[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Shadowferal]

Still haven't bothered to watch e7.... maybe this weekend. I heard enough about it that I don't feel like I'm missing much.

I heard the opening scene was impressive. A very pregant (and in labor) Tigraine (Rand's mom in a flashback scene) fighting for her life...and Tam showing something rare in any show; undiluted raw humanity.

A singular scene that waited for 6 episodes in...and should have been seen a lot sooner.
From the commentary I'm reading the rest of the episode probably isn't worth staining your memory for.

[rhorle]

That's why they list it in minutes. They think stupid advertisers will here BILLION and go "wow a billion people watched this? SIGN ME UP".

Nielsen started tracking VOD by minutes of viewership in 2020. It isn't something Amazon did. Stop letting your disdain from the show attack industry standard and independent metrics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nielse...t_of_streaming

[Nurasu]

I heard the opening scene was impressive. A very pregant (and in labor) Tigraine (Rand's mom in a flashback scene) fighting for her life...and Tam showing something rare in any show; undiluted raw humanity.

A singular scene that waited for 6 episodes in...and should have been seen a lot sooner.
From the commentary I'm reading the rest of the episode probably isn't worth staining your memory for.

I do love how hard they tried to build up the mystery of the dragon (spoiler?) only to drop the reveal in a matter of seconds in the least interesting way possible, and then proceed to blow past it into the blight.

[Sorshen]

Nielsen started tracking VOD by minutes of viewership in 2020. It isn't something Amazon did. Stop letting your disdain from the show attack industry standard and independent metrics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nielse...t_of_streaming

It's still a pretty stupid, misleading metric to brag about.

[Shadowferal]

I do love how hard they tried to build up the mystery of the dragon (spoiler?) only to drop the reveal in a matter of seconds in the least interesting way possible, and then proceed to blow past it into the blight.

Ya... Arstechnica reviewed thst episode and really ripped into it...

[Xath]

Because Arcane doesn't matter. Stop trying to bring everything but the kitchen sink in order to downplay the success that Wheel of Time is having. Arcane being a high rated and excellent show doesn't matter to Wheel of Time also being a success despite your disdain.

They released 3 episodes at once. Each is approximately an hour long if you do the math of 1.16 billion minutes and assume everyone watched all 3 episodes that's about 7 million viewers that's cancelation level numbers for flagship shows on network tv and network tv isn't spending 10 mil an episode. The real question is the numbers of each subsequent episode and how much viewership shrinks.

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There are a handful left that are trying to make excuses. Or as someone else there said they're "rationalizing moments to find coherence."

Yep it's kind of sad how desperate they are at this point.

[Mace]

I do love how hard they tried to build up the mystery of the dragon (spoiler?) only to drop the reveal in a matter of seconds in the least interesting way possible, and then proceed to blow past it into the blight.

Just been reading the book again. Overall, I defintiely think the book's aprpoach would ahve been better. The biggest error was choosing to "focus on Moiraine"

in order to do that, they changed a lot, and much of what mkes sense and a lot of interesting things that build up the story properly, engage an audience, with all the thiills you need for a great show, mystery, intrigue, action, fantasy, wonder is lost..especially ignoring the male characters.


Still they do duplicate a lot of these things, even though it isn't as good, doens't make half as much sense, and lacks the depth and likeability for the characters that the books approach gave.

I'm actually now only noticing how many tell tale signs Jordan had of
1. Nyanaeve actually fancying Lan - it's there quite early on - the show gets it right
2. Rand actually being a channeller - which is subtle in the book and would have worked well in the show.
a) Rand and the flame and the void is very similar to Moiraine's lesson to Egwene on connecting to the One Power
b) Rand's incidents with the power in book 1 are subtle, but are characterised similar to how Moiraine tells Nyneve evidence of things that indicate the power is being used.. Rand has similar during the adventure, unexplainable things - his encounter with the Whitecloaks in Baerlon, his antics at the top of the mast on Bayle Domon's ship.
c) The sicknesses and mood swings that follow power usage.. the incident in Whitebreidge in the inn, Rand is sick and suddenly gets well again
d) Rand is also able to sense dark taints like people who use the one power can, he feels the taint in Padan Fain in Caemlyn, like Moiraine states she can, he feels the wrongness in he weather change as they approach the blight like Nynaeve does
e) It is Rand's desperate need that takes them into the Green man's realm, , in the narrative it is Rand that feels he desperately needs to get out of here at all cost, must,the narrative's description is so great.


I never picked these up in the first 3 readings of the story.. but then, I was a child the first time I read it, and a teen/young adult on subsequent readings.


The books really feel like special epic hero fantasy, the type of wonder, excitement , sense of destiny the best of the genre has to offer. I mean it is "original star wars" level of Epic... and this show, despite being fairly good, failed seriously in doing it justice. This should have been the Game of Thrones (in terms of popularity not in terms of style) of this decade. But their shortcuts and need to make an already woke product even more woke to appease the 0.001% ultra feminists i feel has wasted such an excellent opportunity.

shame. and very foolish. Still let's credit at least some of the good work done in the show. Great acting, some oft he effects were really cool. However a lot of cool stuff was missing.

1. Dragkhar - would be an awesome horror addition
2. Elyas and a proper introduction to the wolves with Perrin - would have made his character so much better
3. Caemlyn - meeting the Queen, Princess and Prince - it happens in such a cool fantasy fariy tale way.
4. Mordeth in Shadar Logoth - was so scary
5. Padan Faine, Gareth Bryne, Child Biar and Lord Bronhald, Bayle Domon all important
6. Loial and Rand's first meet was crucial to the story and understanding it's lore about the pattern, Ta'veren and it is here you know that it's not just the Dragon that is important, there is a scope of important individuals. The boys are definitely Ta'veren, but Egwene and Nynaeve might be too, though Moiraine isn't sure

The whole need to make them dragons or part of the dragon is completely un-necessary and wonky, the book already provides a substantial relevance to them all. Changing so much that is fundamental to the story weakens it substantially because you have to rebuild it, and i can guarantee they are not as careful as an author. For them, it's just a job, for the author it's his baby, his love child, his creation, much more love and careful crafting would have gone into it. And it's his work that people super enjoyed and wanted to see.

[rhorle]

It's still a pretty stupid, misleading metric to brag about.

Not really. Anything is misleading if you don't understand it. It is the industry standard rating, at least in the US, for measuring these types of things. Nielsen ratings are what broadcast TV has used for decades to gauge how many have been tuning in each week to a show.

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They released 3 episodes at once. Each is approximately an hour long if you do the math of 1.16 billion minutes and assume everyone watched all 3 episodes that's about 7 million viewers that's cancelation level numbers for flagship shows on network tv and network tv isn't spending 10 mil an episode. The real question is the numbers of each subsequent episode and how much viewership shrinks.

So 3 episodes that gave over 500 million more then the 2nd place show, with 13 episodes, for the week is "cancellation level"? It is clear you don't really know anything about Television and are just throwing out whatever argument to see what sticks because you don't like the show so therefore it must be terrible as well.

It is also 2+ persons doing the viewing. So it would really be at least 14 million per episode. The launch of the show was a success. To deny it is silly. The remaining numbers will be released in the coming weeks since the streaming networks negotiated for the info to be on a month delay. So we can see how far it dropped but I am sure it will still be successful given how it has dominated primes own #1 spot in the US (and apparently other countries).

[Xath]

Not really. Anything is misleading if you don't understand it. It is the industry standard rating, at least in the US, for measuring these types of things. Nielsen ratings are what broadcast TV has used for decades to gauge how many have been tuning in each week to a show.

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So 3 episodes that gave over 500 million more then the 2nd place show, with 13 episodes, for the week is "cancellation level"? It is clear you don't really know anything about Television and are just throwing out whatever argument to see what sticks because you don't like the show so therefore it must be terrible as well.

It is also 2+ persons doing the viewing. So it would really be at least 14 million per episode. The launch of the show was a success. To deny it is silly. The remaining numbers will be released in the coming weeks since the streaming networks negotiated for the info to be on a month delay. So we can see how far it dropped but I am sure it will still be successful given how it has dominated primes own #1 spot in the US (and apparently other countries).

>It is also 2+ persons doing the viewing

Big assumption there. If we go with that then Arcane is looking at over 200 million viewers and Yellowstone which is on Paramount is matching Wheel. There have been TV shows canceled that were pulling 7 mil plus on average or using your absurd "logic" 14 mil Tera Nova being a great example. And those were shows that didn't show a massive drop in views.

Again Primes #1 spot isn't hard to get. There isn't that much on there that is new. Yeah you get a lot of viewers when you release and there is nothing new out at the time. Most people have nuked through their backlogs at this point with the pandemic I even made a dent in the 500 some steam games I got for 1 buck per pack with humble. What matters is the staying power and drops in view per episode. I would venture to guess the first episode actually had 10 million plus the question is how many dropped per episode after. The issue is the budget is enormous so it has to be a run away smash hit to justify that and it just doesn't seem to be.

[Tyris Flare]

Shockingly hard for people to accept that something they don't like can be popular.

That said, would be interesting to see how many more people are watching the Witcher. I would guess that it's a lot.

[Gumble]

There is ALOT they should have done differently to create a WoT that would have been something the author and fans of the book would have loved, but they didn't.

I was tempted to make a list, however I think the biggest thing that they really should have done is realize that this series is BIG and should be taken at a measured pace and not rushed through. If you want to do a book per season then you need longer seasons. 8 episodes was simply too short to do the first book properly. They did not have time to build the characters or make you care about them at all. They rushed through it and wasted so much time on their own invented scenes that the actual characters in the story got the shaft.

They could have done 13 episodes that would have told the actual story well and given them time to develop the characters and make you care about what was happening.

This would have been my season 1.

1 Introduce characters, boys see the fade and we meet the town, gleeman, peddler, and Moiraine. Should have ended with the door being smashed in at the al'Thor farm. Idyllic Emond's Field with tone of dread layered over it. Make the audience like this town but with a feel that something is coming.
2 Fight at the farm. Tam much better fighter, takes only a scratch. Westwood dragging Tam. Horror of the Fade and Trollocs on the road. Use this episode for flashbacks from Tam's POV to show us him finding Rand. By the end of this episode you should FEEL for Rand and when he walks into the smoking ruins of Emond's Field at the end of it, you should hurt for him.
3 Healing Tam through leaving over the Taren. Should have played up horror elements, should have seen Draghkar up close. Should have had Moiraine's speech to make viewers care about the Two Rivers. This episode could have been from Egwene's perspective or any of the boys.
4 Baerlon, should had short travel scenes to get there. Only important thing is Egwene can channel. Need to introduce Whitecloaks here. Moiraine tall as the wall would have been cool. Introduce Min and have Nynaeve show up. Can expand a bit on the dreams to give dread to the boys. Can start splitting perspective between the boys and Egwene.
5 Shadar Logoth. Should have seen wall of fire (cgi) and Moiraine with angreal being awesome. Should have met Mordeth. Ending on Perrin and Egwene into the river still makes sense, but we need to know Bela makes it. Bela is important. Rand, Mat and Thom end running for the boat.
6 Meet Elyas, meet Bayle Domon. Meet Tinkers. Exposition heavy episode with amazing visuals. Wolves, tinkers, boat. Most of this episode from Perrin's perspective.
7 Whitebridge, cgi but make it HUGE and impressive. Short scenes of Rand and Mat traveling. Perrin and Egwene get caught by Whitecloaks.
8 Four Kings with Goad. R/M travel to Caemlyn and end at the inn. Moiraine/Lan/Nynaeve save Perrin and Egwene. Last scene Rand walks in on Loial. Loial should be CGI, but the actor did well on the voice.
9 Rand meets the royals and Logain brought in. End with Mat attacking Moiraine with the dagger. This episode from nearly all Rand's perspective.
10 The Ways, end with entering Fal Dara. Play up horror in the Ways and Machin Shin. Let Loial get alot of screentime. We can follow whoever during this episode.
11 Fal Dara. Let us learn more about Lan here. Strong scene with Moiraine and Padan Fain. This can be from whomever.
12 Travel through the Blight, army goes to Tarwin's Gap. End with stepping into the sanctuary and seeing Green Man. See what is left of Lan's home. From Rand's perspective at least for finding the Eye due to his 'need'.
13 Eye of the World. Green Man. Forsaken. Rand officially the DR. End with the weather shifting and voice over by Moiraine saying that this was only the first step.


Changes they could have made: Shorten travel times, skip some of the stops along the way (or montage them... we don't need to see Rand and Mat cutting wood or getting chased off a farm in super detail). Moiraine could bring Egwene due to her being ta'veren likes the boys. From the rest of the story, she is obviously as strongly ta'veren as Perrin or Mat and it makes alot of her story make more sense.

Otherwise much of the story should stay as the book had it. Quickly slide through the slower parts but hit all the main action and character building. Nearly every episode I listed ends on a cliff hanger that would give the show the feeling of things happening, and nearly every single episode has a decent amount of action in it (save episode 6, but you meet so many people that it would be ok to have 1 slower episode). As you can see, there is plenty of content that was ACTUALLY IN THE BOOK to fill out more episodes than Amazon made without having to invent nonsense scenes like warders being sad or Aes Sedai needing the Oath Rod to be believed when they give their word.

They should have NOT mentioned the Dragon Reborn until near the end. They should have kept it with Moiraine saying that there was something in those boys that the Dark One wanted and she would oppose him, no matter what. Having the "who is the Dragon" was stupid because book readers already knew and non-readers had NO idea who the Dragon really was because the tiny bit of exposition they gave on it was not nearly enough. The non-readers I've talked to basically thought the Dragon was a villain from the info they got in the show.

13 episodes would have allowed the audience to care about the characters, and the show to be fleshed out and done well to where it actually had stakes you felt by the time they got to the Eye.


What do you all think, ignore what they made and tell me if how I fleshed out the first book for a series would have worked and if you think that would have made for a better first season?

[Coniferous]

Anyone else thinking that they're failing at pacing this thing entirely, too? It's the end of season 1 and Rand is going to face the Dark One. No evidence he knows what he's doing channeling, no seals breaking, just, "oh hey you're the Dragon, let's do this!" How does this lead into season 2? And why did they need to eliminate Shayol Ghul, what a great name that was!

[Xath]

Shockingly hard for people to accept that something they don't like can be popular.

That said, would be interesting to see how many more people are watching the Witcher. I would guess that it's a lot.

The question isn't whether it gets views the question is it gets enough views or drives enough prime subs to justify 10 mil an episode and I just don't think it does. I haven't heard anybody at work talking about it outside the few people I know who have already read the books and those aren't really positive about it. By the end of S1 of GoT it was already being talked about a ton at work.

[rhorle]

Big assumption there.

No.

"Persons 2+ Total Minutes Viewed - Week of 11/15/21 - 11/21/21" https://www.nielsen.com/us/en/top-ten/

You can hate the show all you want but dismissing that it has high viewership or thinking it is in danger of being cancelled despite impressive and chart topping debut viewership is stupid. You are actively fighting against facts just because you have disdain for the show. At some point you have to come to terms with just because you don't like the show doesn't mean the world follows suit and that it can actually have success despite your personal views.

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The question isn't whether it gets views the question is it gets enough views or drives enough prime subs to justify 10 mil an episode and I just don't think it does.

A lot of other Amazon Prime shows have had 10 million an episode budgets and have had far less debut viewership. At this point what will determine the shows fate is Season 2.

[Xath]

No.

"Persons 2+ Total Minutes Viewed - Week of 11/15/21 - 11/21/21" https://www.nielsen.com/us/en/top-ten/

You can hate the show all you want but dismissing that it has high viewership or thinking it is in danger of being cancelled despite impressive and chart topping debut viewership is stupid. You are actively fighting against facts just because you have disdain for the show. At some point you have to come to terms with just because you don't like the show doesn't mean the world follows suit and that it can actually have success despite your personal views.

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A lot of other Amazon Prime shows have had 10 million an episode budgets and have had far less debut viewership. At this point what will determine the shows fate is Season 2.

It's literally a massive assumption rofl. But w/e you can defend your trash show all you want and people here will keep calling you on your bs.

[Frogguh]

Anyone else thinking that they're failing at pacing this thing entirely, too? It's the end of season 1 and Rand is going to face the Dark One. No evidence he knows what he's doing channeling, no seals breaking, just, "oh hey you're the Dragon, let's do this!" How does this lead into season 2? And why did they need to eliminate Shayol Ghul, what a great name that was!

I imagine this is a case of Moiraine and Siuan simply being wrong. They may believe that's what the Eye is, they may believe Rand will face the Dark One there, but I suspect it is Forsaken manipulation.

[rhorle]

It's literally a massive assumption rofl. But w/e you can defend your trash show all you want and people here will keep calling you on your bs.

Using the stated information by the same agency providing viewer information is an assumption? You are the one that reduced it to a viewer count and then are saying I'm wrong because I used your formula with the facts. I haven't really defended the show. I've just come to terms with what it is and can like it for that. I don't need to hold on to hate or keep trying to push false narratives about its success.

[Corvus]

So spoilers are out there for ep 8. If you'd rather face the fresh horrors Rafe is inflicting first hand then turn away now.

Rand and Moiraine get to the Eye, only to meet Ishy, who they think is the DO. Turns out its a plot to get the Dragon there to try and turn him. Ishy overpowers Moiraine and either shields or stills her - the second is the popular theory. Then Rand uses a sa'angreal Moiraine gave him to melt Ishy.

Meanwhile, back at Tarwin's Gap Rand has no part in it. No giant figure in the sky. Nope. The battle is won by 5 women, including Nyn and Eg, linking up and nuking the trolloc army.

Oh, and Agelmar dies by using Hollywood dumb levels of battle tactics.

And Fain shanks Loial with the cursed dagger and appears to kill him (though given that the actor is filing season 2 it would appear he gets better.) Then Fain steals the Horn of Valere which was stored under Agelmar's throne. No, seriously. They keep such a powerful artefact stored under Agelmar's chair (and he isn't even the Shienaran king) right on the frontline to the blight.

And the Seanchan turn up as the teaser.

Plus more.

[Xath]

Using the stated information by the same agency providing viewer information is an assumption? You are the one that reduced it to a viewer count and then are saying I'm wrong because I used your formula with the facts. I haven't really defended the show. I've just come to terms with what it is and can like it for that. I don't need to hold on to hate or keep trying to push false narratives about its success.

If they are actually requiring two plus viewers to register which seems highly unlikely that could also explain the lower number of other shows that are more solo watches my guess is the boxes are just registered to homes of two plus viewers that doesn't means there are always two plus viewers watching.

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So spoilers are out there for ep 8. If you'd rather face the fresh horrors Rafe is inflicting first hand then turn away now.

Rand and Moiraine get to the Eye, only to meet Ishy, who they think is the DO. Turns out its a plot to get the Dragon there to try and turn him. Ishy overpowers Moiraine and either shields or stills her - the second is the popular theory. Then Rand uses a sa'angreal Moiraine gave him to melt Ishy.

Meanwhile, back at Tarwin's Gap Rand has no part in it. No giant figure in the sky. Nope. The battle is won by 5 women, including Nyn and Eg, linking up and nuking the trolloc army.

Oh, and Agelmar dies by using Hollywood dumb levels of battle tactics.

And Fain shanks Loial with the cursed dagger and appears to kill him (though given that the actor is filing season 2 it would appear he gets better.) Then Fain steals the Horn of Valere which was stored under Agelmar's throne. No, seriously. They keep such a powerful artefact stored under Agelmar's chair (and he isn't even the Shienaran king) right on the frontline to the blight.

And the Seanchan turn up as the teaser.

Plus more.

If that's actually true watching the dmount mods try to spin it as good will be hilarious.

[Dancaris]

So spoilers are out there for ep 8. If you'd rather face the fresh horrors Rafe is inflicting first hand then turn away now.

Rand and Moiraine get to the Eye, only to meet Ishy, who they think is the DO. Turns out its a plot to get the Dragon there to try and turn him. Ishy overpowers Moiraine and either shields or stills her - the second is the popular theory. Then Rand uses a sa'angreal Moiraine gave him to melt Ishy.

Meanwhile, back at Tarwin's Gap Rand has no part in it. No giant figure in the sky. Nope. The battle is won by 5 women, including Nyn and Eg, linking up and nuking the trolloc army.

Oh, and Agelmar dies by using Hollywood dumb levels of battle tactics.

And Fain shanks Loial with the cursed dagger and appears to kill him (though given that the actor is filing season 2 it would appear he gets better.) Then Fain steals the Horn of Valere which was stored under Agelmar's throne. No, seriously. They keep such a powerful artefact stored under Agelmar's chair (and he isn't even the Shienaran king) right on the frontline to the blight.

And the Seanchan turn up as the teaser.

Plus more.

Wish it will be closed after season 2. Best case - after season 1, but they are already filming it.
Its so toxic feministic, its so wrong to the source. Every, every male role is bad. Rand is a dick, Perrin - coward and prick, Mat - traitor. Abel - drunkard, Rand dad - the sad sack, Lan is pussy, Agelmar is a dick. Even so - half of male is ripped out, just for female ones. Womans kills the trollock, while man go hiding in shit. Rain the Mahdi? nope, just his wife. Master Luhan? nope, Perrin headcanon wife. Rand winning battle in Tarwin Gasp? nope, females do it. Moraine gives Rand saangreal? what? the fucking what? there were 3 of them and all of it is not available to sisters. But fuck this, its Gendalf style now.
And atop of that - males fails, when woman wins. Every, fucking, time. And atop of that - good things, that male do in books - in show does by female.
Not count that great stories about dads beating their children, males that hold much power in this world and other UGLY SHIT THAT ONLY MALES DO. Only good males - are gay males (aka warders of green sisters) or ones that was saved by females from their masculinity
Total shame - this show, and a world we are living in - if this kind of filming is getting popular.

Glad in my country books is re-publishing once more and I can read it without this toxic modern things (shit ones)