1. #7721
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    Sure, if you consider completely gutting an ability to be a shadow of its former self to be "retaining" an ability I don't have much to disagree with.
    Hook is still pretty good though actually. It's more responsive now, and you're still able to turn and drop people off of cliffs while using it
    It's not nearly a "Shadow of its former self", it definitely didn't deserve to grab people around walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Player Twelve View Post
    Roadhog is shit tier. If I see roadhog on the field when playing soldier it's free ult charge for me.
    His tier is irrelevant, but he's not bad at all.

  2. #7722
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    His tier is irrelevant, but he's not bad at all.
    He is bad. He's only good against people who don't know how to position themselves and even then you can get killed by the ones you hook if they have a somewhat decent aim.

  3. #7723
    Quote Originally Posted by Player Twelve View Post
    He is bad. He's only good against people who don't know how to position themselves and even then you can get killed by the ones you hook if they have a somewhat decent aim.
    https://www.overbuff.com/heroes

    Try again.
    Set it to Grandmaster, and last month.

    Or whatever the hell you want actually, no matter what Roadhog has a decent pick rate and positive win rate.

  4. #7724
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Hook is still pretty good though actually. It's more responsive now, and you're still able to turn and drop people off of cliffs while using it
    It's not nearly a "Shadow of its former self", it definitely didn't deserve to grab people around walls.



    His tier is irrelevant, but he's not bad at all.
    He never grabbed people around walls, he grabbed people in los and if there momentum carried them around the wall they were drug back, because he grabbed them, IN LOS.

    I don't know why I am arguing this, when he was in his prime I was a Rein main, he was literally my hard counter and I had 0 problems with his concept. The only players who have a problem with his old hook are those that have terrible positioning.

    The only reason he isn't unplayable is because Dvas Matrix was nerfed hard.

  5. #7725
    Quote Originally Posted by Player Twelve View Post
    Roadhog is shit tier. If I see roadhog on the field when playing soldier it's free ult charge for me.
    Take it from someone who has done bronze to masters 2x, plat to masters 1x.

    Plat is the hardest tier to get out of, everyone is a know it all, the teamwork is terrible to passable and mechanical skills of individuals runs the gambit from horrid to good.

  6. #7726
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    https://www.overbuff.com/heroes

    Try again.
    Set it to Grandmaster, and last month.

    Or whatever the hell you want actually, no matter what Roadhog has a decent pick rate and positive win rate.
    I know you weren't responding to me, and I don't agree with the other poster saying he is shit tier. But that link REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY hurts everyone of the positive arguments about mercy here.

    Like how are you going to argue with a hero that pretty much has double the pick rate of anything else across the board?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    Take it from someone who has done bronze to masters 2x, plat to masters 1x.

    Plat is the hardest tier to get out of, everyone is a know it all, the teamwork is terrible to passable and mechanical skills of individuals runs the gambit from horrid to good.
    And plat is actually all the way from 2500-3400 in reality

  7. #7727
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    I know you weren't responding to me, and I don't agree with the other poster saying he is shit tier. But that link REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY hurts everyone of the positive arguments about mercy here.

    Like how are you going to argue with a hero that pretty much has double the pick rate of anything else across the board?
    I already said why I think Mercy is so high.

    She's easier to grasp than most healers for the basics, and she has good healing output.

    I mean, up until Moira, she was the only good choice for solo healing. Ana is screwed over by barriers far too much.

    That's not to say Mercy isn't really good, because she is. But she quite literally had no competition for dedicated healing. Tack the rez onto that and yeah, you're gonna have a healer that's picked more often than most, since you do need a healer every game.

    Roadhog at least has competition in regards to bruiser tanks, like D.Va and Zarya.

  8. #7728
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I already said why I think Mercy is so high.

    She's easier to grasp than most healers for the basics, and she has good healing output.

    I mean, up until Moira, she was the only good choice for solo healing. Ana is screwed over by barriers far too much.

    That's not to say Mercy isn't really good, because she is. But she quite literally had no competition for dedicated healing. Tack the rez onto that and yeah, you're gonna have a healer that's picked more often than most, since you do need a healer every game.

    Roadhog at least has competition in regards to bruiser tanks, like D.Va and Zarya.
    Well, Moira is a thing now, and if you look at recent pick rates Mercy is still dominating. So it's not competition for dedicated healing thing.

    The higher up in skill level you go, the higher the pick rate of Mercy. So it's not an easier to grasp thing.

    It is only the Res.
    Last edited by Ravex; 2018-01-06 at 06:02 PM.

  9. #7729
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    Well, Moira is a thing now, and if you look at recent pick rates Mercy is still dominating. So it's not competition for dedicated healing thing.

    The higher up in skill level you go, the higher the pick rate of Mercy. So it's not an easier to grasp thing.

    It's is only the Res.
    People don't see a reason to shake up right now and switch to Moira as the healer.

    The rez is part of it no doubt, but unless you see something like when they nerfed Ana and drastically buffed Mercy several times, I doubt you'll see much change. People have it set in their mind that you need Mercy.

    Also, as pointed out in the other thread, Mercy has a farther heal range than Moira does.

  10. #7730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    That is honestly the worst comparison I've ever seen.
    >complains about me saying Mercy is so much better than every other support
    >complains about analogy and calls it stupid despite being the same line of logic used to say other healers were better than mercy before she was changed

    well i'm gonna have to put on my best jeff kaplan impression and say you really got me on that one

  11. #7731
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    >complains about me saying Mercy is so much better than every other support
    >complains about analogy and calls it stupid despite being the same line of logic used to say other healers were better than mercy before she was changed

    well i'm gonna have to put on my best jeff kaplan impression and say you really got me on that one
    You're comparing Bastion to attackers.

    Bastion is not an attacking character. It's as simple as that. You had an awful comparison, and now you're trying to think that comparison within the role is equal to that?

    I'll humor you more though.

    Bastion isn't mobile at all for his maximum output.
    His self heal is slow and requires him to not take any other action.
    He has a giant weak spot on his back that any flanker can take care of if he tries using turret mode aggressively.
    He requires a barrier to be able to sit safely, which requires babysitting.

    Compare that to Soldier, who can do just about the same damage as Recon mode Bastion, who can drop his heal and continue to attack, while also having an ability to quickly reposition and also to do burst damage to a target.

    Also I'm not even talking about valk changes, I'm talking about original Mercy, who had to stay still to cast her ult in the first place.

    If you want to actually try discussing this with facts and reason rather than "I don't like her" and false equivalencies though, let me know.
    Last edited by Jester Joe; 2018-01-06 at 06:12 PM.

  12. #7732
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    People don't see a reason to shake up right now and switch to Moira as the healer.

    The rez is part of it no doubt, but unless you see something like when they nerfed Ana and drastically buffed Mercy several times, I doubt you'll see much change. People have it set in their mind that you need Mercy.

    Also, as pointed out in the other thread, Mercy has a farther heal range than Moira does.
    People don't see a reason to shake up?

    Like they didn't when Ana came out?

    That is purely your uneducated opinion.

    The res isn't PART of it, it's the only reason.

    Why grab a healer who can only try to prevent death when you can grab one that can try to prevent AND negate it.
    Last edited by Ravex; 2018-01-06 at 06:14 PM.

  13. #7733
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    People don't see a reason to shake up?

    Like they didn't when Ana came out?

    That is purely your uneducated opinion.

    The res isn't PART of it, it's the only reason.

    Why grab a healer who can only try to prevent death when you can grab one that and try to prevent AND negate it.
    You're ignoring the "unless you see something like when they nerfed Ana and drastically buffed Mercy several times" part.

    Also Ana did fly under the radar for a bit, but her ult was ridiculously overpowered at the time, so people dropped everything to use her.

    Make Moira's ult uninterruptable, make allies in it go faster, or something and I'd be willing to bet you'd see similar.

  14. #7734
    Banned Gandrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    You're comparing Bastion to attackers.
    i compared bastion to every damage hero in the game the same way you compared mercy minus valk to other supports

    and i dont know what this rambling about attackers is, mercy is op because teams without her are disadvantaged unless they are significantly better than the players they are playing against. to argue against this is futile - ryujehong is the best ana in the world, won OWWC for SK, and had to play Mercy. there is no other reason, this is the only reason. it's very simple; 8v8 is better than 6v8.

  15. #7735
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    You're ignoring the "unless you see something like when they nerfed Ana and drastically buffed Mercy several times" part.

    Also Ana did fly under the radar for a bit, but her ult was ridiculously overpowered at the time, so people dropped everything to use her.

    Make Moira's ult uninterruptable, make allies in it go faster, or something and I'd be willing to bet you'd see similar.
    I never ignored it. It just has nothing to do what we are talking about.

    Your arguing that Moira isn't an alternative to Mercy because people don't see the need to shake things up.

    Ana did this on release.

    Moira is pretty on par with old Ana. I'd still give the edge to old Ana.

    Current Mercy is TIER SSSSSSSSSSSS compared to old Mercy.

    Hence the no change.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    i compared bastion to every damage hero in the game the same way you compared mercy minus valk to other supports

    and i dont know what this rambling about attackers is, mercy is op because teams without her are disadvantaged unless they are significantly better than the players they are playing against. to argue against this is futile - ryujehong is the best ana in the world, won OWWC for SK, and had to play Mercy. there is no other reason, this is the only reason. it's very simple; 8v8 is better than 6v8.
    Yea, always a bad sign when people try using the subsets to compare heroes. There are 3, DPS, Tanks, and Healers. Nothing else. Really doesn't matter what it says in game. Looking at you Sym, Junk, Hanzo, and Widow.
    Last edited by Ravex; 2018-01-06 at 06:28 PM.

  16. #7736
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    i compared bastion to every damage hero in the game the same way you compared mercy minus valk to other supports

    and i dont know what this rambling about attackers is, mercy is op because teams without her are disadvantaged unless they are significantly better than the players they are playing against. to argue against this is futile - ryujehong is the best ana in the world, won OWWC for SK, and had to play Mercy. there is no other reason, this is the only reason. it's very simple; 8v8 is better than 6v8.
    Bastion isn't a damage hero. He's a defense hero.

    It would be like trying to compare Roadhog and Reaper. They both have similar guns after all, and they're both based around getting up in people's faces!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    I never ignored it. It just has nothing to do what we are talking about.

    Your arguing that Moira isn't an alternative to Mercy because people don't see the need to shake things up.

    Ana did this on release.

    Moira is pretty on par with old Ana. I'd still give the edge to old Ana.

    Current Mercy is TIER SSSSSSSSSSSS compared to old Mercy.

    Hence the no change.
    Old Ana enabled things like Reinhardt wrecking an entire team alone.

    Current Moira does not do that. Hence, you're not going to see that drastic shake up. Also hence why I said it does matter that I said that, because it was kinda my point.
    Moira is not as OP as Ana was with her original ult, so she didn't instantly replace Mercy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    Yea, always a bad sign when people try using the subsets to compare heroes. There are 3, DPS, Tanks, and Healers. Nothing else. Really doesn't matter what it says in game. Looking at you Sym, Junk, Hanzo, and Widow.
    Pretty sure I said far more than that, but okay. You can ignore it just like they are.

    The DPS output of Bastion isn't the same in any way, shape, or form as the HPS output of ANY healer. It's not even comparable, ergo, it's silly to try to.
    Last edited by Jester Joe; 2018-01-06 at 06:34 PM.

  17. #7737
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Bastion isn't a damage hero. He's a defense hero.

    It would be like trying to compare Roadhog and Reaper. They both have similar guns after all, and they're both based around getting up in people's faces!



    Old Ana enabled things like Reinhardt wrecking an entire team alone.

    Current Moira does not do that. Hence, you're not going to see that drastic shake up. Also hence why I said it does matter that I said that, because it was kinda my point.
    Moira is not as OP as Ana was with her original ult, so she didn't instantly replace Mercy.




    Pretty sure I said far more than that, but okay. You can ignore it just like they are.

    The DPS output of Bastion isn't the same in any way, shape, or form as the HPS output of ANY healer. It's not even comparable, ergo, it's silly to try to.
    You are wrong about Ana.

    But your now bringing up/adding things that have nothing to do with the point since you have run out of legitimate things to say.

    I'm satisfied.

    Been fun.

  18. #7738
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    You are wrong about Ana.

    But your now bringing up/adding things that have nothing to do with the point since you have run out of legitimate things to say.

    I'm satisfied.

    Been fun.
    Try actually backing that up then, rather than just saying "you are wrong".

    Ana was nerfed several times, and then Mercy's pick rate started increasing as she got buffed.

    There is nothing wrong about that information. The only one who's running out of legitimate things to say is the one suddenly backing off, and if you think what I said has "nothing to do with the point", then try rephrasing yourself, because all I said was in response to your claim that "Ana instantly took over upon release" as if that's relevant to Moira who's far more balanced than Ana was.


    Also, to tack on as more-

    -Ana's ultimate was broken as hell when used on Reinhardt, along with Genji and some others too (Beyblade anyone?)
    -Ana's HPS while using her grenade was sickeningly high, while her grenade itself had a huge splash.
    -Ana's damage output was also nothing to sneeze at, being able to snipe out other players and healing the entire team at nearly the same time.
    Last edited by Jester Joe; 2018-01-06 at 07:11 PM.

  19. #7739
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Try actually backing that up then, rather than just saying "you are wrong".

    Ana was nerfed several times, and then Mercy's pick rate started increasing as she got buffed.

    There is nothing wrong about that information. The only one who's running out of legitimate things to say is the one suddenly backing off, and if you think what I said has "nothing to do with the point", then try rephrasing yourself, because all I said was in response to your claim that "Ana instantly took over upon release" as if that's relevant to Moira who's far more balanced than Ana was.
    My point still stands.

    You said she was picked for her ult. I'm sure the fact that her sleep dart, anti heal, and raw damage had nothing to do with it. But yea, your not wrong. (In before "well that's part of it too")

    "Ana was nerfed several times, then Mercy's pick rate started dincreasing as she got buffed" - Nothing to do what we are talking about.

    "Bastion is a defence hero" - seriously?

    All while the point of the conversation is res is broken.

    You're right you are completely on point and all your side points that have nothing to do with it are also 100% correct.

    Edit: Nice edit, can I go back to all my posts to add points also?
    Last edited by Ravex; 2018-01-06 at 07:15 PM.

  20. #7740
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    My point still stands.

    You said she was picked for her ult. I'm sure the fact that her sleep dart, anti heal, and raw damage had nothing to do with it. But yea, your not wrong.
    I never said that was all she was picked for. I said her ult was so ridiculously strong, it's what caused the meta to be formed around her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    "Ana was nerfed several times, then Mercy's pick rate started dincreasing as she got buffed" - Nothing to do what we are talking about.
    It does, people love to act like Mercy was always a "MUST HAVE" since the start of the game. Also, the point was you were claiming if Mercy wasn't broken, Moira would knock her out, like Ana knocked out other healers.

    My point was Ana was OP, that's why she did that. Moira is not, so there's no big shakeup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    "Bastion is a defence hero" - seriously?
    Yes. That's irrelevant to my conversation with you though, not sure why you're bringing that up while trying to peg me as the one bringing up irrelevant info.

    Take that issue up with Gandrake for bringing up Bastion in regards to Mercy to begin with if you have an issue with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    All while the point of the conversation is res is broken.
    My point was rez isn't the only reason Mercy is picked. Remove rez and she'll still be picked. I won't deny that, but that doesn't mean we should keep taking a bat to rez as a mechanic and hope it fixes it.
    Tune down her ult duration, yes.
    Increase the amount of ult charge she needs too.

    And here's controversial, increase the range at which you can rez someone, it feels far too awful right now. Keep the snare and heck, maybe increase it to 2 seconds of a cast. Maybe make damage break it, but not put it on CD (Like Sombra's hack).

    And most importantly, in regards to the newest nerf, either take away the extra charge upon ulting, or the instant cast rez, not BOTH though. That was overkill.
    Personally I'd go in favor of removing the instant rez. Having her cast two rezzes in a row should punish the other team for not killing the stationary floating lightbulb with a giant "KILL ME" sign on her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    You're right you are completely on point and all your side points that have nothing to do with it are also 100% correct.
    Maybe now you understand a bit better after this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravex View Post
    Edit: Nice edit, can I go back to all my posts to add points also?
    Are you really going to be petty about an edit that went out as you quoted me? Check the time stamp, don't be "that guy"

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