir to Isildur, was the rightful queen of Gondor. It would also help explain some of the distrust and tension between her and Boromir.

/s

don't forget that her and Boromir get it on