[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Corvus]

Its amusing just how not well it is going. Ratings continue to slip. IMDB is down to 7.3. The audience score on RT is now at 6.9 Metacritic user score is just 5.0. And that is with weighting mechanics propping it up. Expect it to go down further.

On top of that, it just hasn't had any traction outside the very small circles dedicate to it. With GoT, people who never watched it knew about it and my feed was always filled with memes that came from GoT. WoT is eerily silent. There has been no traction at all, despite the massive publicity blitz it went on.

And reading all the copium coming out from the echo chambers trying to rationalise it all is amusing. You've got the typical 'its the haters' fault. But it has been spiralling beyond that. You've got those claiming that the end of the EotW book was bad anyway, though in the near 30 years of reading the series I've never come across that before - at most some get confused about whether it was the Creator or not, but that is about it. And even of the end of the book was bad, the fact that the changes they made were worse isn't a good excuse. Then it was COVD and Barney's fault. That doesn't explain the first 6 episodes, and most of the changes in the 8th episode had nothing to do with Barney. And getting into my favourite stuff - most shows have bad first seasons. I've even seen one claim that they don't trust a show with a good first season - they would rather have a bad first season than a good one. Seriously, I can't imagine the type of mental damage you are doing to yourself processing stuff like that.

[Arikara]

So if the Dark One can never win why is he a threat? Just ignore him right. You would never need a dragon to stop him from breaking free of the prison the creator put him in at the dawn of creation. The story isn't about making life easy peasy for people and removing all hardships.

The Dark One is a threat—to the lives of the people living in Randland. The Dark One is not a threat to the Pattern—not because he couldn't theoretically break free, but because he never will as long as people have the heart to face him and beat him back, and his very nature assures that this is always so. A Memory of Light says so outright.

So if it is both then I also can't be wrong. Weird isn't that? You agree with what I am saying while at the same time calling it wrong.

No, I am telling you that it is more complicated than what you are dumping it down to. You're scratching at the surface without seeing what's beneath. Case in point:

Ta'Veren are not bound to the wheel. You can be a Ta'Veren without being bound to the wheel like the Heroes of the Horn are. If Ta'veren are reborn souls then that would defeat half of the importance of the Dragon being reborn. He isn't special he is just a Ta'veren. The books tell us that Ta'veren are understood but even the Forsaken don't know what the Dragon being reborn will mean.

Ta'veren aren't "just" reborn heroes. I'd wager that a ta'veren almost always is a reborn hero... but a reborn hero is not necessarily a ta'veren. A ta'veren is an individual who holds great sway over the current events of the Age, whose actions and fate are central to how that Age unfolds. But not every hero that is reborn need be a ta'veren. This is merely speculation, but I'd expect that in some past lives, Mat and Perrin weren't necessarily ta'veren, and won't necessarily be in future incarnations. Rand, of course, will always be ta'veren, because he is never not the Dragon. For another example of someone who *could* have been ta'veren but wasn't, take Egwene. Egwene is the reincarnation of Latra Posae Decume, the woman who opposed Lews Therin in his plan to strike at the Bore. Was she ta'veren in the Age of Legends? Hard to say, but the fate of the third age rests squarely on her actions. In the third age, Egwene is described as not being ta'veren, but having such great sway on the Pattern that she is essentially the next best thing. As Latra, it was her choice that damned the Third Age. As Egwene, it was her choice that reforged the Tower and ensured that there would be hope in the Fourth Age. So who influences who between the Pattern and her? She has free will, and the Pattern bends around her, but also pushes her back into the confines of what the Pattern views as possible. It is the same with ta'veren, but on a grander scale and with prophesy and fate on the line.

In the case of Rand in particular, of course, he very much is special, because he isn't just "a" ta'veren, he is THE ta'veren, reborn again every Age to define the fate of that Age. Other ta'veren may come and go, but the Dragon echoes across the Pattern in a way they do not. Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren, and left quite the legacy in his wake, but he did not shape the entire Age.

[Xath]

Why do you keep calling Robert Jordan a moron? He's a brilliant writer. Just because you think Rafe Judkins makes everything sound awesome doesn't mean Robert Jordan is a moron.

Damn you sir, damn you to hell shakes fist in anger

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Again. That's a myth.

Bathing =/= washing.

https://www.worldhistory.org/Medieval_Hygiene/
https://www.historyextra.com/period/...-plague-covid/

While bathing was often logistically complicated, especially when traveling or more commonly during the winter months. Still people, even poor peasants bathed, just less frequently. But they still washed their whole body with wash cloths and ewers and washed their hair daily with alkaline solutions and scented oils.

If you really dig into it, you'll quickly realize that the whole unwashed middles ages is bullshit.

The one big reason why medieval Europeans kinda looked primitive compared to the Muslims or Byzantines tho was because they kinda abandoned communal bathing and turned it into a necessarily private thing. Bath houses in Europe were often synonymous with brothels so the Church frowned own it, so Europe often didn't have the extensive bathing facilities with pools and massages and hot water etc that the Byzantines and Muslims had. But again, that just didn't mean that people didn't wash or clean themselves.

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Yeah. But I don't recall any outfit changes between them leaving The Two Rivers and reaching Tar Valon in the series either?

There weren't outfit changes until the borderlands for a reason. Rand's new outfits were described in very vivid detail in TGH

[Mihalik]

If they had the option do you really think it was taken? Consider it took even a minimal effort...and a doctor's recommendation. Sound familiar? Up to even the late 19th century too many never bothered to wash hands. (Typhoid Mary is a famous example). Heck you can't even get people to wash their hands today after using the restroom. Which brings to current day examples...of being cleaner...sure we have examples of "cleanliness" but those aren't the rule when it's optional.

Mate I gave you sources .

People washed themselves and washed their hands.

The sources clearly describe habits, rules and social norms. This is backed up by the archeological record, the fact that homes had spaces and equipment for it, that there was a significant trade tied to hygienic products etc.

Saying that "people only bathed when the doctor made them and all the effort, money and space invested into bathing is just for show" is exactly akin to saying nobody bathes today and all the medical treatises about hygiene and all the money and space spent on bathing facilities is just for show because doctors recommend bathing."

I get it. It's a very deeply rooted and pervasive myth, but it's still a myth. Mostly a Victorian one.

Like the whole white marble antiquity (they painted everything), and the gladiatorial thumb sign (comes from a painting) and the horned Viking helmets (comes from a Wagnerian opera staging), the "Dark Ages" etc.

While the Victorians basically invented museums and archeology they have also made up a lot of shit that remains stubbornly pervavise.

[Shadowferal]

Saying that "people only bathed when the doctor made them and all the effort, money and space invested into bathing is just for show" is exactly akin to saying nobody bathes today and all the medical treatises about hygiene and all the money and space spent on bathing facilities is just for show because doctors recommend bathing."

Not to put too fine a point here but do you really think people are different today? Or do really believe that mask mandates and lockdowns were unnecessary? Too many don't care to wash their hands today, the guy slinging rotten fruit and excrement at the hanged man might, just might, rinse his hands off at the nearest horse trough.

I get it. It's a very deeply rooted and pervasive myth, but it's still a myth. Mostly a Victorian one.

And I gave you references.
The upshot here is we're arguing over the degree.

Your source mentions using urine to clesn laundry.
Chamberpots did exist. And emptied out the window...or if in a city, emptied in the guttered street.
And while public bathing may have been a thing in some places, swapping out the water...really wasn't.
...and should I mention the toilet paper? (Bibles...those thin sheets of paper had a convenience beyond reading material.)
The nonexistent plumbing in a castle had garderobes...basically shitholes that emptied out into a waterway that was sometimes a moat.
Clean potable water needed boiling. But that piece of knowledge wasn't truly known until late 19th century when bacteria was shown to exist. Taking a hot bath...took work to get a fire going and fill bucket after bucket to fill a tub. And seen as a luxury for most. It certainly wasn't done often.

Hmf.. On the other side of the pond, natives did make a regular job of keeping clean, and even germ-free to a degree. Too clean. Unfortunately, their bodies never developed the immunities that continental Europeans had against viruses and such.

[rhorle]

The Dark One is a threat—to the lives of the people living in Randland. The Dark One is not a threat to the Pattern—not because he couldn't theoretically break free, but because he never will as long as people have the heart to face him and beat him back, and his very nature assures that this is always so. A Memory of Light says so outright.

That is not true. The books show the pattern being changed the closer the Dark One gets to breaking free. The dark one can certainly break free and is not bound by the "heart" of the people. If that were the case the the entire events of the book didn't need to happen at all because the power of faith could have kept him sealed instead of a full on assault and "Last Battle".

It doesn't matter if what I'm saying is considered a basic level by you. You've agreed with what I've said while also calling it wrong. That is a contradiction that you need to resolve yourself regardless if you think my explanation is complicated or simple. There is nothing to indicate that Ta'veren are heroes tied to the wheel and always the same souls reborn over and over. There is only speculation that Egwene is Latra and it is never confirmed. There has also never been confirmation that Lews/Rand/Dragon is always a Ta'veren. The books also indicate that it isn't a permanent thing but only while it is required by the pattern.

“…You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won’t accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?”

Rand nodded. “I could live on the farm or in Emond’s Field, and that would be a small change. If I wanted to be a king, though…” He laughed, and Loial gave a grin that almost split his face in two. His teeth were white, and as broad as chisels.

“Yes, that’s it. But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta’veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web—ta’maral’ailen, it’s called—can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta’veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose.”

https://www.tor.com/2019/08/06/readi...to-be-taveren/

[Surfd]

That is not true. The books show the pattern being changed the closer the Dark One gets to breaking free. The dark one can certainly break free and is not bound by the "heart" of the people. If that were the case the the entire events of the book didn't need to happen at all because the power of faith could have kept him sealed instead of a full on assault and "Last Battle".

You are missing the point here.

It's not that the Dark One can't play the game. He absolutely can, and nothing prevents him from messing with the Pattern when he can exert his influence. Absolutely nothing inherently prevents him from breaking free of his prison and fucking up the pattern, turning the Wheel's beautiful designer shirt into a fuckugly Christmas sweater for several turnings. It's that he can't WIN, where Winning is defined as "Breaking Reality, taking Permanent Control of the Wheel and Effectively Replacing The Creator", because that's not actually possible. IE: There is no actual Final Victory for the Dark. It can't happen.

The Last Battle still needs to be fought in every turning. The conflict between light and dark still needs to happen. Light can't "win" by not playing and simply willing the Dark One contained by thinking happy thoughts or some such stupidity, because that's not how the game works. If the Light doesn't at least try to actively fight the Dark, the Dark can still get loose and exert it's influence on the pattern, turning life for everyone into a living hell until it is beaten back again, but the Dark can never do MORE than that. It can't destroy the pattern, or take control of the Wheel. It can only distort the pattern, never break it.

Effectively the closest the Dark One could come to "winning" is if the forces of Light basically stop resisting for eternity, and allow it to have free reign to corrupt the pattern forever. Which would basically never happen, as someone, somewhere will always fight back.

[Thelxi]

I don't care about the book fidelity debate, but from a production pov I'm disappointed in this show. It's similar but significantly worse than Netflix's Shadow and Bone, which was barely watchable. The sets look fake, the costumes look fake, the lighting is atrocious, the screenplay is soapy. If ABC's Once Upon a Time was given a bigger budget, this is exactly how they would waste it.

Done in poor taste.

[rhorle]

You are missing the point here.

The Dark One can win. Breaking free of his prison is winning because he would no longer be contained and would have free reign to do whatever he wants. The creator imprisoned him at the moment of creation and did it outside of the pattern. If the Dark One can never win and can never do more then the pattern allows it devalues the entire struggle and story.

Because there is no point to any of it. The Dark One can never do more then fate, the pattern, decides for that cycle. And the "creator" forces don't have to do anything because the Dark One is never at risk of being free from his prison. Fortunately your assertion isn't back up by anything in the books.

Rothaar

When Rand takes Verin and the others through a Portal Stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

Robert Jordan

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

Question 21 at https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=94

You, and the other poster, seem to be confused about and missing the distinction between a victory and "the victory". The Dark One can win with out breaking free from his prison. It has happened before. If the Dark One does break free from his prison then that is the end of the pattern and cycle as we know it because he would destroy and remake things.

"Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw."

The above is apparently a quote from Robert Jordan at a book signing event. I can't found a better source then a random reddit thread google found when searching on the topic. But it does reinforce the earlier statements from RJ about the subject. The times where the shadow won were a draw rather then a true victory. The light has to win, or draw, every time. The Dark One has to win once (this also matches with the philosophy of Ishamael in the boks) but can still get a minor victory by achieving a draw.

[Mace]

It's actually worse if you think about it. The show is saying that the only way a woman can succeed is if a man fails.

Hate has never been rational, and still doesn't make sense.

Most of these male hating ultra feminist groups (down with the patriarchy, and men are the scum of the earth) are funny because in every area, tehy basically emulate men and want to be just like the. They are basically women playing men. It is so male centric.

Their views on life are male based - value aggression, dominance, strength - they've likely grown up with boys, wanting what boys want and what boys think are cool, and will never do boys as good as boys, but totally resent that and hate that. So they rage and rail.

While it is part of life that some women think this way, when you change a world to define that as the reality and truth, it becomes woefully lopsided and nonsenisical, and for those aware of current social trends and social communism, well, we know it's a culture war with ideolgoies and agendas being preached an promoted al round through media.


The irony iis the messaging of the man-hate filled ultra feminist groups is basically saying, what men are is the best and we want it, but the only way we can succeeed is if the men are rubbish and fail. Yet, in life that is the harsh reality, for roles that mean typically do well in or dominate, women tend to only get to the top when men around them fail.. because for those situations and roles, men are celarly better suited.. but equity says, it doesn't matter if you do the job better, and you are obviously better at it, you must have equal represtntation, even when it makes no sense.. but this isn't equality, it's equity.


But then they never wanted equality, what they wanted was to swap places.. because they are so man focused, they think it's amazing and worth grabbing for.. it's the weirdest most psychologicall broken from of flattery. Love and hate. And no, they aren't all lesbians.


The problem with this show, is how the messaging of the originaal story is changed to this. it would be a different case if this was a new IP that was actually based on that ideology, then I would choose to watch it for what it was, knowing that this is about women being great and men being shit. .but the thing is the whell of Time isn't as a series.. so they are taking all these great stories and books not wiritten by them, that tell a different story, different ideals and messaging and changing them, re-write.. and they expect it to be popular.


I mean seriously, hohw do you expect something that so blatantly spits on one gender, (before we get into the issues and problems of the show), and expect itt o appeal to the world? I bet you most guys who watch this think it's femme show and aren't actually that excited about it.. sure if they're fantasy buffs it's another fantasy show with magic and they'll watch it and go okay, i follow.. but they aren't going to inspire the greate rmajority with that messaging, that type of adaptation and that level of quality.

[Corvus]

The defilement of the corpse continues. Rafe has said it is important to continue the Egwene/Perrin pairing in season 2.

[Triceron]

Hate has never been rational, and still doesn't make sense.

Most of these male hating ultra feminist groups (down with the patriarchy, and men are the scum of the earth) are funny because in every area, tehy basically emulate men and want to be just like the. They are basically women playing men. It is so male centric.

But then they never wanted equality, what they wanted was to swap places.. because they are so man focused, they think it's amazing and worth grabbing for.. it's the weirdest most psychologicall broken from of flattery. Love and hate. And no, they aren't all lesbians.

Well it doesn't make sense because you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

You think that this stems from hate of the patriarchy, leading to an effort to promote some gender-swapped alternative where the patriarchy doesn't exist. I don't think it's coming from hate. I think it's coming from spite. It's coming from schadenfreude.

It's kinda clear to me from Rafe's own tweets that he enjoys pissing off people who get bitter over his changes. He flouts his power and he does little things that get under people's skin, and he openly admits enjoying it. So it actually makes sense that he's doing this because it pleases him to do so. These changes aren't coming from a place of hate, it's possibly coming from a twisted sense of pleasure from other people's misery.



That being said, I don't really condone his actions, since MMO-champion forums are basically a breeding ground for this type of activity. I actually admire him for being able to troll the masses while he has the power to do so, all while profiting off of it and having a big corporation's full support behind him. Literally a professional troll.

[Nynax]

The Dark One can win. Breaking free of his prison is winning because he would no longer be contained and would have free reign to do whatever he wants. The creator imprisoned him at the moment of creation and did it outside of the pattern. If the Dark One can never win and can never do more then the pattern allows it devalues the entire struggle and story.

Because there is no point to any of it. The Dark One can never do more then fate, the pattern, decides for that cycle. And the "creator" forces don't have to do anything because the Dark One is never at risk of being free from his prison. Fortunately your assertion isn't back up by anything in the books.

Just because you know the future, doesn't mean you don't have to live the experience of getting there. The pattern, and this story, is the experience of getting there.

(see plenty of related monotheistic religious discussions on free will and what it would mean if God is truly omniscient.)

[Xath]

The defilement of the corpse continues. Rafe has said it is important to continue the Egwene/Perrin pairing in season 2.

It's certainly interesting to watch a person destroy any possible career they could have after to take a series that has sold nearly 100 million copies and turn it into a failure while being given a 10 mil an episode budget is almost impressive.

[rhorle]

It's certainly interesting to watch a person destroy any possible career they could have after to take a series that has sold nearly 100 million copies and turn it into a failure while being given a 10 mil an episode budget is almost impressive.

Week two had another 663 million minutes watched. (https://www.nielsen.com/us/en/top-ten/). The show is hardly a failure just because you, and others, are vocal about your disdain and can't move on or let it go.

[Xath]

Week two had another 663 million minutes watched. (https://www.nielsen.com/us/en/top-ten/). The show is hardly a failure just because you, and others, are vocal about your disdain and can't move on or let it go.

It's a failure because it's barely on level with Yellowstone which is on Paramount+ which is super super niche in terms of userbase also only costs 5 mil per episode or half as much. Witcher S2 blew it's doors off and Arcane did the same several weeks before. Wait until the new amazon stuff like Reacher comes out as well let alone LoTR.

Also expect a lot of people who are book fans to not bother with watching season 2 of the train wreck.

[rhorle]

It's a failure because it's barely on level with Yellowstone which is on Paramount+ which is super super niche in terms of userbase also only costs 5 mil per episode or half as much. Witcher S2 blew it's doors off and Arcane did the same several weeks before. Wait until the new amazon stuff like Reacher comes out as well let alone LoTR.Also expect a lot of people who are book fans to not bother with watching season 2 of the train wreck.

Again you compare it to other shows when they don't matter. A show doesn't have to beat every show in existence just to be considered a success. You keep creating a whole list of "What abouts" simply because you can't accept that the show has had success despite your disdain and any of its flaws.

And of course it won't compare to Lord of the Rings. Amazon paid $250 million just for the rights and it is rumored to have a $1 billion budget. Those things coming out won't magically erase views of the show that already happened. It is also amusing you mention reacher when people are already complaining that it is flawed since the main character is to tall and jacked. But hey it is going to be a success just because you say so, right?

[Mace]

Well it doesn't make sense because you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

You think that this stems from hate of the patriarchy, leading to an effort to promote some gender-swapped alternative where the patriarchy doesn't exist. I don't think it's coming from hate. I think it's coming from spite. It's coming from schadenfreude.

It's kinda clear to me from Rafe's own tweets that he enjoys pissing off people who get bitter over his changes. He flouts his power and he does little things that get under people's skin, and he openly admits enjoying it. So it actually makes sense that he's doing this because it pleases him to do so. These changes aren't coming from a place of hate, it's possibly coming from a twisted sense of pleasure from other people's misery.



That being said, I don't really condone his actions, since MMO-champion forums are basically a breeding ground for this type of activity. I actually admire him for being able to troll the masses while he has the power to do so, all while profiting off of it and having a big corporation's full support behind him. Literally a professional troll.

I've often wondered why a man like Rafe will do this, or the men in the industry that go along with this.. afterall, nothing is ever done by women alone, not at this level, , if it happens, men have had to allowed it and vice versa, especially when you see male showrunners, execs, etc going along with nonsense.

i ask why?

1. Greed - these guys have been duped by activists who disguise their bad numbers by blaming fans "toxic fandom" , or pandemic for their failures, and then point to the trending metrics and the twitteratti crowd and their bought reviews that it's actually quite popular, so shoudln't be fired, and this si where the money is. Covid seriosly brought them a couple of years to continue on this nonsense, hiding the failure.. and the greedy men, buy the b/s from the execs, especially if he's banging her thinking that this is the best way to get the money and be profitable, or it will be in time. It's taken 2 years of failure, for higher execs to see this is b/s - it's clearly not working - and is exactly why AT&T sold WB and Discovery is clearing house of the activists and the fools that have been listening to them.

2. Perv y and weak /don't care - it's anyone of these, the guy loves chicks so much, and probably the girl he is trying to bang is one of those femmes, so basically does what she says, and/or he is so into the woman, he does everything to please her, and blow her up. In fact he gets jealous of the male characters, sometimes even the actors - because he is weak or doesn't care

3. Avatar/self transference. Like a video game male that plays a female character because she is hot, then basically transfers himself to her.. so sometimes thsee very male feeling female characters are actually written by males, and the actress or female character is basically like his video game character - totally male minded.

4. Spite: yes some of them it's spite, they seriously are moved enough and arrogant enough to be offended by angry fans they actually fuck things up just to spite these people..

5. Cabal/conspiracy/activist/anarchy/social change - some are dead into this, anything that breaks down the cultural norm, whether it's harmful or not, they are so into their activism, they would allow terrible portrayals...lopsided even against their own gender, or themselves, because it's now about tribes and their groups .. and if you're in the activist group, you like an idiot go along "for the group" because can't think for ourselves


Could be any of these or all of these, and so they allow it.. some of these people are rich, but they are not wise. It's easy for them, they are arrogant, they take their luck and the opportunities that come there way, likely because of those that came before them, and think for some reason they are better than others. They don't work hard, they don't pay attention, they just like barking orders, and allow others to actually do the work. Just so happens that now the industry is full of activists that are actually doing the work and these arrogant men have no choice but to listen to what they say.

how do these men get tot hat position, because they knew how to use other people and ride on their talent and success, but the underlings have change, the activists are now the helpers and don't care about profits, only about message...and many of these arrogant men just go along with it, were never qualified to hold their positions and were really only good at being loud and bossy.

[jdbond]

Again you compare it to other shows when they don't matter. A show doesn't have to beat every show in existence just to be considered a success. You keep creating a whole list of "What abouts" simply because you can't accept that the show has had success despite your disdain and any of its flaws.

Thinking like this is the reason we can't fail kids in school, call every last one of them "promising" .....

I hope to not see this world come to life, truly!

We can always appreciate whatever good tv we were given.

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It's a failure because it's barely on level with Yellowstone which is on Paramount+ which is super super niche in terms of userbase also only costs 5 mil per episode or half as much. Witcher S2 blew it's doors off and Arcane did the same several weeks before. Wait until the new amazon stuff like Reacher comes out as well let alone LoTR.

Also expect a lot of people who are book fans to not bother with watching season 2 of the train wreck.

I wonder what were the "viewing minutes" for episode 5,6, 7 and 8. Likely dropping hard.


But as you have heard, even "mediocrity" has a place. It is your fault for expecting something grand.

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The defilement of the corpse continues. Rafe has said it is important to continue the Egwene/Perrin pairing in season 2.

haa..This will atleast give some screen minutes to Perrin. I am shocked that guy playing Perrin has not left the show. Outside of Lan, Perrin has least to do in show. Likely even less than Lan! Stephin had more character development than Perrin.

So chill!

[Shadowferal]

Week two had another 663 million minutes watched. (https://www.nielsen.com/us/en/top-ten/). The show is hardly a failure just because you, and others, are vocal about your disdain and can't move on or let it go.

What will you say when this mess of a show gets cancelled? Because it's at "Cowboy Bepop" level now. It didn't have much in the way of competition, and should have won over a enough of a viewership to justify your saccharin adoration. Indeed, I don't think Amazon has a safe timeslot to release the 2nd season without proving it can't survive going against any competition.