Diversity isnt a bad thing, but...

[CaptainV]

Okay, lets start by being civil on this topic, since the last one ended in a fire blazing itself into oblivion, lets start with this:

I am a white male straight player, I happen to be disabled with aspergers, and I also happen to be a pretty intimite gamer who likes to play some pretty challenging games, as long as they dont revolve around a tedious grind.

Am I represented in the gaming industry? Probably, do I actually "care" if I am represented?

Not really.

Heres the thing, pro divercity, anti divercity, no matter what side of the fence your on, the reality is, your a gamer, first and foremost, your interest is the game.

If a game has an interesting cast of vibrant individuals, or a cliche cast of predictable individuals, what matters, is why you care about it, you play it because you want to play it, it doesnt really matter what "steriotype" it appeals to or "category" it appeals to, becuase frankly, the notion of such things is irelevent in fiction.

So lets start with the whole, colours/sex/sexual prefference thing.

What makes a character interesting?

The truth is, its not the colour of their skin, the sex they represent, or the sexuality they stand for. It really doesnt matter if they are disabled, straight, gay, transgender, or anything else.

Before and above all else, what matters is, are they interesting as a person. If the answer is yes, then its not because of their appearence or cliche that they are interesting, its beause of their design.

The writers/actors/designers that bring these characters to life make them fun for you to enjoy, you feel like this char is some badass chick, or awesome dude, or some evil douche you come to love even if their also gay.

It doesnt matter what the "Sub-type" is, because that shouldnt "dominate" the character trope. Do you watch a vampire because they're a vampire? No, you watch them because of their character, who happens to be a vampire.

Do you watch a female char because shes portrayed as a strong, independant epic badass that can beat up men? No, you watch her because shes cool, and thats really what appeals.

Do you like the black guy because hes black? No, you like him because hes a badass.

Simply put, your reason for liking these people has "nothing" to do with their physical characteristics, disabilities, sex prefference or gender.

You are only interested in them BECAUSE, they are appealing to you, as a CHARACTER, in FICTION.

Now lets put that into perspective for a second...

Im disabled, mentally disabled at that, do I "want" to be represented in a video game?

No, I dont I really couldnt care if I was, frankly id rather not have someone try to represent my disability as if "someone gets it" because frankly only "I" get me, only "I" understand who "I" am and nobody will ever truly grasp what "I" want to a core T even if they can come close or make interesting chars based on my archetype.

I mean, as an example, Borderlands has a character who happens to be autistic, I didnt even realize that UNTIL someone brought it up in the game itself, and I didnt even 'care' when I learned it because I was too busy laughing at how epic she was and just fun to listen to and watch.

Seriously, the appeal is in what the PERSON is, not what their label, is.

Because frankly? A label? Be it a steriotypical white male blonde hero or a steriotypical strong female heroine, is boring.

Because if they dont have personality, depth, layers, and character development that makes them engaging to watch and grow with, then why do I actually 'care' about them?

See this is where the "issue" is, for alot of gamers, to all you pro represent folks out there.

What we dont really care about, is that very point, we dont 'care' if they are transgender or not, what we care about, is that they're an interesting character that HAPPENS to be transgender but that entire thing does NOT dominate their character development or depth.

And see thats... what gamers really want, and really care about that are anti-represent, its not that they dont like it, they just want people to actually write characters with "ACTUAL" personality, not just "they're gay, and you should like them or your a homophobe".

Sorry but that medium is "never" going to win people over, okay?

Because even the gay people can agree, thats not a good way to get people to 'care'.

So simply put, what we like about overwatch "IS" the divercity, but NOT because they're female, gay, straight, robot, or whatever.

But because they're AWESOME, and every one of them is fun to play and learn about.

So dont think were all homophobes in closets refusing to progress, we just dont want that thrust in our faces and be forced to "care" about it.

[BreakerOfWills]

The question isnt diversity OR interesting characters, you can have interesting and diverse characters. Plus jesus christ is no one else tired of the endless parade of brown haired white dudes? jesus.

[CaptainV]

The question isnt diversity OR interesting characters, you can have interesting and diverse characters. Plus jesus christ is no one else tired of the endless parade of brown haired white dudes? jesus.

Whacha got against brown haired white dudes son? *stare*

Nah, im kiddin' I get your drift, really I do, but again, if your gonna go down that path, at least remember that its the person that matters, not what they look like, because if the character looks like a steriotypical "hero" *soldier 76* thats exactly what they are, now Soldiers a good example because he represents the steriotype, onpurpose.

Likewise, you have crazy chars like Lucio who uses a damn hiphop gun to kill people, how awesome is that?

Or Roadhog, who can make you genuinley take a fat guy seriously as he rips you to pieces with his shotgun/hook.

Or Pharah, who can fly around and blow people to bits while convinently being both female and egyptian, and a badass.

Or...

...Mei.

*Shudder*

So much... cold... Mei....

Bastion

[Pull My Finger]

It's really just a socio-political agenda. People trying to push their obsessions onto everyone else, because they're on a roll, they're bent on conflict and they want everyone to engage. Making characters "interesting" is just a cheap pseudo-argument for it. As you pointed out - wether characters are interesting or not doesn't ultimately come down to their race, sexual preference and all that other bullshit that everyone likes to get crazy about nowadays.

And I'm with you about the whole "representation" thing: what the heck is that even supposed to be? Where did that come from? Who wants to feel "represented" by watching an action flick or playing some fun video game? Some folks seem to just not be able to get over themselves and all the petty nonsense that separates people. They seem to think that entertainment is there to give them some stupid, false sense of validation and something that helps them alleviate their sense of inadequacy or alienation in this fucked-up world we live in.

I like different nationalities and languages and local flavor and all that. But it's cool when it's characteristic, not some stupid put-on social commentary. I don't care about my personal shit and the hardships life has imposed on me ALL the time. Me, personally - when I fire up a video game, I wanna have a good time.

[Tenjen]

an 'agenda" that hurts no one except to make some people on the internet angry for dubious reasons but has the benefit of making character line ups not boring and standardized. Iam okay with this agenda.

There is literally nothing wrong or harmful with this "agenda". you constantly asking self-made rhetorical questions doesn't magically give your argument any weight or meaning. Talking about cheap pseudo-arguements while spouting paragraphs worth of them.

for people on the internet, having anything that isnt a white brown haired dude is "stupid put-on social commentary"

this whole topic is ridiculous given overwatch is supposed to be an international team of elite operates with unique skill sets, not "white american world-police force featuring smurfette" #5670

what makes interesting characters is all that has already been listed plus their ability line ups. not one thing but the sum of those parts and traits without over focusing on any one section. From what we see in the comics and animations, even those with stereotypical traits arent defined by them and all of them have their own motivations and goals. Their personality and race traits just happen to be part of what they are but not quite who they are, which is how it should be.

[Deleted]

The question isnt diversity OR interesting characters, you can have interesting and diverse characters. Plus jesus christ is no one else tired of the endless parade of brown haired white dudes? jesus.

Sadly most people who want to push for "Diversity" only present people with a Checklist. Rather than let the Writers come up with their characters as they see fit.
A checklist wont ever make for good writing. A character is someone you can relate to. Not because he/she likes to fuck X, for example. But because he/she has the right conviction about what he/she does. Which many people seem to just neglect. They jsut want to be "represented" as in "oh, I am gay. So obviously I need a gay character to understand, what he/she is going through". Thing is - most of the time it doesn't matter if a character is interested in any gender. So many people tend to just ignore that part.
Why? Because it doesn't matter.

I remember relating to 2 black characters when I was in my teenage years. One was "Blade" and the other one the Paladin from Diablo 2. Why did I enjoy those characters? Because they were cool, their convictions were clear (and yes, I am not saying I want to run around in a black cloak, cutting down vampires - stay with me here). They happened to be black. Did it matter? No.

It doesn't matter what you are. It matters who you are. What you do.

So Diversity if done correctly? Sure. As a checklist? No, thank you.

You might have noticed - I didn't fully disagree with your post. But I wanted to add my opinion on your point.

[Gamevizier]

it falls onto one thing : does it fit?

I'm from middle east, so before someone accuses me of being a privileged white male I wanted to make that clear. I like diversity when it "fits" and doesn't feel forced.

Dragon Age ruined it for me because at first it tried to portray a semi-George Martin setting in which Ferelden : a country with established characteristics of england (supposedly) gets attacked by evil forces bla bla bla. now Fereldens and in general the human nations of Thedas have their own cultural and ethical characteristics. It's a big negative point for me if for example the status of women suddently gets elevated in DA:I (compared to Origins) or people of color suddently show up out of nowhere in the story to the point that you start to feel the story is being "changed" for the sake of diversity and to please pro-pc people.

It's not that I'm a misogynist or a racist, it's just that to me, a game (or a story) HAS to stay true to it's principles and established lore as much as it can. that's a big plus for me.

I'm ok with the ME setting for example because it's about the future, and most of our struggles are addressed in that setting. the game however, tries to do the same pro-pc shit that they repeated in previous games by taking away the "human supremacist" path that shepard could take in ME1 and (to a very limited degree) in ME2 and turn it into something else in order to diffuse any sort of unwanted interpretation.

Now, back to Overwatch, I think diversity really fits this game because the established lore of the game and it's general theme is about the "ex-agents of a global peace-keeping force" (and unlike what usual hollywood action hero movies try to pretend, "world" does not mean "new york") and thus I think it's really nice to see that illustrated in the game by having heroes of different backgrounds, be it nationality, gender, sexual preference or other stuff.

[Video Games]

The only solution is to play Japanese games since they don't give a shit about sjw and pleasing them. Or at least import ones, anyway.

[Gamevizier]

The only solution is to play Japanese games since they don't give a shit about sjw and pleasing them. Or at least import ones, anyway.

the problem is that they dont really give much shit about releasing those game to international markets either, or releasing them for platforms that are more prevalent worldwide.

[Skroe]

Man I've had a great time playing Doom this past week.

It's a game where you're a faceless motherfucker, a dude, and you can chainsaw other motherfuckers. Or you shoot them in the face with a double barrel shot gun. Or you turn into a demon and rip their legs off.



It's probably the best first person shooter of the past 10 years. And it's back to basics approach is a triumph. It is also a brutal indictment of first person shooter gaming in 2016.

Why do I bring this up? Because it is about what games should be. The fucking game. Case in point, Doom is about the good old fashioned Ultra-Violence. It has it, and plenty of it

The fact we have discussions on the ethnic, cultural, racial, gender, diversity... whatever... background of another first person shooter makes me appreciate Doom even more. Because shooting things matters. Spattering people against the wall matters. Making them wrap their lips around a rocket so many times that they rage quit matters. That you're playing a character that represents your life style does not and never will matter. You're still going to be shot in the face just the same. It's a competitive first person shooter. You're not a hero. You're a moving target.

I'll play Overwatch. Overwatch was fun. I'm going to play it a lot with my guild before Legion. But it is very symptomatic of everything wrong with Video Gaming in 2016. A bunch of people wanting to introduce a bunch of out of context crap. In the end, black, white, gay, straight, we're all red inside.*




*not meant as an offense to people with copper blood.

[GodlyBob]

Whacha got against brown haired white dudes son? *stare*

Nah, im kiddin' I get your drift, really I do, but again, if your gonna go down that path, at least remember that its the person that matters, not what they look like, because if the character looks like a steriotypical "hero" *soldier 76* thats exactly what they are, now Soldiers a good example because he represents the steriotype, onpurpose.

Likewise, you have crazy chars like Lucio who uses a damn hiphop gun to kill people, how awesome is that?

Or Roadhog, who can make you genuinley take a fat guy seriously as he rips you to pieces with his shotgun/hook.

Or Pharah, who can fly around and blow people to bits while convinently being both female and egyptian, and a badass.

Or...

...Mei.

*Shudder*

So much... cold... Mei....

Bastion

The backgrounds of the characters tend to give context for them. It's not THE defining attribute of any character, but it can certainly be an aspect of it. Although it might not be the thing coloring who the character is, it can certainly shade and refine the character. What if Hanzo was only half Japanese instead of full blooded? Maybe he tried to kill Genji to give himself legitimacy in the eyes of his family. He'd still be the classic rhonin who can throw dragons at people, but playing with diversity can really alter motivation.

I agree it should never be the crux of a game, but it's seldom a bad thing. Hell, call of duty might have been just a tad more interesting if you look down after the 10,000th genetic brown dude you killed and noticed there were a couple white guys, like they were using some of the foreigners recruited through twitter in combat. Again, not the main focus, but can add depth to the situation.

[Clone]

Nothing wrong with diversity, people need to toughen up and stop whining about it. If you don't care about representation, then actually don't care about it. Bitching about how representation is catering to the SJW crowd is the opposite of not caring.

[jellmoo]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with diversity. Having a wide range of characters is a good thing. There's also nothing inherently wrong with having less diversity, when it makes sense.

Overwatch is a game about an international group of heroes. If everyone were white males, it would be a ridiculous representation. As it is, it has a diverse cast of characters that represent a wide spectrum of peoples. That's good. That makes sense.

If I make a game about... I dunno... The Arthurian saga, for example, if the cast of characters are white anglo-saxons, it would make sense. It isn't diverse, but it represents a specific era of time in a specific location where racial diversity doesn't make a ton of sense.

Fictional worlds become tricky. There isn't an easy answer. But having diversity in a fictional setting isn't a bad thing. It isn't always about being PC, or pleasing phantom SJWs. Crafting a story with a diverse cast of characters is usually just a plain more interesting choice.

[Frozen Death Knight]

I never had an issue with the idea of wanting characters to be diverse in a game or a movie or the like. What I do have an issue with is forcing diversity for the sake of it. For instance, criticizing a game like the Witcher for having primarily white characters is the kind of stuff that I really dislike about the discussion around diversity. Considering the context behind the Witcher universe and where the source material originated from, it makes no sense to see a ton of different human ethnicities. Criticizing the lack of diversity in stories where diversity does not make any sense to have is the same as criticizing a story from another part of the world for lacking diversity. You do not see many people complaining about Chinese martial arts movies for not having a black person or some other ethnic group, so why is there such a double standard?

As for the diversity in Overwatch, I think it does make sense here because of the international aspect surrounding the world and its characters. It does not come off as forced because the characters are written organically and fit into the universe. However, diversity should not and is not a must for something to be good. If you have a passion to make something, make it the way you want it to, and it will likely not feel forced or pandering.

[Deleted]

the only solution is to play japanese games since they don't give a shit about sjw and pleasing them. Or at least import ones, anyway.

so much this

- - - Updated - - -

There's absolutely nothing wrong with diversity. Having a wide range of characters is a good thing. There's also nothing inherently wrong with having less diversity, when it makes sense.

Overwatch is a game about an international group of heroes. If everyone were white males, it would be a ridiculous representation. As it is, it has a diverse cast of characters that represent a wide spectrum of peoples. That's good. That makes sense.

If I make a game about... I dunno... The Arthurian saga, for example, if the cast of characters are white anglo-saxons, it would make sense. It isn't diverse, but it represents a specific era of time in a specific location where racial diversity doesn't make a ton of sense.

Fictional worlds become tricky. There isn't an easy answer. But having diversity in a fictional setting isn't a bad thing. It isn't always about being PC, or pleasing phantom SJWs. Crafting a story with a diverse cast of characters is usually just a plain more interesting choice.

Nobody said anything about the game being 100% straight white males.
People are only pointing out that adding diversity where it fits is different than forcing it to fit.

[Hell-Nicø]

People asking to be represented in videogames because they can't identify to characters otherwise are the most racist/xenophobe/sexist, egocentric and devoided of imagination person that exist.

The inability to relate to a character because he's not YOU is the mark of sociopath.

I play a fucking Dreanei in wow and I find it awesome. I play what's needed in a comp in hots and overwatch, and I love heroes for their look and gameplay I don't NEED to be these characters to love them.

[Pull My Finger]

an 'agenda" that hurts no one

Sure, it hurts no one, it's too wimpy to hurt. It's more like warm, moisty air coming from someone's armpit. Kinda freaks you out and you don't want it near you.

[Tenjen]

Sure, it hurts no one, it's too wimpy to hurt. It's more like warm, moisty air coming from someone's armpit. Kinda freaks you out and you don't want it near you.

*golfclap* way to go with those discussion skills.

[DrMcNinja]

The question isnt diversity OR interesting characters, you can have interesting and diverse characters. Plus jesus christ is no one else tired of the endless parade of brown haired white dudes? jesus.

I feel slightly offended. It's not my fault genetics stripped me from my beautiful, white blonde hair when I was 3

[Frozen Death Knight]

That is probably fueled by that fact that you are represented in the game.

That is just nonsense. I do not play games or watch movies to feel represented. Many of my favourite characters in fiction are not based on them being a white heterosexual male. They are interesting because they are fleshed out characters and/or make an emotional connection where you understand their strengths, flaws, struggles, and goals. Heck, sometimes they do not even need to be or act human to be interesting.

Feeling represented in a game or a movie is so far down my priority list. I hardly think I am alone on this either.