[TV] The Wheel of Time

[rhorle]

I notice you keep avoiding the trends of actual popular shows here I'll link it for you again. Show is getting massacred by The Witcher and would have gotten similarly bodied by Arcane both shows with similar budgets

I am not avoiding them. It just isn't relevant to anything being discussed and is just your continued attempts to move the goals posts. You tried it before and just like before it isn't relevant to anything. Your link is also dead (error 404) so you don't need to keep linking it lol.

[Shadowferal]

[Triceron]

Have you? When you are near term you can be sent into labor from actions.

Was the show over the top? Sure. But that is nitpicking. Also women are not delicate little flowers when pregnant https://www.espn.com/chicago/story/_...on-gives-birth

My kid was born just a little under 2 months ago. Yes, seen labour in action. Even with meds, contractions are a bitch and are beyond exhausting. What that lady happened to do in the show was beyond Wonder Woman levels of superhuman ability.

Fighting in battle is beyond a contact sport. Running and acrobatics are one thing, but fighting is something else completely. And with the type of jumps she was doing while fighting while also in labour? Either she's superhuman, or she was on some insanely strong drugs. Honestly, if they explained it away with magic, it'd be more believable than what we got.

[Gumble]

I guess its ok when Witcher does it because... reasons?

Dunno, I just don't think he cares about the Witcher as much as WoT (which to be honest, I'd assume is most people posting in a WoT thread....).

From what I've seen, there are plenty of people not thrilled with the Witcher either, however it does have a bit better of an outlook than WoT.

Both have writing issues. Witcher's plot is meandering and it treats Geralt like he is just there to babysit Ciri. Both get comments about the writers for those shows just making shit up as they like.

Witcher seems to win out on atmosphere and acting, which is likely why its doing so much better. Cavill carries that show hard and he has alot of fans willing to watch it for just that. Rosamund Pike is an ok actor, but I wouldn't say she has a fan following to draw to WoT. Also the other actors in the Witcher do alot with the scripts they've been given (say what you will about those), but WoT actors mostly feel like either blocks of wood, or warders crying like babies. Neither are particularly likely to draw a crowd.

The Witcher show feels like a good rendition of the game, that is taking too long to give its audience the stuff they want to see (namely Cavill killing monsters). It has suffered from its writing, but that is mostly the only complaint people have.


Wheel of Time, complaints about writing make Witcher look like Shakespeare. Actors performing badly. Costumes that look like a ren-fair. Villains that are laughable. Strange changes to characters and lore that make the world feel less like RJ's world.

Witcher certainly has some issues, but if WoT only had the issues Witcher has? Good lord this thread would be awfully upbeat.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly, if they explained it away with magic, it'd be more believable than what we got.

I wish shows/movies would honestly do this more often. I can totally go with the story if you explain it as "magical powers", but when I see a tiny dude or a woman throwing 300 lbs guys around or fighting like the Matrix it makes it really hard not to treat it like a joke. Tell me she's a Slayer and that she has magical demon powers and I'm good, go at it, but if its just 100 lbs girl hitting guys with a balled fist and not breaking every finger in her hand it just makes it laughable.


Also.... dude, the guy you're responding to is the kind of person who will never see either 1) real fighting or 2) a real life woman who may actual give birth one day..... you are arguing with someone who will refuse to see the sense you are trying to offer. Good luck with that.

[Coniferous]

the irony of complaining about the show going seriously of books while comparing it to another show in favor of that other show.... when that other show has gone JUST as off books if not more so.

I guess its ok when Witcher does it because... reasons?


incidentally, in the book, Tam finds her already dead with newborn next to her, so in a book that newborn was out in a snow likely a heck of a lot longer then in the show where Tam gets him immediately after birth and can start caring for him, warming him up, etc.

her being able to fight while going into labor is mostly "rule of cool" but this is a fantasy show we are talking about, with magical powers and all that jazz and that specific baby being reincarnation of the dragon, so the trope of "special magical baby makes things different" immediately applies here.

in a story where desert people are pale redheads for the sole reason that Jordan thought it would be cool, where all kinds of magical fits are possible.... pregnant woman fighting through early stages of labor? didn't require nearly as much suspension of disbelief for me as the "lucky break - there just so happens to be a body of water deep enough for Perrin and Egwene to jump into and survive right bellow the one spot on the wall that there were chased to by a deadly black stuff taking over everything"

last episode was... not good. but last I checked, original ending of "Eye of the world" was not exactly beloved or appreciated either, so ....

Agreed it wasn't really a big deal from a believability standpoint. To me it was just another instance of the writers' focus on making the female characters heroic badasses, which is fine, except when it also comes neutering all the male characters (at best) or making them evil (at worst).

[rhorle]

Honestly, if they explained it away with magic, it'd be more believable than what we got.

Isn't that what the pattern is? Magic that gets people to do X at Y time and often gives them extraordinary abilities to do so? Or is everyone just assume all the characters get proficient in whatever for the story to work by chance?

[Xath]

I am not avoiding them. It just isn't relevant to anything being discussed and is just your continued attempts to move the goals posts. You tried it before and just like before it isn't relevant to anything. Your link is also dead (error 404) so you don't need to keep linking it lol.

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...3w6j16g,Arcane

fixed

Also I'm not a fan of the Witcher my point is these are the numbers shows spending 10 plus an episode should be looking to have. Would you prefer I go find the numbers for GoT S1 which was spending around 6 an episode and was very faithful to the books?

[Coniferous]

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...3w6j16g,Arcane

fixed

Also I'm not a fan of the Witcher my point is these are the numbers shows spending 10 plus an episode should be looking to have. Would you prefer I go find the numbers for GoT S1 which was spending around 6 an episode and was very faithful to the books?

Yup, because season one of GoT was extremely focused on character development of the main characters, something WoT was sorely lacking. In GoT every scene tells you something about the character - like Tyrion hanging out with whores, Brann climbing the tower, Jon as the bastard child, etc.WoT also kind of teased a big exciting battle but then didn't really have one. GoT was bold because it didn't do the tropey TV things of adding in random conflict left and right or having big flashy action sequences in the first season. I mean, I say bold, but to me it's logical to do things that way...

In WoT, it's an ensemble travelling around together and you're getting a general view, not from any one character's perspective. Also you get dumb scenes like Rand and Perrin fighting over Egwene, which was one of the worst scenes in the history of television.

[rhorle]

Also I'm not a fan of the Witcher my point is these are the numbers shows spending 10 plus an episode should be looking to have. Would you prefer I go find the numbers for GoT S1 which was spending around 6 an episode and was very faithful to the books?

10 million isn't that much an episode. A lot of Amazon shows spend that much. Goliath, The Boys, The Man in the High Castle were all 10 million or more an episode. A lot of the shows are between 5 and 10. The point is 10 million isn't that large of a number anymore. Look at the Lord of the Rings Amazon series that has a rumored budget of $1 Billion for 5 seasons and that is on top of paying 250 for the rights.

You keep trying to bring up everything but the kitchen sink to trash talk Wheel of Time. It doesn't matter what other shows do. Some do less with more and some do more with less. Wheel of Time isn't exceptional but it is decent and it has so far pulled in enough viewers to satisfy Amazon. Which is all that really matters in the end.

Also isn't your link not worth much since "Arcane" is listed as a search term rather then a series like the others? So it skews results to include anything with Arcane in it?

[Xath]

10 million isn't that much an episode. A lot of Amazon shows spend that much. Goliath, The Boys, The Man in the High Castle were all 10 million or more an episode. A lot of the shows are between 5 and 10. The point is 10 million isn't that large of a number anymore. Look at the Lord of the Rings Amazon series that has a rumored budget of $1 Billion for 5 seasons and that is on top of paying 250 for the rights.

You keep trying to bring up everything but the kitchen sink to trash talk Wheel of Time. It doesn't matter what other shows do. Some do less with more and some do more with less. Wheel of Time isn't exceptional but it is decent and it has so far pulled in enough viewers to satisfy Amazon. Which is all that really matters in the end.

Also isn't your link not worth much since "Arcane" is listed as a search term rather then a series like the others? So it skews results to include anything with Arcane in it?

10 million is a huge amount per episode.

Also how many other searches do you think include arcane lols? There is a massive spike when the series comes out and each time a new triad of episodes releases before that it's near nothing.

[rhorle]

10 million is a huge amount per episode.

For modern TV shows it isn't. Why not just get it to use the show? If you are doing a show to show comparison it should all use the same data points and be accurate.

[Xath]

For modern TV shows it isn't. Why not just get it to use the show? If you are doing a show to show comparison it should all use the same data points and be accurate.

Because nobody is looking up Arcane animated series the datapoints are accurate Arcane doesn't have a series with over 80 million copies sold behind it. If you want to combine wheel of time in general despite data showing exactly the spikes you would expect should we then include league of legends as a search terminology for arcane lol? Witcher uses show and is blasting it out of the water but fine just for your insanity. Oh look it's over double that of wheel even when including animated series which nobody would.

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...g%2F11j5bm0g50

Hell we will even be super duper nice

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...g%2F11j5bm0g50

Oh look still getting blasted with wheel of time no filter and with both arcane and witcher getting a filter

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...Witcher,arcane

Now no filter on everything oh boy that uh doesn't look good for your claims

Oh and 10 million is still a huge amount per episode got s1 was 6 mil an episode.

[rhorle]

Oh and 10 million is still a huge amount per episode got s1 was 6 mil an episode.

Then GoT was cheap. Amazon has spent around 10 million on plenty of shows. I've provided you articles that talk about other budgets of Amazon shows. $10 Million isn't huge to Amazon Studios. It is also hilarious that you say no one would included the animated series of Arcane when the show is the relevant comparison you keep bringing up. Lmao.

[Xath]

Then GoT was cheap. Amazon has spent around 10 million on plenty of shows. I've provided you articles that talk about other budgets of Amazon shows. $10 Million isn't huge to Amazon Studios. It is also hilarious that you say no one would included the animated series of Arcane when the show is the relevant comparison you keep bringing up. Lmao.

I'm saying nobody would search for Arcane animated series instead of just Arcane. Also I showed you what all of them looked like with filtering removed. Even with filtering Arcane was still double wheel of time with no filter and Witcher was crushing it.

[Triceron]

Isn't that what the pattern is? Magic that gets people to do X at Y time and often gives them extraordinary abilities to do so? Or is everyone just assume all the characters get proficient in whatever for the story to work by chance?

If the pattern is doing that then Wheel of Time is more bullshit than I'd give it credit for.


Again, we're talking about believability, and even in the context of magic and shenanigans in the world, that pregnant lady is badass as fuck but also unrealistic as fuck. Just cuz you have a much higher tolerance for bullshit doesn't make it believable for the rest of us.

The books did not declare her to be doing superhuman feats while pregnant. She was tough for being where she was while pregnant, and having to fight for her life, but the books did not have her doing acrobatic feats while facing off multiple opponents at once during contractions. That's a whole different thing.

[rhorle]

If the pattern is doing that then Wheel of Time is more bullshit than I'd give it credit for.

The pattern is what caused everything to happen as it did. How do you think she ended up on the slopes of dragonmount as opposed to some other random spot? Of course the show is over the top but a pregnant person it tip top shape, with top notch fighting skills, and driven by the pattern can do more then the average person like your wife, my wife, or likely any person's wife in this thread. It is like comparing beer league players to world class pro/olympic athletes.

The books didn't declare her doing anything but being at a spot to give birth. There was a canceled prequel that would have covered Tam's journey back to the Two Rivers that likely would have covered this subject. Some things about how it went down can be inferred by the culture of Aiel and her being "lost" in a battle. Do you think she would have just said "Screw it let the mean men surrounding me just kill me with out a fight"? The pattern kept her alive long enough to be found by Tam and given it was a battlefield it means she would have likely done some stabbity stab.

[Triceron]

The pattern is what caused everything to happen as it did.

The pattern caused her to do acrobatic fighting scenes while pregnant?

Then the pattern is bullshit.

Again, you're trying to argue something that wasn't in the books as being perfectly normal even though I'm specifically pointing out that the way the Pattern works in the books is not how we're getting it in this show. They're taking it to an overly dramatic direction. Your tolerance for bullshit just happens to be higher for whatever biases you seem to be arguing for.

The pattern is not an explanation for what we've seen in the show. You're literally just using correlation to make sense of something the show has taken creative liberties in showing. That's fine if it helps explains things for you, but whatever you're explaining is not canonical to the books. None of this happens in the books. None if these acrobatic fighting actions happened, therefore they can not be explained as being 'part of the pattern'. So what you're doing here is no different than if I said she was a channeler and she was using channeling the entire time, you just didn't see her weaving while fighting. It's no different than if I said she could do acrobatics because Rand was channeling inside her womb and helping her fight. I can come up with any number of theories, but none of these are canonical explanations, nor are they explained at all.

That you think the pattern is doing this is simply your interpretation. No different than some radical theory saying baby Rand is channeling inside her womb. There's no way to argue or dismiss this since it's literally subjective interpretation. We aren't talking about what is explained in the books. We're talking about some fictional meta that is trying to bridge back to 'these characters are special because of reasons'. And frankly, I am not looking for an explanation for why she's superhuman, I'm pointing out that the fact she is performing superhuman feats is unbelievable, even if considering how the pattern works.

World atheletes are not even built to perform olympic events while in labour. It's not comparing a regular fighter to an olympic medalist, it's comparing a regular fighter to an olympic medalist who is actively giving birth, and you'd see where the handicap lies in a real world situation. Don't care how much of an athlete you are, you're not going to be able to perform at all while having contractions.. If you're spinning the narrative to 'the pattern is doing this' then the pattern is bullshit, since being in peak physical condition does not imply that you can still perform at peak while in labour.

[rhorle]

The pattern caused her to do acrobatic fighting scenes while pregnant?

The pattern caused her to stay alive until the right moment so Tam could find a baby. The pattern and it causing specific events to happen is literally the entire basis for the story. How do you think a two rivers guy got a heron marked sword and just happened to find the corpse of a queen of Andor that just gave birth? So it is supported by the books that the pattern is "magic that makes things possible". But it turns out "explaining it away with magic" doesn't change your opinion all that much despite you saying it would make it more believable.

I've already said the show went a little overboard with the scene but that seems to have been lost in your zeal to say I'm wrong about the books lol.

[Triceron]

The pattern caused her to stay alive until the right moment so Tam could find a baby.

What exactly are you basing on to explain this?

Are you continuing with your headcanon explanation here? Because again, I believe this is simply your interpretation. And if this is so, then really you're not doing any better convincing me of your explanation when there is nothing to suggest her fighting prowess in the show is due to the 'pattern' at all, nor is there anything you can really source from the books to suggest her having performed super-human feats of fighting-while-in-labour because the Pattern willed it so.

I've already said the show went a little overboard with the scene but that seems to have been lost in your zeal to say I'm wrong about the books lol.

You're not wrong if you're explaining your opinion. As I said, what it seems like you're doing here is giving your interpretation of the books.

We can't really look at the book for explanations on what the show decided to take creative liberties on. It's literally just there to show you how badass Rand's mom was, even if in an unbelievable fashion. That you're going out of the way to try and source this back to the books is quite baffling to me, since it's obvious the show isn't really abiding by the rules of the book whatsoever. If the show wanted to have Tigraine shoot lightning bolts out of her ass, then it can and will. And if you explain to me she could shoot lightning bolts out of her ass because she studied the art of ass-lightning at the White Tower, then sure you can believe that if you want. That explanation isn't gonna make it any more believable to me if I see it in the show, even you imply she studied it at the White Tower in the books.

[jdbond]

I'm still not sure why people are all up in arms about an Aiel fighting like that while pregnant. I would have expected it after they are portrayed in the book.

Because this is what Michael Bay would do. You would think this would generate mass appeal and soon 100 million people would start watching this show but they won't. GoT was based on intrigue, sex and politics where characters had a story of tell, villains were people and show was firmly grounded.

And now you have a show where Director adds anything he likes on any day. Like trying to behead our favorite stark and suddenly city gets hit by a storm, everyone watching dies while he magically floats away on a piece of wood. This is what they did with WoT.

GoT sucked hard when directors decided to "wing" it like every episode of WoT.

So no, a pregnant woman can't fight like that. And you know the worse part, that scene gives zero context to what was happening. You see a woman on some mountain, very pregnant, alone and these guys keep popping up, in one or two, to kill her. Why? Nothing in that scene suggests there was a war. Nothing in that scene has any context.

It was all done to dazzle. SO it is possible that you love Michael Bay and there is audience that loves stupid mindless action but WoT didn't even have that. Cheap CGI, poorly done action if there was one. Even that scene was more "posturing" than actual fight.