[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Orby]

Not to mention trying to cram in EXTRA stuff that only served to stroke the ego of the show runners because ofc they know oh so much better than Jordan did >_<

I do think this was the one time where the show runners felt they had no faith in the source material to carry the show on its own, and wanted to do their own thing, not that they hated the sourse material but felt like they could do better and wanted to do their own thing, or maybe liked parts of what the story represented and not the whole thing, I don;t like pulling out the 'they don;t care' card, cos despite what we think I do think they do care to an extent just because the show wouldn't be made otherwise. But I do feel there is a superiority complex among studios today where they have to make themselves feel better than the author and think 'how can we make this better than the source material' or 'we are better than the source material'.

The one episode that comes the closest to being faithful to the books is the second episode which is my favourite episode, I explained and gushed here
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...f-Time/page162
Shadar Logoth is the only place that felt better than I imagined from the books. Its true I do feel if the show was allowed more episodes for the season that the Shadar Logoth part should have been a full episode and not 30 minutes as seen in the show. But its the one point where it looked like the showrunners at least cared about it. After that its all down hill.

as mentioned that middle extra episode with their new inserts had little impact on me, the show and did nothing except show me that the show was wasting time. I felt like season 1 probably only highlighted 40% of book 1. At least. The plot just moved so fast it was like taking a tour in a mansion and just exploring the hallways so you can get to the end quickly without looking at the rooms.

wheel of time season one is going to be a mystery to me and always will, I can't really speculate, but its biggest issue was being only 8 episodes. I do think 16 episodes should have been done for Eye of the World.

If The great Hunt is also crammed into 8 episodes I will likely not watch. They cannot do it, I have no faith.

Also I know there are a lot of people who love the show so don't let my comments distract you. You continue loving the show, and I wish I could have also.

[Mazza]

I do think this was the one time where the show runners felt they had no faith in the source material to carry the show on its own, and wanted to do their own thing, not that they hated the sourse material but felt like they could do better and wanted to do their own thing, or maybe liked parts of what the story represented and not the whole thing, I don;t like pulling out the 'they don;t care' card, cos despite what we think I do think they do care to an extent just because the show wouldn't be made otherwise. But I do feel there is a superiority complex among studios today where they have to make themselves feel better than the author and think 'how can we make this better than the source material' or 'we are better than the source material'.

I am not saying they don't care about their show. I am saying that they don't give a shit about the source material. If it was up to me (and it very obviously is not, nor does everybody agrees with me on this) Rafe and co should be sacked and never let near an existing IP again...

The one episode that comes the closest to being faithful to the books is the second episode which is my favourite episode, I explained and gushed here
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...f-Time/page162
Shadar Logoth is the only place that felt better than I imagined from the books. Its true I do feel if the show was allowed more episodes for the season that the Shadar Logoth part should have been a full episode and not 30 minutes as seen in the show. But its the one point where it looked like the showrunners at least cared about it. After that its all down hill.

... except for the people that did the Shadar Logoth design. Because I agree, they sure as hell got that one right.

[Gumble]

If The great Hunt is also crammed into 8 episodes I will likely not watch. They cannot do it, I have no faith.

Oh its so much worse than that.... S2 is supposed to cover nearly all of books 2 and 3. The great hunt will be 4-5 episodes. Just imagine.


As for the first season. I think if they had 10 episodes (and an ounce of respect for the story) someone else could have done it well. Rafe cannot do it, but someone with talent could have.

Here is a episode summary I literally just made thinking of how you could easily split the book up, have important episodes where each one ends in a cliffhanger or action "event". This is so blatantly easy that their inability to do this is astounding.

1- Should have given us a 10 minute prologue where we meet LT and Ish. Then the rest of the episode should have been Winternight. Use episode 1 to introduce us to all the characters, actually make us LIKE Emond's Field and the people in it instead of making it a craphole full of awful people. End on the farm, right as the door gets broken in by trollocs.

2- Rand's travel through the woods all the way to crossing the Taren. Give time for Moraine's speech and actually feel the real leavetakings of the kids (should have really been 16-18 year old actors who could grow into these parts) as they are forced to leave their home. Finish on Moraine sinking the ferry.

3- 10 minutes of traveling and Lan/Moraine teaching. The rest Baerlon. Cliffhanger on them leaving and the Whitecloaks confronting them.

4- Shadar Logoth and the battle prior to it. Finish on the boys and Thom getting onto the ship and Perrin and his horse going into the water.

5- Elyas, wolves, Bayle. Give time for the scenes with Nynaeve and Lan to breath (let us actually start liking them). Let us see the other kids connecting with parts of the world that open it up. End with Fade in Whitebridge and meeting the tinkers for Perrin and Egwene.

6- Let Rand/Mat travel, less made up barmaid Darkfriend and more tenseness between them because of Mat's dagger. Tinkers into ravens for Perrin. End with Rand calling lightning to escape Gode and Whitecloaks spotting Perrin/Egwene under that rock.

7- Rand/Mat get to Caemlyn, meet Loial, Rand goes to see Logan being brought in. Perrin/Egwene deal with Whitecloaks. End of episode Rand falls over wall and Perrin/Egwene rescued.

8- Rand's adventures with the royals that tells us alot about him. Moraine and company get to Caemlyn. Travel the ways. End with escaping Machin Shin and arriving in Shienar.

9- Fal Dara and the journey into the Blight. Let this episode explain more about Lan and his past. Spend time at Malchier and really make us care about Lan/Nynaeve and not make him into someone that would sleep with her and still brush her off. Have the rush through the Blight and end with them meeting the Green Man.

10- Green Man brings them to the Eye, explains more about the world to help with world building. Then have the fight with the Forsaken, the battle at Tarwin's Gap, and RAND actually throwing the power against the trollocs. End with them all riding back through fresh growth of spring to Fal Dara.




Also, I really wish they would not have tried to base the show around Moraine. I get the concept of getting a known actor to try to entice people to watch the show, but they failed pretty hard in that because

A) Moraine isn't in alot of the story, which means they need to force massive changes and cut characters who matter more (Verin) just to use the actress they paid for
B) It detracts from our ability to see the story as the EF5's story, which it IS, because we have to see it from the "big name actress" 's POV.
C) She isn't that well known, or that good of an actor, so I doubt anyone bothered to tune in (or stay tuned in) due to her.

The story should have focused on the Emond's Fielders.

[jdbond]

There won't be a "great hunt" as Rand is already in Falme. Not sure why such expectations? This show is "inspired" by WoT. It is not an adaptation.

[Orby]

Oh its so much worse than that.... S2 is supposed to cover nearly all of books 2 and 3. The great hunt will be 4-5 episodes. Just imagine.

Oh fudge it.

[Xath]

Oh its so much worse than that.... S2 is supposed to cover nearly all of books 2 and 3. The great hunt will be 4-5 episodes. Just imagine.


As for the first season. I think if they had 10 episodes (and an ounce of respect for the story) someone else could have done it well. Rafe cannot do it, but someone with talent could have.

Here is a episode summary I literally just made thinking of how you could easily split the book up, have important episodes where each one ends in a cliffhanger or action "event". This is so blatantly easy that their inability to do this is astounding.

1- Should have given us a 10 minute prologue where we meet LT and Ish. Then the rest of the episode should have been Winternight. Use episode 1 to introduce us to all the characters, actually make us LIKE Emond's Field and the people in it instead of making it a craphole full of awful people. End on the farm, right as the door gets broken in by trollocs.

2- Rand's travel through the woods all the way to crossing the Taren. Give time for Moraine's speech and actually feel the real leavetakings of the kids (should have really been 16-18 year old actors who could grow into these parts) as they are forced to leave their home. Finish on Moraine sinking the ferry.

3- 10 minutes of traveling and Lan/Moraine teaching. The rest Baerlon. Cliffhanger on them leaving and the Whitecloaks confronting them.

4- Shadar Logoth and the battle prior to it. Finish on the boys and Thom getting onto the ship and Perrin and his horse going into the water.

5- Elyas, wolves, Bayle. Give time for the scenes with Nynaeve and Lan to breath (let us actually start liking them). Let us see the other kids connecting with parts of the world that open it up. End with Fade in Whitebridge and meeting the tinkers for Perrin and Egwene.

6- Let Rand/Mat travel, less made up barmaid Darkfriend and more tenseness between them because of Mat's dagger. Tinkers into ravens for Perrin. End with Rand calling lightning to escape Gode and Whitecloaks spotting Perrin/Egwene under that rock.

7- Rand/Mat get to Caemlyn, meet Loial, Rand goes to see Logan being brought in. Perrin/Egwene deal with Whitecloaks. End of episode Rand falls over wall and Perrin/Egwene rescued.

8- Rand's adventures with the royals that tells us alot about him. Moraine and company get to Caemlyn. Travel the ways. End with escaping Machin Shin and arriving in Shienar.

9- Fal Dara and the journey into the Blight. Let this episode explain more about Lan and his past. Spend time at Malchier and really make us care about Lan/Nynaeve and not make him into someone that would sleep with her and still brush her off. Have the rush through the Blight and end with them meeting the Green Man.

10- Green Man brings them to the Eye, explains more about the world to help with world building. Then have the fight with the Forsaken, the battle at Tarwin's Gap, and RAND actually throwing the power against the trollocs. End with them all riding back through fresh growth of spring to Fal Dara.




Also, I really wish they would not have tried to base the show around Moraine. I get the concept of getting a known actor to try to entice people to watch the show, but they failed pretty hard in that because

A) Moraine isn't in alot of the story, which means they need to force massive changes and cut characters who matter more (Verin) just to use the actress they paid for
B) It detracts from our ability to see the story as the EF5's story, which it IS, because we have to see it from the "big name actress" 's POV.
C) She isn't that well known, or that good of an actor, so I doubt anyone bothered to tune in (or stay tuned in) due to her.

The story should have focused on the Emond's Fielders.

See this is the only way you could do a live action version and it would need to be 10 plus episodes a season over a decade. This is why you basically can't do it well as live action it's supposed to take place over a couple of year not a decade. Maybe someday we will get a long animation show of it but I'm not holding my breath.

[Gumble]

See this is the only way you could do a live action version and it would need to be 10 plus episodes a season over a decade. This is why you basically can't do it well as live action it's supposed to take place over a couple of year not a decade. Maybe someday we will get a long animation show of it but I'm not holding my breath.

With how quickly they can film seasons of a show, you COULD do a condensed version of WOT (admit it, there are books you could MOSTLY cut out and keep the story intact)

Thinking to myself

S1- Eye of the World - This is the first major adventure for the EFers.
S2- The Great Hunt - This ends the 2nd adventure.
S3- The Dragon Reborn - Taking of the Stone and killing of Ish is hard to not have as a season finale.
S4- The Shadow Rising - The whole journey into the Waste deserves its own season.
S5- The Fires of Heaven and Lord of Chaos - These are both about leaving the Waste and securing Cairhein and Andor, first militarily and then dealing with the Aes Sedai. This could be combined and end with Dumai's Well.
S6- A Crown of Swords and Path of Daggers - Most of these books deal with Ebou Dar, the march to the White Tower, and the taking and securing of Illian.
S7- Winter's Heart and Crossroads of Twilight - Most of the same plotlines in these. Rand working to cleanse the source while everyone else is in a sort of standstill. Stuff happens but it could be condenced quite a bit.
S8- Knife of Dreams and The Gathering Storm - My personal favorite part of the story dealing with Egwene and her fight of honor inside the Tower, ending with her badass moment of blasting dinosaurs from the sky while hanging out the broken tower walls. These could be combined.
S9- Towers of Midnight and A Memory of Light - This would be a dense season, but this basically revolves around Rand being a christ-figure and preparing for and fighting the Last Battle. It could be a LONG season 12-14 episodes and you could do it.



So yea, you could do it in 9 seasons. Not unrealistic if done in 10 episode blocks.

[Xath]

With how quickly they can film seasons of a show, you COULD do a condensed version of WOT (admit it, there are books you could MOSTLY cut out and keep the story intact)

Thinking to myself

S1- Eye of the World - This is the first major adventure for the EFers.
S2- The Great Hunt - This ends the 2nd adventure.
S3- The Dragon Reborn - Taking of the Stone and killing of Ish is hard to not have as a season finale.
S4- The Shadow Rising - The whole journey into the Waste deserves its own season.
S5- The Fires of Heaven and Lord of Chaos - These are both about leaving the Waste and securing Cairhein and Andor, first militarily and then dealing with the Aes Sedai. This could be combined and end with Dumai's Well.
S6- A Crown of Swords and Path of Daggers - Most of these books deal with Ebou Dar, the march to the White Tower, and the taking and securing of Illian.
S7- Winter's Heart and Crossroads of Twilight - Most of the same plotlines in these. Rand working to cleanse the source while everyone else is in a sort of standstill. Stuff happens but it could be condenced quite a bit.
S8- Knife of Dreams and The Gathering Storm - My personal favorite part of the story dealing with Egwene and her fight of honor inside the Tower, ending with her badass moment of blasting dinosaurs from the sky while hanging out the broken tower walls. These could be combined.
S9- Towers of Midnight and A Memory of Light - This would be a dense season, but this basically revolves around Rand being a christ-figure and preparing for and fighting the Last Battle. It could be a LONG season 12-14 episodes and you could do it.



So yea, you could do it in 9 seasons. Not unrealistic if done in 10 episode blocks.

Yeah but that's 9 seasons for a time period that takes place over like 2 years.

[VMSmith]

My wife and I watch shows a bit slowly, and we came to this one late, so we're only three episodes in now. But we're very much enjoying it.

From what I've read about the show I can fully understand why fans of the books would be disappointed, but from a non-fan perspective it's actually quite good. So I surmise that their intended audience has been non-fans looking for a fantasy story, and they had no interest in appealing to WoT fans.

[Xath]

My wife and I watch shows a bit slowly, and we came to this one late, so we're only three episodes in now. But we're very much enjoying it.

From what I've read about the show I can fully understand why fans of the books would be disappointed, but from a non-fan perspective it's actually quite good. So I surmise that their intended audience has been non-fans looking for a fantasy story, and they had no interest in appealing to WoT fans.

Once you finish it I really want to know if you still think it's good. To me as an entirety it's trash regardless of how far it deviates from the book for reasons that really aren't even that connected to the book.

[Gumble]

My wife and I watch shows a bit slowly, and we came to this one late, so we're only three episodes in now. But we're very much enjoying it.

From what I've read about the show I can fully understand why fans of the books would be disappointed, but from a non-fan perspective it's actually quite good. So I surmise that their intended audience has been non-fans looking for a fantasy story, and they had no interest in appealing to WoT fans.

The first three episodes are the best..... good luck

[VMSmith]

Once you finish it I really want to know if you still think it's good. To me as an entirety it's trash regardless of how far it deviates from the book for reasons that really aren't even that connected to the book.

Yep, I'll be happy to share my opinion. We do watch things a bit slowly, so it may take some time. Also, I do enjoy a number of things that other people hate so my tastes are likely very different from many people in this thread. I expect less from film media than most people seem to, so am more easily entertained. As an example, I grew up with Christopher Reeves as Superman and love Superman II ... yet I still enjoy Man of Steel and list it as my favorite Superman movie, despite some of the issues people note. I feel like every film has issues of some sort (including Superman II) and judge them differently than many people seem to do.

[Nymrohd]

Oh I am not sure the show is objectively bad. It is just horrible for people who love the books and see something that is a very loose adaptation with very little respect for the source material. For me Perrin alone sealed the fate of the show. I have no idea how anyone is supposed to sympathize with him and Perrin and Nynaeve are probably the most loveable of the EF5.

[Smallfruitbat]

My wife and I watch shows a bit slowly, and we came to this one late, so we're only three episodes in now. But we're very much enjoying it.

From what I've read about the show I can fully understand why fans of the books would be disappointed, but from a non-fan perspective it's actually quite good. So I surmise that their intended audience has been non-fans looking for a fantasy story, and they had no interest in appealing to WoT fans.

Glad to hear you and your wife are enjoying it. As others have said, I'd be interested in your thoughts once you've finished. I'm curious, do you see yourselves picking up the books once you've seen the show?

[Advo]

I have to say for so many people who seem to think the show is trash, its generating quite the amount of discussion. I have a feeling the producers would be happy people are still talking about it months after release.

[Nymrohd]

I have to say for so many people who seem to think the show is trash, its generating quite the amount of discussion. I have a feeling the producers would be happy people are still talking about it months after release.

Eh, the people who read the books probably will be discussing this forever. The Wheel of Time is a beloved fantasy series. It has conventions and its own little active forums on the internet.
Really it would have had other forms of adaptation but imo the magic system never really allowed for a good interpretation in tabletop (WotC did one which I own but it was very bad and did not attract much interest). The series could support a CRPG and maybe the series could build interest for something like that. You could easily do a story either in the past (I did a campaign using the TTRPG set in the Trolloc wars that included a male Aiel channeler bonded to a Green sister) or in the near future (we know war eventually breaks with the Seanchan and about the breaking of the Dragon's Peace).

[Gumble]

I have to say for so many people who seem to think the show is trash, its generating quite the amount of discussion. I have a feeling the producers would be happy people are still talking about it months after release.

It remains to be seen if all of those people will hate-watch S2 or if the discussion actually dissuades non-fans from getting into it.

I'll probably see more youtube videos that comment about S2 then I will see any of actual S2. Even then, my expectations are so low that unless they said "Rape Judkins was fired and we fixed it", I can't see myself bothering with S2..... however commenting on how big a disappointment the show was after decades of being a WoT fan..... yea that part isn't going away anytime soon.

[VMSmith]

Glad to hear you and your wife are enjoying it. As others have said, I'd be interested in your thoughts once you've finished. I'm curious, do you see yourselves picking up the books once you've seen the show?

Honestly, I hadn't even thought of the possibility. The only time I've ever tried out the books that a show was based on was with True Blood, and I was fairly disappointed with the books. It may just be that whatever media I am first exposed to is the version that is "real" in my mind.

Right now I'm reading a Drizzt book, a very different version of Beauty and the Beast, a Star Trek novel, and some Roman and Greek history/mythology books so my reading plate is full I may consider the books at some point, though, if the story continues to be interesting.

[bledgor]

Eh, the people who read the books probably will be discussing this forever. The Wheel of Time is a beloved fantasy series. It has conventions and its own little active forums on the internet.
Really it would have had other forms of adaptation but imo the magic system never really allowed for a good interpretation in tabletop (WotC did one which I own but it was very bad and did not attract much interest). The series could support a CRPG and maybe the series could build interest for something like that. You could easily do a story either in the past (I did a campaign using the TTRPG set in the Trolloc wars that included a male Aiel channeler bonded to a Green sister) or in the near future (we know war eventually breaks with the Seanchan and about the breaking of the Dragon's Peace).

Man I feel if they did a tabletop similar to Arkham Horror for the sanity system/male casters, you would have the base for a fun game from just that. A Baldur's Gate style RPG for PC would also probably be great fun.

[Orby]

It remains to be seen if all of those people will hate-watch S2 or if the discussion actually dissuades non-fans from getting into it.

I'll probably see more youtube videos that comment about S2 then I will see any of actual S2. Even then, my expectations are so low that unless they said "Rape Judkins was fired and we fixed it", I can't see myself bothering with S2..... however commenting on how big a disappointment the show was after decades of being a WoT fan..... yea that part isn't going away anytime soon.

I have already decided I wont be watching season 2, I am pretty determined when I say I wont watch something, but I am pretty sure they'll be alot of hate watchers. I don't find that productive of my time. I never got the idea behind watching something you dislike, and enjoying the fact you dislike it so you can be negative about it. I know for youtubers it generates clicks. so they can revel in negativity, but for me, I wont watch because I have no faith in it getting better and I would rather watch something I love.

Not to say the show was the worst thing ever, I gave it a 5/10 in my review of season 1. I liked the casting (for the most part), I liked the acting, the scenes and locations that were good were very good. My problems were the lack of development and connection to characters, the pacing, the amount missed or cut from the books, the magic system and lack of world building. And the pointless new content they added that took me right out of the story. I liked Episode 1 and 2, but it just kept losing me after that and by the last episode I was out for good.

With that said I'll still come here to talk about Wheel of Time, cos its a franchise I care about.