So how are your games going lately? [megathread]

[Kasierith]

That assumes someone is going to put in the time and dedication.

I could just spend all my time watching tournaments and indepth guides, and never touch the game because it doesn't interest me.
The assumption that someone is going to put the effort in to grinding just because they have the knowledge is just that, an assumption.

Also assumes the person enjoys it. I mean, I hate D.Va, but I know how to play her. And I do pretty well with her because of that. But I literally hate playing her. So I'm not going to force myself to play her to climb.

Whether or not you enjoy it has literally no relevance to any point in my argument, so I'm not exactly sure why you brought it up. I would consider it to be nearly axiomatic that all other things equal, more experience would make one player better than another player. And since with you all other things are equal when compared to yourself, you with hundreds of hours of practice to rise to master (if you chose to do so) would have more knowledge of the game than you in your current state.

I mean, there's a lot to read here, but...it's still assumptions that I don't already watch these things, and follow it.

The professional community outpacing the development team is something that happens in every single competitive environment. If you don't understand that, no, you don't really watch that many dev videos. You saw it in WoW all the time with the dev team and community team being steamrolled by top competitive players (and then respond by having fun with the game code).

And they already said flat out while Roadhog was nerfed, it wasn't just because they didn't take into account landing hook after hook, it was because he felt bad to be yanked around corners, and his hook felt unfair.

Notice his one shot wasn't nerf immediately until people kept rallying about "getting it removed", much like they are Mercy right now.

I do not particularly enjoy retreading arguments I have already made. If you want to know my response to this, read my previous post more carefully, as I have already fully accounted for yours.

There's nothing odd about it. It's a statement of fact, nothing about "being good" means you don't have the knowledge of the game. You claim the professional community "outstrips the skill", but yet again, the skill is not just the knowledge. And even then, it's completely irrelevant to THIS specific situation, because what you're talking about is the type of players who are in a private discord with the Overwatch crew, giving suggestions and feedback, AKA the pro teams.

It's not anyone on this site, that's for sure, nor is it going to be the casual forum goer in general. So it's perfectly reasonable considering the situation here to say "Ranking doesn't matter" when it comes to knowledge of the game. And I really don't see the point to try to stick up for people trying to smother opinions by saying "lol you're bronze" even when it's completely false.

And yes, Jeff's knowledge of the game does matter, he can't be some useless robot that just accepts what any pro player comes to him about, otherwise he'd just be fired and replaced with said pro player. He has to be able to pick and choose what complaints are valid, and compare that to what information he has, and come to a conclusion based on that.

The skill is mechanics, game sense, knowledge, strategy, how to work as a team, how to read your opponents, ensuring that your activities are objective driven and not focused on outcomes irrelevant to the win/lose/draw condition of the game like gathering gold medals, and other such factors. Many of which you need to actually play and experience first hand to get an innate sense of. It seems you are saying that the only difference between someone who reads a lot of guides and a GM is mechanical skills. I absolutely disagree with this, and anyone who has risen the ranks in any competitive game is going to disagree as well.

As for managers needing to have a high level of knowledge of the game.. this simply isn't how management works. He has to have some baseline knowledge, yes, but when you go out into the real world and look at the highest levels of management, even for extremely effective companies, the managers are not there because they are the technical experts. They're there because they are in charge of the technical experts. If I were the president and I found out that Kaplan was spending his time learning each hero in depth by playing them for hours a day, I would be pulling him aside to address priorities because he's being paid to manage the team.

If you aren't overall familiar with how a successful manager fits into a team, I strongly suggest you read The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, by Patrick Lyncioni. It's a very short read, but it outlines how management works in a pretty relateable format that fits into how large teams actually work in the real world quite nicely. Because it honestly feels like you don't have the foundation of knowledge for what exactly Kaplan's job is and how it fits into the Blizzard team.

[Jester Joe]

Whether or not you enjoy it has literally no relevance to any point in my argument, so I'm not exactly sure why you brought it up. I would consider it to be nearly axiomatic that all other things equal, more experience would make one player better than another player. And since with you all other things are equal when compared to yourself, you with hundreds of hours of practice to rise to master (if you chose to do so) would have more knowledge of the game than you in your current state.

...it has no relevancy, yet you're connecting already "playtime" with "knowledge of the game".

That is my point. You don't NEED to play the game even to have indepth knowledge, you just have to study it. There is no "being better", and I have no idea why you're bring that up when the debate is about "knowledge", not "skill", and you're confusing the two as one.

The professional community outpacing the development team is something that happens in every single competitive environment. If you don't understand that, no, you don't really watch that many dev videos. You saw it in WoW all the time with the dev team and community team being steamrolled by top competitive players (and then respond by having fun with the game code).

You're making it sound like every single situation has always been "The development team did not know as much!", when it's simply not true. There's plenty of times they made tweaks and adjustments based on what they knew that even the pros did not know.

Edit- Oh jeez, I re-read this and you're literally still arguing about "skill=knowledge". The devs can suck at playing the game, that doesn't mean they don't KNOW the game. I mean, you stick a 40+ year old against a 20 and see how the reaction difference is. I've never once argued that the devs can outplay the professionals, and for harping on me about "irrelevancy", it seems odd to try to bring up their execution again.

I do not particularly enjoy retreading arguments I have already made. If you want to know my response to this, read my previous post more carefully, as I have already fully accounted for yours.

I'm not asking for your response to it, I'm correcting your statement.

Developer Comments: The hook should now feel more consistent for Roadhog players, but it should also feel more reasonable to his enemies, as they cannot be hooked or pulled around corners anymore.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...ic/20752795395

Nothing about it is saying he was changed because they didn't expect players to have a good hook accuracy. It was because it felt bad to play against. I'm not quite sure debating that they didn't expect pro players to be pro is really a point.

The skill is mechanics, game sense, knowledge, strategy, how to work as a team, how to read your opponents, ensuring that your activities are objective driven and not focused on outcomes irrelevant to the win/lose/draw condition of the game like gathering gold medals, and other such factors. Many of which you need to actually play and experience first hand to get an innate sense of. It seems you are saying that the only difference between someone who reads a lot of guides and a GM is mechanical skills. I absolutely disagree with this, and anyone who has risen the ranks in any competitive game is going to disagree as well.

I'm not saying that's the only difference, I'm saying you can't say "Lol you're x rank, so you don't know what you're talking about". The fact that I even have to try to clarify this is a bit disturbing for a competitive community, as it should be pretty reasonable that someone can know the game in and out while being unable to actually perform it.

I mean, you could easily be a Grandmaster level player skill wise, but be unable to work with others and end up Plat because of it. None of this changes my point that "ranked=/=knowledge".

As for managers needing to have a high level of knowledge of the game.. this simply isn't how management works. He has to have some baseline knowledge, yes, but when you go out into the real world and look at the highest levels of management, even for extremely effective companies, the managers are not there because they are the technical experts. They're there because they are in charge of the technical experts. If I were the president and I found out that Kaplan was spending his time learning each hero in depth by playing them for hours a day, I would be pulling him aside to address priorities because he's being paid to manage the team.

If you aren't overall familiar with how a successful manager fits into a team, I strongly suggest you read The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, by Patrick Lyncioni. It's a very short read, but it outlines how management works in a pretty relateable format that fits into how large teams actually work in the real world quite nicely. Because it honestly feels like you don't have the foundation of knowledge for what exactly Kaplan's job is and how it fits into the Blizzard team.

Okay, so you're saying that a Football manager has no idea about football? (I mean, someone else made sports analogies and seemed to go just fine).
Coaches have no idea what they're talking about either?

It's silly to think they're not going to have at least an above knowledge level of the game, they're the ones that made it after all. They also have the statistics to back up their knowledge, and either way, you're harping on a point that doesn't even matter in the end. You claim "Jeff isn't going to know more than pro players", yet who's the one watching these pro players, and seeing how they enact it, and what's working too well, and listening to that feedback?

It's Jeff and his team. And yet, despite knowing all this, he still places around Platinum.

So one last time, for clarification.
Your ranking in this game is just a mixture of different skills all being applied total. There's plenty of different skills at play that contribute to the difference between a plat player and grandmaster.

That does not mean for one moment though that the plat player can't be just as good at aiming, they might just suck at positioning and get killed far before they can do anything.

Or they might suck at teamwork, and repeatedly pick heroes that aren't ideal and flame their team.

Hell, they might even be extremely knowledgeable at the game, yet cannot reach that high because they suck at aiming, or they're not good at flexing different heroes, etc.

It's completely silly to say "Well, this person is this rank, and that person is that rank, ergo the first person is right", because that's how you end up with people just going "You're bronze" even when it's completely false, rather than actually debating the point. Instead, what you SHOULD be doing is taking their individual merits and arguments and comparing them.

The only time rank might come into play is like, if a silver/gold player is saying "Well Tracer sucks, I kill her all the time", because that's something they're only encountering against Tracers that are a bit lackluster.

Outside of that, and especially in this current situation, the rank doesn't matter at all. And I feel like this is silly that you're even defending/playing devil's advocate about people dismissing opinions based on insults.

[Kasierith]

...it has no relevancy, yet you're connecting already "playtime" with "knowledge of the game".

That is my point. You don't NEED to play the game even to have indepth knowledge, you just have to study it. There is no "being better", and I have no idea why you're bring that up when the debate is about "knowledge", not "skill", and you're confusing the two as one.

There's really no eloquent way to say this, so I'll get right to the point. If you think that you can get all the in game knowledge you could possibly use by reading guides and watching videos, you are wrong. Actual game experience is important, because in a multifaceted game like OW there are too many factors that play into it. Going back to my previous post, you can read allll the guides you want on chess, but until you have practical experience to iron it out you don't have the understanding about how your collection of facts actually factors into gameplay. And in a game like OW that is mechanically far more complicated than chess with far more factors, this is even more true.

You're making it sound like every single situation has always been "The development team did not know as much!", when it's simply not true. There's plenty of times they made tweaks and adjustments based on what they knew that even the pros did not know.

Edit- Oh jeez, I re-read this and you're literally still arguing about "skill=knowledge". The devs can suck at playing the game, that doesn't mean they don't KNOW the game. I mean, you stick a 40+ year old against a 20 and see how the reaction difference is. I've never once argued that the devs can outplay the professionals, and for harping on me about "irrelevancy", it seems odd to try to bring up their execution again.

Shameless strawman aside, no. In professional environments, given enough time between game states, the professional community is always going to outpace the development team in skill at the game. And this amounts to far more than just mechanical skills. You can have perfect mechanical skills, but if you don't have other factors such as understanding of the map and team comps you aren't going to rise up to the high tier competitive environment. To emphasize this, aimbots still got wrecked by GM's.

I'm not asking for your response to it, I'm correcting your statement.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...ic/20752795395

Nothing about it is saying he was changed because they didn't expect players to have a good hook accuracy. It was because it felt bad to play against. I'm not quite sure debating that they didn't expect pro players to be pro is really a point.

He was changed because people with extensive knowledge of roadhog were able to abuse the flaw in his design in such a way that if implemented properly there was no counterplay to him. You go around the wrong corner, you die. Mix that with high level game sense, and it gave a zero counter situation playing out again and again with the same consistency as a perfect widow player. It was similar to garrosh in heroes of the storm; the win/lose rate was where they wanted, but there was massive vocal opposition because when garrosh did his combo right there was literally nothing you could do about it and zero counterplay situations simply are not fun.

Okay, so you're saying that a Football manager has no idea about football? (I mean, someone else made sports analogies and seemed to go just fine).
Coaches have no idea what they're talking about either?

The manager of a football team is not expected to be able to match a coach. If a coach got sick and the manager is present, you would not be able to simply swap the manager of the team into the game to draft a strategy equal to what the coach was providing. That doesn't mean he lacks any knowledge of the sport, just like being plat doesn't mean you don't have any knowledge of the game... but his knowledge of the sport is supplemental to his real job. Anyone who is sports savvy is going to be able to tell you this.

I'm going to reiterate... read that book. Because the majority of your argument boils down to a simple lack of understanding of how management works and how they factor into working as a team. That isn't something that's meant to disparage you, because if you've never worked with upper management you wouldn't be expected to understand how it functions. At this point your lack of understanding of what a high level manager is and does is hemorrhaging your argument.

It's completely silly to say "Well, this person is this rank, and that person is that rank, ergo the first person is right", because that's how you end up with people just going "You're bronze" even when it's completely false, rather than actually debating the point. Instead, what you SHOULD be doing is taking their individual merits and arguments and comparing them.

I invite and encourage you to go through any of my three posts in this discussion and point out a single appeal to authority. Failing that, your response is better suited towards another poster.

[Jessicka]

Fuck widowmaker mains. I'm sick of losing comp games because I get a widowmaker pug on KOTH maps and me telling them to switch is "being toxic"

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Bait, bait, bait, bait, "Lol why are you so salty?"

Jesus christ If I was a mod I would have infracted you halfway to fucking mars by now.

Badgering them to switch before you even start is toxic.

Spending the match blaming them for everything bad you’re experiencing, and demanding they switch is also toxic.

I literally don’t see that behaviour against players of any heroes other than Widow, Hanzo and Sombra. And I’ve seen some awful play of every hero on the roster. I don’t get why it’s okay to shit on those players but not the shit Reinhardts who constantly charge to their deaths and leave everyone else to get rolled.

[Ravex]

Very well.

-snip-

From August. Her rework went live in September.

Fair enough, I'd be interested to know the split between ranks and win % though.

[Ravex]

...it has no relevancy, yet you're connecting already "playtime" with "knowledge of the game".

That is my point. You don't NEED to play the game even to have indepth knowledge, you just have to study it. There is no "being better", and I have no idea why you're bring that up when the debate is about "knowledge", not "skill", and you're confusing the two as one.

I'm not interested in going back and forth on things we have already discussed because we obviously disagree, and I'm fine with that.

However just as Kasierith is saying, you are severely underestimating how climbing through the ranks and playing the game gives you a much better idea about game state then reading and watching.

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Badgering them to switch before you even start is toxic.

Spending the match blaming them for everything bad you’re experiencing, and demanding they switch is also toxic.

I literally don’t see that behaviour against players of any heroes other than Widow, Hanzo and Sombra. And I’ve seen some awful play of every hero on the roster. I don’t get why it’s okay to shit on those players but not the shit Reinhardts who constantly charge to their deaths and leave everyone else to get rolled.

Being very very blunt.

The great ones are Top 500, the good ones are grandmasters, and the average ones are masters.

Every other one would be better off as a more standard pick because there is a reason why they are still where they are.

As for the Rein, yea, there are idiots playing everything.

[Speaknoevil]

Mmmm widowmaker main logic.

If she can get to gold playing Widow she deserves to be there, on Widow. Whether you or others like it or not. The only time you really have the right to ask for swaps is if shes slamming her face into a Genji/Winston that she can't outskill.

Sombra could use a buff, sure you can find some vids of great players winning on her, but they would be better off on another hero.

[Jessicka]

Mmmm widowmaker main logic.

Widowmaker specifically because she provides NO OTHER VALUE other than one-shotting people, especially on a KOTH map... So because 99% of widowmakers aren't grandmaster level CS:GO sniper players, what actually ends up happening is widowmaker feeds the enemy teams supports ultimate after ultimate and the team she is on ends up 5v6ing on the point. This goes for Sombra and Hanzo too... But they have utility outside of sniping to get picks, so it doesn't tilt me NEARLY as much. A bad widowmaker is worse than the worst of ANY OTHER HERO.

McCree doesn't offer anything else either, nor do Reaper or much of the offence roster. Widow changes up how your opponents have to fight you, often entirely; they don't always do that, and certainly not effectively. I have a positive win rate on Widow, enemies give me far fewer problems than team mates.

As for "Widow main logic", the hell are you on? My play is split pretty even so far this season between Widow, Orisa, D.Va and Mercy. I can appreciate what all heroes bring, and when I play Mercy, I can see all the mistakes and all the bad play - not all of it comes from Widows, not even most of it. Most match costing bad play comes from the MT or the flanker DPS over-extending; not something Widows are prone to do.

Being very very blunt.

The great ones are Top 500, the good ones are grandmasters, and the average ones are masters.

Every other one would be better off as a more standard pick because there is a reason why they are still where they are.

As for the Rein, yea, there are idiots playing everything.

Ah this myth again, almost like the SR system magically doesn't work for Widowmaker, and shouldn't have the granularity it does for her since they can only fit in a binary of 4k+ or <1k, never in between.

There's plenty of scope to be able to do enough at your rank, and that applies to any hero.

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So literally every game with a widowmaker, great. Glad we agree.

I mean Sombra is still less annoying to have on your team than a widowmaker because Sombra at least provides better healthpacks and hacks... Widowmaker only provides picks, and if she isn't getting picks, she is feeding.

If she's got to that rank, she's getting picks.

Winstons in comp cannot play 'hunt the Widowmaker', it doesn't work, it just means they keep overextending and dying; he's really not that big a deal, especially since the grapple buff. Genji can be a problem, but we're fighting similar level Genjis here, if we suck, they generally suck too.

Stop focusing your ire and tilting because you don't like the hero. Other people make mistakes as well, but you're giving them a free pass they don't deserve either.

[Ravex]

McCree doesn't offer anything else either, nor do Reaper or much of the offence roster. Widow changes up how your opponents have to fight you, often entirely; they don't always do that, and certainly not effectively. I have a positive win rate on Widow, enemies give me far fewer problems than team mates.

As for "Widow main logic", the hell are you on? My play is split pretty even so far this season between Widow, Orisa, D.Va and Mercy. I can appreciate what all heroes bring, and when I play Mercy, I can see all the mistakes and all the bad play - not all of it comes from Widows, not even most of it. Most match costing bad play comes from the MT or the flanker DPS over-extending; not something Widows are prone to do.


Ah this myth again, almost like the SR system magically doesn't work for Widowmaker, and shouldn't have the granularity it does for her since they can only fit in a binary of 4k+ or <1k, never in between.

There's plenty of scope to be able to do enough at your rank, and that applies to any hero.

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If she's got to that rank, she's getting picks.

Winstons in comp cannot play 'hunt the Widowmaker', it doesn't work, it just means they keep overextending and dying; he's really not that big a deal, especially since the grapple buff. Genji can be a problem, but we're fighting similar level Genjis here, if we suck, they generally suck too.

If you did enough for your rank, you wouldn't be at that rank. This goes for every hero.

It goes double for high skill capped heroes considering you would almost always perform better on anything easier to play.

Also, not a myth pretty much common knowledge.

[Jessicka]

If you did enough for your rank, you wouldn't be at that rank. This goes for every hero.

It goes double for high skill capped heroes considering you would almost always perform better on anything easier to play.

Also, not a myth pretty much common knowledge.

Then why do Genjis and Tracers not get shit on for playing them at low levels? They're often totally ineffective against the sorts of comps you see there.

Sometimes she's the wrong pick, it goes for any hero. Doesn't mean you should give the player any more shit for it.

[Speaknoevil]

Wrong. Mcree offers a stun grenade + right click combo that even the newest player can understand, and which leads to getting picks easily, on top of an incredibly powerful ultimate. Reaper offers super easy point and shoot at close-range gameplay, a way to prevent feeding (shift), and again a super powerful ultimate. These two heroes are far more versatile even at a base level than widowmaker, whose entire toolset is built around helping her and only her get picks and whore ultimate is effectively useless a huge amount of the time, and even when it is useful requires knowledge of when to use it.

Freudian slip? Lol. Also wallhack is useful for everyone on the team.

[Woobels]

lol what? I'm a golden gun winston and I can assure you this is not the case. The only time this would actually be a problem is if an entire team was built around sheltering a widowmaker, which CAN happen... But if that was happening you wouldn't be using winston to counter it anyways.

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They do, but again they have utility outside of getting singular picks.

In what bracket are you exactly? Golden gun doesn't tell me much.

Constantly hounding a Widowmaker at a decent MMR is not always the best idea as Winston, Genji is far, far better at that task for example, with the Grapple buff you actually need to put some thought in the match up because she can waste a ton of your time (Granted, you are wasting hers too but your team is more liable to get hurt without the monkey close)

[Jessicka]

lol what? I'm a golden gun winston and I can assure you this is not the case. The only time this would actually be a problem is if an entire team was built around sheltering a widowmaker, which CAN happen... But if that was happening you wouldn't be using winston to counter it anyways.

They do, but again they have utility outside of getting singular picks.

Lol I have 5 golden guns if we're going to swing those around! Seriously, Winston playing hunt the Widow won't win the match, unless the Widow was carrying, in which case it wasn't wrong for Widow to be on Widow until that point - and they're probably good enough to deal with you anyway if that's the case.

Genji doesn't have a lot until Dragonblade, unless he can suck people into duels; Tracer is pretty much a pure duellest and is all about singular picks.

[Ravex]

Then why do Genjis and Tracers not get shit on for playing them at low levels? They're often totally ineffective against the sorts of comps you see there.

Sometimes she's the wrong pick, it goes for any hero. Doesn't mean you should give the player any more shit for it.

Genjis always get shit on at low ranks as well, Tracers as well, granted not as much (they have easier mechanics to avoid looking like a shitter)

[Ravex]

Lol I have 5 golden guns if we're going to swing those around! Seriously, Winston playing hunt the Widow won't win the match, unless the Widow was carrying, in which case it wasn't wrong for Widow to be on Widow until that point.

Genji doesn't have a lot until Dragonblade, unless he can suck people into duels; Tracer is pretty much a pure duellest and is all about singular picks.

They both excel finishing off kills and getting away.

[Jessicka]

They both excel finishing off kills and getting away.

Widow can and will finish, and doesn't need to waste time running away. Not all about pure headshots here, as the myth goes.

[Ravex]

Widow can and will finish, and doesn't need to waste time running away. Not all about pure headshots here, as the myth goes.

Except a simple wall completely shuts down a widow maker. If a wall is not a factor then any offensive hero could of done what the widow maker can do.

There is no wasted time running away, they have those abilites baked in.

[Gandrake]

i feel like it should be a bannable offense to get outdamaged as a damage hero by Zenyatta when you lose a game

Not at all, and you can easily go check that up yourself, I don't bother to hide, I've said before that I'm plat

which means that you aren't plat because you don't even play comp that's like saying you're a marine so you can start swimming in pussy when you haven't been on a single tour of duty xD

You're the one comparing Bastions dps to Mercy's hps and thinking that proves something though. You're just digging yourself a hole.

yall started whining because i said mercy was the best support in the game because she turns fights 8v6 vs teams without a Mercy and wanted to argue technically in some ways other supports were actually superior which is about is obvious as the fact that water is wet and tacos are good.

[Jester Joe]

i feel like it should be a bannable offense to get outdamaged as a damage hero by Zenyatta when you lose a game



which means that you aren't plat because you don't even play comp that's like saying you're a marine so you can start swimming in pussy when you haven't been on a single tour of duty xD



yall started whining because i said mercy was the best support in the game because she turns fights 8v6 vs teams without a Mercy and wanted to argue technically in some ways other supports were actually superior which is about is obvious as the fact that water is wet and tacos are good.

By that logic, I'm diamond then because that's where I climbed up to when I actually had enough time to play past placements. So I'm not sure if you want to argue I'm not plat then. You cut that part out again though. Either way, my personal skill level is irrelevant to the debate. I do play comp every season to get placements done at least.

And no one was arguing that Mercy isn't the best at the moment, so maybe you misunderstood a few posts or confused this thread with another.

I did say Mercy's popularity is always going to be high as long as she can put out a really good hps while being easy to pick up, because not everyone plays healers but at some point you're going to have to. Hps isn't comparable to dps either, because Bastions Max dps comes at too many sacrifices, while Mercy's Max hps doesn't.

But yes, there are other ways other supports are better. Zen is far better for graviton surge.
Lucio is far better for a d.va/Mei ult.

I'm not interested in going back and forth on things we have already discussed because we obviously disagree, and I'm fine with that.

However just as Kasierith is saying, you are severely underestimating how climbing through the ranks and playing the game gives you a much better idea about game state then reading and watching.

Just to clarify on this, it's not that I'm underestimating, it's I'm talking about this specific case where someone was claiming that the higher your ranking the more you know.

Which isn't always true. I'd point towards one tricks as an example in that case of people who only know one thing, but know it extremely well. That doesn't mean a one trick Symmetra knows more about Torb than a Diamond Torb player does. The Sym knows how to work around Torb, but not how to play Torb, or how to play around other characters as Torb.

Hopefully that clears it up a bit at least.

[Eapoe]

So, just so I am caught up on the forums:
People bit h when Widow is on their team still (for no good reason). I've had plenty of games where there's a Widow on my team, who does well and gets picks on every enemy push. I've also had games where we lost at hero select because people see Widow and go "that's it. Games over, I'm not trying!" I'm not saying I support Widow players, as most of my matches, both with and against, they aren't that good; however, I'm not going to throw in the towel at hero select just because I've had enough games that they surprise you. If they aren't getting picks or getting hard countered, I'll ask them to swap to something more useful.
Next point: people still complaining about Mercy? Jesus, learn to aim a bit and maybe not let her Rez her teammate in full view of your team and get back out. Honestly, you know how many times I've been support on my team where we kill Rein (the ONLY enemy tank) just to watch my team spectate the Mercy swooping in to Rez Rein? All because they are trying to shoot the Junkrat hiding behind a wall. Honestly, so many of the Mercy complaints would just disappear if people knew how to prioritize targets. Here's a thought, just as an example, if you're on Junkrat and just "too good to switch," maybe build your Ult up, use it wisely, and pick off thatMercy with it? If you get more than her, that's a bonus. Then let me know how much you want to complain about her Rez being so damn OP when your team still fails even though she's dead.
I also enjoyed seeing the arguement that Widow gives enemy support free Ult charge. Exactly what the fuck do you think you are doing as literally any other character that doesn't kill someone while hitting them?
Seriously, some of the arguements people come up with are just laughable anymore.