1. #1101
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    Yeah absolutely, but I'm not arguing that that's not the case in the books so you're totally right. What I'm saying is that it's not too much of a change to say that that's not how this all happened in the story that's on the TV. I don't think it's a big change to say that in terms of Gitara's foretelling and the prophecies (I actually can't remember if the prophecies cite gender, iirc I don't think the old tongue has gendered pronouns but I could be wrong) that the gender of the DR isn't known.
    It is much of a change though, because it fundamentally breaks how the world works.

    The Dragon is male. The Dragon's soul is male—as that is a property that functions that way in the WoT universe. Throughout every Age that has ever come to pass, the Dragon has always been male, and always will be. Same deal for everyone else who is ever reborn too, for that matter. To change that is to change the entire cosmic reality of how that world works. It is basically on par with going "hey by the way gravity doesn't exist in our show". To pretend that the Dragon could be anything but male changes everything.

    It's not about whether the show is better one way or the other, it is about shitting on the entire core of what makes the Wheel of Time be the Wheel of Time. To achieve... what, exactly? The writers aren't gaining anything relevant or compelling out of this at all, they're just sufficiently clueless to view it as not a big deal. It is a big deal.
    Last edited by Arikara; 2021-12-02 at 01:23 PM.

  2. #1102
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    It is much of a change though, because it fundamentally breaks how the world works.

    The Dragon is male. The Dragon's soul is male—as that is a property that functions that way in the WoT universe. Throughout every Age that has ever come to pass, the Dragon has always been male, and always will be. Same deal for everyone else who is ever reborn too, for that matter. To change that is to change the entire cosmic reality of how that world works. It is basically on par with going "hey by the way gravity doesn't exist in our show". To pretend that the Dragon could be anything but male changes everything.

    It's not about whether the show is better one way or the other, it is about shitting on the entire core of what makes the Wheel of Time be the Wheel of Time. To achieve... what, exactly? The writers aren't gaining anything relevant or compelling out of this at all, they're just sufficiently clueless to view it as not a big deal. It is a big deal.
    It's not changing that the DR is male, it's changing whether the Aes Sedai of the current age know he's male. If the DR shows up every 3k years and there are multiple society-levelling events during that time, it's easy to see how information can get lost or distorted and that's before we even throw Ishamael's shenanigans into the mix.

  3. #1103
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    It is much of a change though, because it fundamentally breaks how the world works.
    Except that only applies if the DR ends up not being male.

    That certain individuals in the series think it could be reborn into female is just a matter of interpreting prophecy in an unexpected (to the audience) way. The rest of the plot that revolves around a male DR still carries on.

    And as for the way the world works, the rules are already different. This isn't the book universe, and the character backgrounds and prophecy changes should already be clear about it not being the same world. This is one where Mats parents are neglectful and where Perrin had a wife that he accidentally kills. The world isn't the same.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-12-02 at 01:31 PM.

  4. #1104
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    Change of tangent. I came across this video regarding Loial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVs5rSqJxrY

    Holy shit, I hope it's a joke or pre CGI.

  5. #1105
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    It's not changing that the DR is male, it's changing whether the Aes Sedai of the current age know he's male. If the DR shows up every 3k years and there are multiple society-levelling events during that time, it's easy to see how information can get lost or distorted and that's before we even throw Ishamael's shenanigans into the mix.
    Lots of things are lost and forgotten throughout the Ages. Not that.

    It is thoroughly established in the Third Age that people know the Dragon is male. Hell, multiple wars have already been fought as a result when some False Dragon or other declares themselves Dragon—and not just in the recent years leading up to when the books are set. It is an established fact upon which a slew of history is built upon.

    And... what? You think Ishamael wants to obscure that? Why? It isn't even within the realm of his agenda to bother trying, nor would it be within his power to succeed given that it is so thoroughly documented (also Gitara's Foretelling would have rendered any attempt moot anyway) and that he has only had two brief windows to even take any action at all (roughly once every thousand years) before the books even start, during which he was a lot more preoccupied orchestrating the Trolloc Wars and the War of a Hundred Years than... what, trying to make it slightly harder to identify the dragon? He wouldn't even have cause to care about that; Ishamael cares about the metaphysics involving the struggle between Light and Dark. He wants to kill the Dragon himself, but unlike Sammael and Demandred who are just salty at Lews Therin (and consequently Rand too), Ishamael wants the great conflict of Light battling the Dark to take place, and he wants to act as the champion of the Dark. Obscuring simple facts about the Dragon or killing him prematurely is utterly irrelevant to him.

    Also, Ages don't have a set length. The Dragon shows up when the Dragon is needed, which happens to coincide with the end of the current Age.

  6. #1106
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    snip
    I mean, none of that has to change just because in the show they don't know the DR must be male. I really feel like you're putting effort into taking issue with the show so it's probably best to agree to disagree.

    And as for Ishy, we know for sure he was acting to limit societal progression, it's not much more of a stretch for him to meddle with what the Aes Sedai of whatever time consider truth or prophecy. And he'd had motive to muddle that for the same reason Gitara was murdered, to keep those on the side of light as ignorant as possible so they can achieve their goals. Ishy wants the Dark One to win, them getting to the DR before Moiraine would've pretty much secured that.

  7. #1107
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    It is much of a change though, because it fundamentally breaks how the world works.

    The Dragon is male. The Dragon's soul is male—as that is a property that functions that way in the WoT universe. Throughout every Age that has ever come to pass, the Dragon has always been male, and always will be. Same deal for everyone else who is ever reborn too, for that matter. To change that is to change the entire cosmic reality of how that world works. It is basically on par with going "hey by the way gravity doesn't exist in our show". To pretend that the Dragon could be anything but male changes everything.

    It's not about whether the show is better one way or the other, it is about shitting on the entire core of what makes the Wheel of Time be the Wheel of Time. To achieve... what, exactly? The writers aren't gaining anything relevant or compelling out of this at all, they're just sufficiently clueless to view it as not a big deal. It is a big deal.
    You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. Either the writers aren't getting anything meaningful out of it because it is a meaningless change, or it changes EVERYTHING and thus is a meaningful change. Which is it?

    The reality is that the change is incredibly unimportant unless you have a strange vested interest in the dragon being male. Otherwise, it just doesn't matter. That's the good thing about fantasy.

  8. #1108
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. Either the writers aren't getting anything meaningful out of it because it is a meaningless change, or it changes EVERYTHING and thus is a meaningful change. Which is it?

    The reality is that the change is incredibly unimportant unless you have a strange vested interest in the dragon being male. Otherwise, it just doesn't matter. That's the good thing about fantasy.
    Uh, no. I am saying that making this change changes everything by invalidating one of the most fundamental properties of the Wheel of Time. I am also saying that by making this change, the show writers get nothing out of it except pissing off fans because the change they've made doesn't make for a better or more compelling story—on the contrary. So not only are they making a change with massive negative consequences, they also don't have a good reason to be doing so. And people are defending it... why? Perhaps you feel that it doesn't matter because you don't know any better, and somehow that passes as a valid argument?

  9. #1109
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That's exactly what 'Based on' means. This is literally semantics when 'Based on' already implies that it's not the actual source. It's literally no different than 'Inspired by'.

    You don't look at something that's based on something else and expect it to be exactly the same, otherwise it wouldn't even need to say 'based on'.

    Like if we were to talk about the Back to the Future musical being 'based on' or 'inspired by' the movie, there's literally no difference in the wording even if the musical aims to translate the movie 1:1 in musical theatre form; it's still implied that it's not the same thing as the movie and will have creative liberties taken. Or say a movie literally 'based on' true life events, the movie can take creative liberties regardless. It's not a documentary or biography.

    And circling back to points I've made all too many times, this is literally no different than how LOTR and Game of Thrones approached their respective movie/shows all while being 'based on' the original novels. There was no need to imply later seasons of GoT were simply 'Inspired by' because all the changes they made to the show, or have the Hobbit be 'Inspired by' because of all the additions and changes that never existed in the original novel. At the end of the day, we're still talking about Adaptations.
    I'm not trying to argue the semantics of "inspired by" and "based on". My point is that the title of the Wheel of Time TV show doesn't say either. The title just shows, "Wheel of Time".

    For your comparisons, Game of Thrones is extremely faithful to the books. One of the most beat for beat adaptations I've seen.
    Following major plot points, LotR is also very faithful to the books, as is the Hobbit.

    If you want to make a comparison to Egwene being the Dragon, that would be similar to plot changes where Sansa kills Dany and becomes Queen Beyond the Wall; or Arwen keeps the reforged Shards of Narcil, summons the Army of the Dead and saves Minas Tirith; or Tauriel being the one who finds the ring, riddles with Smaug, finds the Arkenstone, and brings the 5 armies together. They would become different stories, "based on" or "inspired by" the original work. Not an adaptation of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. Either the writers aren't getting anything meaningful out of it because it is a meaningless change, or it changes EVERYTHING and thus is a meaningful change. Which is it?

    The reality is that the change is incredibly unimportant unless you have a strange vested interest in the dragon being male. Otherwise, it just doesn't matter. That's the good thing about fantasy.
    Have to back what Arikara is saying. That change fundamentally breaks how the world works. Changes the history of the ages. Changes how the magic system works. The pivotal plot points of the story revolve around this. And even if we say the show writers are just trying to throw us off and the Dragon remains who they are at the end, that at least doesn't break the lore, but even that is problematic, as the Aes Sedai know the Dragon has to be male because they understand how saidar and saidin work.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  10. #1110
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I'm not trying to argue the semantics of "inspired by" and "based on". My point is that the title of the Wheel of Time TV show doesn't say either. The title just shows, "Wheel of Time".


    You mean like this?

    Literally 1:19 into the intro after the actor credits



    If you want to make a comparison to *spoiler*, that would be similar to plot changes where Sansa kills Dany and becomes Queen Beyond the Wall; or Arwen keeps the reforged Shards of Narcil, summons the Army of the Dead and saves Minas Tirith; or Tauriel being the one who finds the ring, riddles with Smaug, finds the Arkenstone, and brings the 5 armies together. They would become different stories, "based on" or "inspired by" the original work. Not an adaptation of it.
    Sure, and we can talk about that if the series takes that turn. I don't see the point in making a big deal out of potential changes that haven't actually happened yet.

    And the thing is, LOTR (and Hobbit) is still simply based on and inspired by the original work; that is literally what an adaptation means. Tauriel simply existing and having interactions with the rest of the characters is already a different story than what was in the books, you don't need her to suddenly find the ring or interact with Smaug for it to be any different than her simply existing in the story and having romantic subplot with Fili and interactions with Legolas and the Elf King. The examples you made are literally no different, and you're just describing what an adaptation already is. Even GoT already made sweeping changes, like Bran on the Iron Throne even though it makes zero sense with him already being the three eyed raven.

    I believe LOTR and Hobbit already do credit themselves being based on the respective works of J.R.R. Tolkien, it's already listed so on WIkipedia. Not quite sure why you're suggesting that 'based on' and 'inspired by' are somehow different from being adaptations... they're literally the same thing. Perhaps you are thinking of the word translation? But I'm not sure that works either, since no film or tv series is ever a translation of any book; they're always going to be adaptations.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-12-02 at 05:42 PM.

  11. #1111
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    It is much of a change though, because it fundamentally breaks how the world works.

    The Dragon is male. The Dragon's soul is male—as that is a property that functions that way in the WoT universe. Throughout every Age that has ever come to pass, the Dragon has always been male, and always will be. Same deal for everyone else who is ever reborn too, for that matter. To change that is to change the entire cosmic reality of how that world works. It is basically on par with going "hey by the way gravity doesn't exist in our show". To pretend that the Dragon could be anything but male changes everything.

    It's not about whether the show is better one way or the other, it is about shitting on the entire core of what makes the Wheel of Time be the Wheel of Time. To achieve... what, exactly? The writers aren't gaining anything relevant or compelling out of this at all, they're just sufficiently clueless to view it as not a big deal. It is a big deal.
    The makers are willing to accept that in this reality, reincarnation is a thing, but at e not willing to accept that souls are male or female and this is what determines the gender when burn

    Why? Because of social politics intersectional religion. It’s so daft.

    Even if you don’t believe in souls and binary genders, it’s actually a thing and if you write a fantasy world where this is a thing then it is.

    Changing it for social media gluts is annoying and disgraceful

  12. #1112
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. Either the writers aren't getting anything meaningful out of it because it is a meaningless change, or it changes EVERYTHING and thus is a meaningful change. Which is it?

    The reality is that the change is incredibly unimportant unless you have a strange vested interest in the dragon being male. Otherwise, it just doesn't matter. That's the good thing about fantasy.
    It's strange to have a vested interest in a bedrock element of the series remaining the same? Souls are reborn throughout the age into bodies that match they become bound to the wheel. Rafe has basically said that doesn't exist which is bedrock breaking. The Yin and Yang nature of the one power is also incredibly important.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post


    You mean like this?

    Literally 1:19 into the intro after the actor credits





    Sure, and we can talk about that if the series takes that turn. I don't see the point in making a big deal out of potential changes that haven't actually happened yet.

    And the thing is, LOTR (and Hobbit) is still simply based on and inspired by the original work; that is literally what an adaptation means. Tauriel simply existing and having interactions with the rest of the characters is already a different story than what was in the books, you don't need her to suddenly find the ring or interact with Smaug for it to be any different than her simply existing in the story and having romantic subplot with Fili and interactions with Legolas and the Elf King. The examples you made are literally no different, and you're just describing what an adaptation already is. Even GoT already made sweeping changes, like Bran on the Iron Throne even though it makes zero sense with him already being the three eyed raven.

    I believe LOTR and Hobbit already do credit themselves being based on the respective works of J.R.R. Tolkien, it's already listed so on WIkipedia. Not quite sure why you're suggesting that 'based on' and 'inspired by' are somehow different from being adaptations... they're literally the same thing. Perhaps you are thinking of the word translation? But I'm not sure that works either, since no film or tv series is ever a translation of any book; they're always going to be adaptations.
    Stop putting down LoTR and the Hobbit as though they are the same type of adapt. LoTR especially the extended editions is relatively faithful to the original books the hobbit has massive sideplots added on to pad it into three movies. Even then the Hobbit is so more faithful to it's source material than this show has been so far.

  13. #1113
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Stop putting down LoTR and the Hobbit as though they are the same type of adapt. LoTR especially the extended editions is relatively faithful to the original books the hobbit has massive sideplots added on to pad it into three movies. Even then the Hobbit is so more faithful to it's source material than this show has been so far.
    I'm not putting them down, I'm pointing out that they're still adaptations regardless of not having more extreme changes to the plot.

    And whether it is more faithful to the source or not doesn't change the fact it's still an adaptation, and that it's already considered 'based on' the source material. Maybe you haven't followed the context but my reply, because you seem to keep thinking I'm bringing up LOTR and GOT as a means to bring them down to Wheel of Time level of faithfulness, when my point is that they are all adaptations regardless of how faithful they are to the source. You don't get to pick and choose what is and what isn't an adaptation just because something has been utterly changed.

    Even movies like Total Recall and Starship Troopers are adaptations of the novels, even if the stories and characters are wildly different.

    I am making a point that no one should be distinguishing something they don't consider faithful as being an adaptation while implying faithful ones are something different. Either way, the movies are still adaptations. I don't know why people are choosing the word 'adaptation' as a means to distinguish how faithful something is to the source, when that isn't how the word is used at all. Adaptation is used for anything that is adapted to another medium.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-12-02 at 07:04 PM.

  14. #1114
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Even movies like Total Recall and Starship Troopers are adaptations of the novels, even if the stories and characters are wildly different.
    If those are "good" examples of adaptations, then I'd say those are apt examples indeed.

  15. #1115
    Starship Troopers' adaptation of its novel was so good it became a satire of the themes of the fascist, authoritarian-loving author who wrote the book. It became the exact opposite themes of the novel it was based on.

  16. #1116
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Starship Troopers' adaptation of its novel was so good it became a satire of the themes of the fascist, authoritarian-loving author who wrote the book. It became the exact opposite themes of the novel it was based on.
    it was never meant to be an adaptation of the book. they just happened to have the rights to it, so they renamed a few characters and made aliens - bugs. but if you look into the history of the movie, it was supposed to be its own thing. it sucks as an adaptation because it was never meant to be one.

    on casting.




    goes into Jordan's notes and everything.

  17. #1117
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    it was never meant to be an adaptation of the book. they just happened to have the rights to it, so they renamed a few characters and made aliens - bugs. but if you look into the history of the movie, it was supposed to be its own thing. it sucks as an adaptation because it was never meant to be one.

    on casting.




    goes into Jordan's notes and everything.
    Disagree on your point of view on it supposed to be it's own thing. It's very much the Wheel of Time, and it's an excellent production, if they didn't change silly things like "the dragon reborn potetnially being female" - so un-necessary, i'd have given it 5 stars - despite the other minor changes.

    Sticking closer to the book would have been better, but it was still very good, as annoyed and irritated as i am by the changes they chose to make.

  18. #1118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    They fucked that one up , but then most people today don’t understand racial homogeny because tv lies for diversity sake.

    Diversity is a great thing and definitely needed. But when you do a period drama or a fantasy world that has a national history that strongly indicates racial homogeny it trivialises it to change it for the sake of diversity.

    Plenty of opportunity fir non white characters and diversity in the story. But if they failed to give diversity they would have come under the oh so feared criticism of twitteratti

    - - - Updated - - -

    But let’s not pretend as if the all white shows of the past weren’t full of flaws.

    Irritated as I maybe by the change in ethnicities of the main characters, there is still a lot of good things about the show.

    It’s just not as good as the books. But it’s still entettaining as a well polished decent but standard fantasy.
    WoT is a diverse world, but nations tend to not be within the world itself. The Sea Folk for instance, are dark skinned, primarily because they spend their life on the water so it's safe to assume that they'd be akin to Central Americans or darker skinned people from the Middle East. Within the scope of the story, war and economic strife do unseat people from their homelands and eventually you start to see that ethnic homogenization of countries start to shift as a result of events in the world, especially in the Two Rivers where they get people in from Toman Head and Falme after the events involving Rand and the Seanchan in that area.

  19. #1119
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Disagree on your point of view on it supposed to be it's own thing. It's very much the Wheel of Time, and it's an excellent production, if they didn't change silly things like "the dragon reborn potetnially being female" - so un-necessary, i'd have given it 5 stars - despite the other minor changes.

    Sticking closer to the book would have been better, but it was still very good, as annoyed and irritated as i am by the changes they chose to make.
    I wasn't talking about wheel of time in my first paragraph. I was talking about Starship troopers. I was replying to a post about starship troopers. I'm aware that wheel of time is a deliberate adaptation of the books. starship troopers was not, that's why its so different from the book.

    also few pages back, I cannot remember who it was but they made a suggestion that the reason the show is making it sound like any one of the 4 can be a dragon is to create a mystery for the viewers to talk about, to keep them engaged, especially if they haven't read the books. it doesn't mean they will change who the dragon ultimately is, but rather they wanted to give people some watercooler topics to chat about. whether its the actual intent, I don't know but it certainly seems to be working out that way.

    P.S. on homogeneity and diversity of places... it takes a long time of FULL on isolation rather couple of generations with trade still happening and families moving in or out - for genuine homogeneity to happen. moreover, aside from the fact that Jordan was NOT cribbing directly from various countries but rather pulled inspiration from them and combined bits and pieces (as per interviews with him) - have any of you ever been in those supposedly homogenous countries? cause they are not nearly as homogenous as some of you assume.
    Last edited by Witchblade77; 2021-12-02 at 11:31 PM.

  20. #1120
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Starship Troopers' adaptation of its novel was so good it became a satire of the themes of the fascist, authoritarian-loving author who wrote the book. It became the exact opposite themes of the novel it was based on.
    If anything I had looked forward to seeing humans in power armor that could level cities.

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