Legion alpha PvP stinks

[Caolela]

The usual excuse "needs a bit of tuning" won't in any way cut it this time. It's a helluva lot more than just a few numbers adjustments.

[Stormspellz]

On topic. WoW PvP is an afterthought and basically a mini game, they even said adding arena was probably a mistake.

They never said adding arena was a mistake, they said how it was implemented and handled was a mistake, not thinking of pvp with the orginal development was the problem

On topic, legion pvp is just horrible, instant gibs all over the place, drain life heals for 90% total hp; and the f'd up part of it; affliction needs it because the instant they stop drain tanking they instantly flop over.

Remove BOS? JK dh tanks can leap across the map twice as fast as a mount

Prot paladin, out healing healings specs as they global you

its just simply madness.

[willtron]

They never said adding arena was a mistake, they said how it was implemented and handled was a mistake, not thinking of pvp with the orginal development was the problem

On topic, legion pvp is just horrible, instant gibs all over the place, drain life heals for 90% total hp; and the f'd up part of it; affliction needs it because the instant they stop drain tanking they instantly flop over.

Remove BOS? JK dh tanks can leap across the map twice as fast as a mount

Prot paladin, out healing healings specs as they global you

its just simply madness.

As for the biggest mistake? There's a lot of them that I think, were ... they just "fell out" of things. One example: I wish the servers were more stable when we launched, of course - there's a lot of that sort of thing. We have a lot of excuses for that - we didn't expect nearly the response - but we can't say it wasn't a mistake. If I was going to pick on a game design thing that I look back on and think was a mistake? We really never designed WoW to be a competitive e-sports game; it was something that we decided to start tackling because there was such a desire and demand to evolve it in that direction, to introduce competitive arenas. I'm not sure that that was the right thing to do with the game.

That's from an interview with Rob Pardo. http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/...6SK7W45mq2y.99

Sounds a bit more than just implementation to me.

[tankbug]

The "make money" excuse has been debunked long ago. Wrecking a game or allowing it to be wrecked as Blizz does in the name of profit (encouraging rampant cheating in Rated by letting it happen; D3 RMAH; etc.) may be good for those making the money, but not for anyone else.

One can make a decent profit and not do those things. It's when greed goes extreme that it ruins things.

Get a better meme.

But it's not wrecked, what are you talking about? D3 RMAH was short-lived, and no similar features have been introduced into any of their games. You can now even pay for wow with gold, so it's going the other way if anything. And which game company keeps their games alive as long as blizzard without asking anything in return, I wonder.. Go badmouth EA for making FIFA every year, or mobile game makers where kids can buy in-game currency for a thousand bucks at the time. Now THAT's greed.

[Caolela]

But it's not wrecked, what are you talking about? D3 RMAH was short-lived, and no similar features have been introduced into any of their games. You can now even pay for wow with gold, so it's going the other way if anything. And which game company keeps their games alive as long as blizzard without asking anything in return, I wonder.. Go badmouth EA for making FIFA every year, or mobile game makers where kids can buy in-game currency for a thousand bucks at the time. Now THAT's greed.

And here's yet another perpetual fanboy that refuses to see the forest for the trees. RMAH lasted a year, long enough for sales and active players to drop like a rock and add to their terrible rep, which is the reason they finally reverted it. IDK about you but a year for something really dumb in a game to me is a very long time. But they made their money anyway while pissing a lot of people off.

Tokens are only to keep people grinding away at garrys, something that most are fed up with doing and never liked from the git. The scheme is the longer they keep you in the game, the greater the chances you'll spend real money in the cash Shop. It obviously also encourages gold botting, wintrading, and selling carries. The same for racials and fake attempts at "balancing" (FotM rerolls). You won't spend in the Shop if you're not in the game -- usually grinding endlessly stupid shit.

Yes, they ARE asking something in return, and if you don't keep paying it monthly, you can't use the game you initially paid for except F2P up to 20 (highly restricted).

And then ofc we have the rampant cheating in rated PvP that Blizz looks the other way on, because those cheaters spend more per person than most legit players do, and they stream which is free advertising for Blizz.

The list is a mile long but you should be getting the picture by now.

[Mafic]

They need to turn the first PVP rows into active talents. Make the damage reduction and PVP trinket base line.

Adding two additional active talents that provide utility would go a long way to create some depth.

[Deshi]

They need to turn the first PVP rows into active talents. Make the damage reduction and PVP trinket base line.

Adding two additional active talents that provide utility would go a long way to create some depth.

First constructive post here! I agree! It would be a good start!

[melzas]

I don't have beta access but I can believe you that PvP is legion so far looks bad. That said, I really don't feel like siding with anyone who thinks game problems lie in Blizzard carrying about money more than about their game.

You know, even if we agree that blizzard only cares about money, they still make better profit if they deliver a game that everyone likes and makes their customers happy, so how is that fact (that they are so greedy, yadda yadda) connected to shit pvp?

I really don't want to sound like a jerk, but this is borderline childish logic. I can understand blaming their greed when they change game to cater to broader audience (like LFR, casual leveling system, whatever) but suggesting that it's the reason why they abandoned pvp is just idiotic.

[Wow]

Holinka failed at pvp again so shocking.....

[PrairieChicken]

The amount of pruning is simply shocking.

Pallys have 3 sec sprint at 45 sec cd? DKs are in 1 min cd with pacification? Charge talents share row with stuns? And yet they still faceroll casters?

At this pace legion pvp will be tank spank who can dps better pve race.

(The complaints about broken damage isn't a problem, they can change the numbers. The lack of utilities are however is a serious problem because it is not so easy to fix)

[Caolela]

I don't have beta access but I can believe you that PvP is legion so far looks bad. That said, I really don't feel like siding with anyone who thinks game problems lie in Blizzard carrying about money more than about their game.

You know, even if we agree that blizzard only cares about money, they still make better profit if they deliver a game that everyone likes and makes their customers happy, so how is that fact (that they are so greedy, yadda yadda) connected to shit pvp?

I really don't want to sound like a jerk, but this is borderline childish logic. I can understand blaming their greed when they change game to cater to broader audience (like LFR, casual leveling system, whatever) but suggesting that it's the reason why they abandoned pvp is just idiotic.

One thing you're forgetting is they've had titles like OW and HotS in the pipeline for some time. They want to make a good initial showing of sales to justify or recoup the money spent; it won't do them much good a year from now if OW is seen as kind of a flop now at release. WoW has made its money long ago, so if they lose people from PvP and they go to newer PvP titles, it's a win for Blizz.

The changing to appeal to a broader audience of casuals is mostly on the PvE side, except for things like LFG (killed oQueue) and Ashran.

[Aceveda]

Yes it does, the amount of pruning and handholding is disgusting. Legion will easily go down as the worst expansion PvP-wise if nothing drastic changes.

They've removed all the abilities/mechanics that required skill/awareness and only left us with damage, damage and more damage. e.g Ele/enha loses grounding & tremor, because..??

Spell Reflect & Grounding totem(for resto) have been dumbed down to reflect/prevent all spells instead of one.

We've got autobubble, and equality, etcetc.

Its not looking great.

[tankbug]

And here's yet another perpetual fanboy that refuses to see the forest for the trees. RMAH lasted a year, long enough for sales and active players to drop like a rock and add to their terrible rep, which is the reason they finally reverted it. IDK about you but a year for something really dumb in a game to me is a very long time. But they made their money anyway while pissing a lot of people off.

Tokens are only to keep people grinding away at garrys, something that most are fed up with doing and never liked from the git. The scheme is the longer they keep you in the game, the greater the chances you'll spend real money in the cash Shop. It obviously also encourages gold botting, wintrading, and selling carries. The same for racials and fake attempts at "balancing" (FotM rerolls). You won't spend in the Shop if you're not in the game -- usually grinding endlessly stupid shit.

Yes, they ARE asking something in return, and if you don't keep paying it monthly, you can't use the game you initially paid for except F2P up to 20 (highly restricted).

And then ofc we have the rampant cheating in rated PvP that Blizz looks the other way on, because those cheaters spend more per person than most legit players do, and they stream which is free advertising for Blizz.

The list is a mile long but you should be getting the picture by now.

Sigh, it's hopeless to discuss with doomsday fanatics, but OK, here goes.

Diablo 3: The problem with the auction house was not that people were able to spend real money on it, but that the drops in the world was fairly crappy compared to what you could buy off the AH for next to nothing in gold, the in-game currency. So it took the fun out of doing content over again, because farming was pointless for a casual player. I never spent a cent on the AH, but spent my gold trading items there instead of getting my rewards from doing content. Boring, not unethical. Anyways, Blizzard got the message and changed it, so how is that a bad thing? What would your "we're like Jesus" game companies do instead?

WoW: Garrisons have been a fun addition to the game, and is a hellofalot more rewarding than grinding dailies and flying around looking for mining nodes. Regarding the gold gain, I just think that's just a little unbalanced, but they haven't put an effort into reducing it. Keeping us playing for the cash shop sounds crazy, why would anyone be interested in that? You can't buy anything really useful. A few pets, mounts and cosmetic items. At any rate, gold botting has always been a problem in WoW, no matter how hard Blizzard has worked to get rid of it, and selling carries is nothing new either. And is the latter even unethical? If so, how can Blizzard prevent it? Also, do you seriously believe that Blizzard uses balancing to encourage people into re-rolling characters/races? That's some pretty tinfoilhatty thinking of you. Maybe they're working together with hardware manufacturers too? Graphic enhancements is just a way of forcing players to upgrade, and Blizzard get kickbacks?

Yes, WoW has a monthly cost, but it's a mmorpg with little incentive for micro transactions. Do you think your few dollars 12 years ago is going to buy you a lifetime of support, working realms, new content? Anyway... Diablo, Hots, Hearthstone, Starcraft and Overwatch doesn't cost a dime, so there you have it.
Regarding cheating in WoW I have never been bothered with it, and I don't really know what you're aiming at.

The only picture I'm getting here is that your hate for Blizzard is not based on reality, but more on conspiracy theories and development directions you disagree with that has been ground over and over in your mind for so long that you now actually think that they're a company of bandits. I advice you to take a break from all Blizzard games and mmo-champ (which has a high blizz focus) and go and see what other companies and communities are doing. See if it's all paradise with happy players getting everything for free forever, maybe that's the norm.

[RelaZ]

The amount of pruning is simply shocking.

Pallys have 3 sec sprint at 45 sec cd? DKs are in 1 min cd with pacification? Charge talents share row with stuns? And yet they still faceroll casters?

At this pace legion pvp will be tank spank who can dps better pve race.

(The complaints about broken damage isn't a problem, they can change the numbers. The lack of utilities are however is a serious problem because it is not so easy to fix)

This, so much.

I'll add to the list:

No Cyclone (Feral)
Burning Determination (8sec interrupt immunity if locked out)
Casting Circle (immune to interrupt if standing in circle, 15sec cd 20sec duration)

The game is being so dumbed down it's rediculous. Not going to buy Legion.

[Caolela]

Sigh, it's hopeless to discuss with doomsday fanatics, but OK, here goes.

Diablo 3: The problem with the auction house was not that people were able to spend real money on it, but that the drops in the world was fairly crappy compared to what you could buy off the AH for next to nothing in gold, the in-game currency. So it took the fun out of doing content over again, because farming was pointless for a casual player. I never spent a cent on the AH, but spent my gold trading items there instead of getting my rewards from doing content. Boring, not unethical. Anyways, Blizzard got the message and changed it, so how is that a bad thing? What would your "we're like Jesus" game companies do instead?

I never named any other game company as being somehow perfect, but nice try to strawman. More excuse-making fanboyism for Blizz, when the issue with RMAH was simple: it let people buy gear to pay-to-win that others did not wish to or could not buy. It was a money-making scheme that ended up costing Blizz a lot of D3 sales and players who left.

WoW: Garrisons have been a fun addition to the game, and is a hellofalot more rewarding than grinding dailies and flying around looking for mining nodes. Regarding the gold gain, I just think that's just a little unbalanced, but they haven't put an effort into reducing it. Keeping us playing for the cash shop sounds crazy, why would anyone be interested in that? You can't buy anything really useful. A few pets, mounts and cosmetic items. At any rate, gold botting has always been a problem in WoW, no matter how hard Blizzard has worked to get rid of it, and selling carries is nothing new either. And is the latter even unethical? If so, how can Blizzard prevent it? Also, do you seriously believe that Blizzard uses balancing to encourage people into re-rolling characters/races? That's some pretty tinfoilhatty thinking of you. Maybe they're working together with hardware manufacturers too? Graphic enhancements is just a way of forcing players to upgrade, and Blizzard get kickbacks?

Why don't you ask the people who have bought the cash Shop items? Yet OTOH, we got by just fine in the past without all that. Blizz is interested in making profit and profit only, and when you have, for example, an intentional imbalance of (the last I saw numbers on it in MoP) over 23% between the highest and lowest DPS specs, when the solution is a small bit of simple numbers tuning, you know it isn't because they can't do it. They've had the game for over 11 years now. A difference of a few percent would be understandable, but not 20+% AND constantly shifting between specs and patches/xpacs. Yes, it is to cause rerolls, just like racials are meant to cause faction swapping at 25 bucks per.

All of this is quite obvious to those who don't walk around with rose-colored glasses on.

Yes, WoW has a monthly cost, but it's a mmorpg with little incentive for micro transactions. Do you think your few dollars 12 years ago is going to buy you a lifetime of support, working realms, new content? Anyway... Diablo, Hots, Hearthstone, Starcraft and Overwatch doesn't cost a dime, so there you have it.
Regarding cheating in WoW I have never been bothered with it, and I don't really know what you're aiming at.

The only picture I'm getting here is that your hate for Blizzard is not based on reality, but more on conspiracy theories and development directions you disagree with that has been ground over and over in your mind for so long that you now actually think that they're a company of bandits. I advice you to take a break from all Blizzard games and mmo-champ (which has a high blizz focus) and go and see what other companies and communities are doing. See if it's all paradise with happy players getting everything for free forever, maybe that's the norm.

People didn't buy WoD 12 years ago for "a few dollars", or MoP, or Cata, etc.; when they were current each xpac was $40.-60. or more, plus sub fees, unless you just this week bought WoD in the Battle Chest (which was just moved there because they did the phony "banwave" and just coincidentally made it cheap for banned cheaters to buy new accts. and Blizz to increase sales). Cheating in certain areas of the game like PvP is rampant. Just because you haven't been bothered by it does not mean it isn't there. Ask those who play Rated, or go check Blizz forums.

Judging from your delusional wishful thinking about Blizz, you're in no position to "advice you" to anyone, (BTW, that would be "advise you") .

[Reapocalypse]

I don't have beta access but I can believe you that PvP is legion so far looks bad. That said, I really don't feel like siding with anyone who thinks game problems lie in Blizzard carrying about money more than about their game.

You know, even if we agree that blizzard only cares about money, they still make better profit if they deliver a game that everyone likes and makes their customers happy, so how is that fact (that they are so greedy, yadda yadda) connected to shit pvp?

I really don't want to sound like a jerk, but this is borderline childish logic. I can understand blaming their greed when they change game to cater to broader audience (like LFR, casual leveling system, whatever) but suggesting that it's the reason why they abandoned pvp is just idiotic.

Didnt they state themselves (multiple times) that numbers/subscribers dont matter to them, or that this wont determine how they design the game?

Because with the simplification of the game to cater to a broader audience the subscribers just seem to get lower, i really cant understand the logic behind their thought process of that, especially when they are trying to make WoW an e-sport (again) while making the game even more boring and CD based than ever before, who wants to watch that? How can they continue to change PvP as a whole in a way that goes against everything every single competitive WoW player has ever told them?

Can anyone list a single good PvP change in Legion btw? i really cant think of one when im honest.

[tankbug]

I never named any other game company as being somehow perfect, but nice try to strawman. More excuse-making fanboyism for Blizz, when the issue with RMAH was simple: it let people buy gear to pay-to-win that others did not wish to or could not buy. It was a money-making scheme that ended up costing Blizz a lot of D3 sales and players who left.

Well, then why are you demonizing them in particular? Or are you making posts like these all over the different game forums?
RMAH might have been a flawed concept in the end, but it's not a crazy money making scheme. Blizzard didn't sell the best gear for money alone, in order to line their own pockets. They offered players to do so, but it didn't work out, so they removed it. Fuck them for trying something different, right? Besides, P2W in Diablo means nothing. It's not a competitive game and gear is easily available to anyone. (Btw, "strawman" is not a verb. If you're hung up in correcting people's grammar, learn the language yourself first)

Why don't you ask the people who have bought the cash Shop items? Yet OTOH, we got by just fine in the past without all that. Blizz is interested in making profit and profit only, and when you have, for example, an intentional imbalance of (the last I saw numbers on it in MoP) over 23% between the highest and lowest DPS specs, when the solution is a small bit of simple numbers tuning, you know it isn't because they can't do it. They've had the game for over 11 years now. A difference of a few percent would be understandable, but not 20+% AND constantly shifting between specs and patches/xpacs. Yes, it is to cause rerolls, just like racials are meant to cause faction swapping at 25 bucks per.

All of this is quite obvious to those who don't walk around with rose-colored glasses on.

Sure, we got by without shops, but who cares? Unless you're very interested in one or more of the very few items that are available there, if won't affect your life in the least. This is a highly competitive market economy, and Blizzard knows that they can't expect players to pay them forever without giving the players what they want. There is a clear connection between the quality of the games and their income. So even the owners, that have no time or pride invested in the products personally, do care about Blizzard's reputation.
You claim that the imbalances are intentional, but where is the proof? You chose to believe that they are evil and greedy, I chose to believe that they are imperfect and don't have the resources to keep up with balancing the classes and races to perfection. Who knows and who cares? I never re-rolled because "my hunter was 5% below my mage on most fights". That's just for the few elite guilds out there competing for first kills, and they mean nothing to Blizzard in race/class change. If you have time for that nonsense, you have enough time to level up a "fotm" character.

People didn't buy WoD 12 years ago for "a few dollars", or MoP, or Cata, etc.; when they were current each xpac was $40.-60. or more, plus sub fees, unless you just this week bought WoD in the Battle Chest (which was just moved there because they did the phony "banwave" and just coincidentally made it cheap for banned cheaters to buy new accts. and Blizz to increase sales). Cheating in certain areas of the game like PvP is rampant. Just because you haven't been bothered by it does not mean it isn't there. Ask those who play Rated, or go check Blizz forums.

Judging from your delusional wishful thinking about Blizz, you're in no position to "advice you" to anyone, (BTW, that would be "advise you") .

Still just small change compared to the endless hours we've been entertained by WoW.
Cheaters hurt the game, and makes other players lose confidence and interest in it. There is no way Blizzard looks the other way. If cheating is so rampant as you say, then the game is so broken that Blizzard have been unable to efficiently prohibit it so far. There is no long term business in it.

Blizzard is NOT perfect, but I refuse to view them as a cartoonishly evil corporation. That's just silly! And if I did, why would I hang around here in "Blizzard Central" talking about how shitty they are? Why not just stick to gaming forums where you respect the company and enjoy the games? Isn't it better to talk about how good things are instead of raging about things that annoy you?

[Caolela]

Keep going with the inventions and wishful thinking. There is of course always reality that had you ever looked in to you'd know about. But it's easier for fanboys to play ostrich - that's why they're called fanboys.

When you have kickbotters, scripters, fly hackers, ddosers, etc. openly bragging about their deeds on a company's own forums for years, yet that company rarely addresses it and when they do, it's mere token bans for PR purposes (like Reckful), then the writing's on the wall. Everyone knows Blizz could get a lot more serious about these so-called "bans" but they haven't and they won't.

Back OT: Legion PvP. As Reapocalypse just said, the devs aren't listening or at least haven't responded to the testers many concerns. We've seen this movie many times before, and it'll no doubt result in what we had after other xpacs - loss of players and subs yet again.

Blizz hopes those disaffected players will go to OW or HotS; they don't need them as much for WoW anymore but they do need to make a good showing for any new title. Ideally, the old WoW players will buy Legion just "to see if I like it", then buy OW when they find Legion sucks. Win-win. When it's seen in that context it's easy to see why they're doing Legion PvP as they are.

Sorry, but it isn't "incompetence" or "laziness" or other dumb excuses. Anyone who thinks that a $4+ billion corporation with over a decade in game design doesn't have their next moves well planned in advance is either naive or willfully ignorant.

[ComputerNerd]

I've read many of the PvP related forum posts so I'm aware that by liking the Legion PvP I'm in the minority.

You may not be the minority, just vocally.
Those happier with something do not need to convince people of their argument through the volume of their voices.
They just get on with playing, and so their numbers are rarely represented accurately amongst the "noise".

[Deleted]

Auto bubble, interrupt immunity, no counterplay talents. Yea it looks so bad.