BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Nigel Tufnel]

Surprised to see a lack of debate about this.

Leave or remain?

I will vote leave because:

a) I do not feel, at heart, that I'm a "European" and I do not want further political or economic integration of the sort that the federalists in Brussels are pushing for. I believe that the original post WW2 argument that European countries who trade with each other are less likely to go to war has been superseded.

b) TTIP, specifically the introduction of ISDS (Investor State Dispute Settlements), which would allow companies to sue governments if those governments’ policies cause a loss of profits. A spectacular devaluation of democratic process, especially considering how the Tories are busy privatising the NHS. Enter Corbyn and then a host of American lawyers will be taking billions from the public purse. Completely unacceptable. TTIP fails to take into account ongoing variations in local political opinion.

c) Democratic accountability. Rightly or wrongly I feel the EU is a distant and unaccountable institution that I have little influence over. An unelected council drafts legislation that MEPs (assimilated into right, centre right, centre left, and left voting blocs) vote on? I just don't see how this is right. If there were a democratically elected President and European Commission I might feel differently about this, but that's not the case.

d) The incredible, overwhelmingly negative campaigning of the Remain camp. Not a day goes by without Cameron or Osborne trundling out some new apocalyptic statistic. If they were to actually say something positive for a change I might feel differently. But it's an ongoing onslaught of "you *WILL* lose £x" in relation to e.g. house prices and "you *WILL* lose £x" in relation to e.g. the cost of foreign holidays. It just puts my back up.

I will not vote leave because of fears about:

a) Immigration. Immigrants contribute a huge amount, culturally and economically, to the UK. I do not worry about strains on public services, although I accept that views will differ on this.

b) The costs of membership of the EU - 0.5% of GDP.

I am worried about voting leave because:

a) As a tax-payer who has had to tolerate 8 years of austerity, the immediate short-term economic effect of Brexit will be negative (even according to the least pessimistic of estimations). Having paid for the financial sector's shortcoming over the last 8 years, I'd then face a further 10 years of uncertainty, possible recession, further austerity, etc.

b) Destabilisation of the EU as a whole. In the face of increased economic protectionism e.g. Trump in the White House, China's distortion of commodity markets, and open military aggressiveness from e.g. Russia. Can the EU afford to lose the UK?

UK folk - how will you vote and what are you reasons for doing so?

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Edit: 25/06/16

So, the UK voted to Leave by 51.9% - 48.1%

Over the last 20 days or so since I made this post, and having done a lot research, I chose to alter my initial stance and voted Remain on the basis that my fears regarding the potential economic downturn following a Leave vote, in both the short term and the long term, outweighed all other considerations.

It's too early to tell what will happen. In the very short term, the financial markets have made clear they don't like uncertainty and reacted accordingly. We'll see.

The result is hardly an unequivocal triumph for the Leave camp. 17,410,742 voters of a total electorate of ~46,500,000. England & Wales choosing to Leave, Scotland & Northern Ireland choosing to Remain.

Personally, I see a deeply divided UK. Voters heavily split by the region they live in, their age & their class. I sense no feeling of overwhelming euphoria. No sense of elation. Just a huge amount of division.

This was a massive, massive decision. As the Guardian puts it: "[it] represents a turning point in British history to rank alongside the two world wars of the 20th century". I sincerely hope all those who voted made their choice after considering the arguments carefully. I also hope that the two sides can unite now and work to address the economic & political change that will follow as a result.

[Deleted]

remain.

Economically its a non-issue. Its not even up for debate at this point.

Immigration? Its positive and I hope it remains as it is.

EU accountability? its bullshit. We elect MEPs, we sign directives into law, we have a veto on treaty change, and 95% of the time votes go the way we want them to (an absurdly high amount in a democracy). The EU with proportional representation is more representative than our own government....
Also, we would want a free trade treaty, and have to sign up to most EU directives, and yet we'd have not vote.....even if you think we are poorly represented, why woudl you want to go to a position of no representation?

The EU also acts as a check to the worst excesses of national governemtn who abuse their wafer thin mandates. The EU protects my rights, as an individual and also as a worker.

And the EU is a positive organisation, one of progress and the only one willing to stand up to corportate interestes, which our government sucks up to.


As for negative campaigning, its partly due to the leave side arguing fantasy so can be "positive", and the remain side arguing for teh status quo, so have to go "negative" as their position is that leaving is bad.....but lets face it, leave have been negative aswell, "85 million Turks will flood into the UK", "the EU is hitlers wet dream", "the EU stops you buying bananas in bunches of 3+"......and dodgy statistics "£350million a week...."

Both campaigns are full of bullshit, so ignore them. And go for independent sources and make your own mind up.

For me its a no brainer to remain, I really dont get any of the arguments for leaving and I shudder to think what a leave decision could end up with, and how it would affect the younger generations.

[Ryme]

Still want to a bit more research, currently leaning leave though.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Great post.

remain.

Economically its a non-issue. Its not even up for debate at this point.

In the short term, yeah, but how about the long term? My objection is that I'd be saddled with the short term fall-out. The long term outlook is not certain at all.

Immigration? Its positive and I hope it remains as it is.

Completely agree.

EU accountability? its bullshit. We elect MEPs, we sign directives into law, we have a veto on treaty change, and 95% of the time votes go the way we want them to (an absurdly high amount in a democracy). The EU with proportional representation is more representative than our own government....
Also, we would want a free trade treaty, and have to sign up to most EU directives, and yet we'd have not vote.....even if you think we are poorly represented, why woudl you want to go to a position of no representation?

OK - but these directives... it's an unelected body proposing laws which are voted on by coalitions of MEPs ? I don't get it. The laws should be proposed by elected politicians and voted for on a local level that is understood and influenced by the public. Who has heard of e.g. the European Conservatives and Reformists of which the UK's Conservatives MEPs form part? Or the Progressive Alliance of Of Socialists And Democrats - Labour. There's a complete disconnect here.

The EU also acts as a check to the worst excesses of national governemtn who abuse their wafer thin mandates. The EU protects my rights, as an individual and also as a worker.

And the EU is a positive organisation, one of progress and the only one willing to stand up to corportate interestes, which our government sucks up to.

Well... Tony Benn didn't agree with you. One of the major leftist arguments is that continued membership of the EU has only served to undermine workers' rights in the UK. Downwards pressure on salaries etc.

As for negative campaigning, its partly due to the leave side arguing fantasy so can be "positive", and the remain side arguing for teh status quo, so have to go "negative" as their position is that leaving is bad.....but lets face it, leave have been negative aswell, "85 million Turks will flood into the UK", "the EU is hitlers wet dream", "the EU stops you buying bananas in bunches of 3+"......and dodgy statistics "£350million a week...."

Both campaigns are full of bullshit, so ignore them. And go for independent sources and make your own mind up.

Yep, I completely agree. It says a lot that both campaigns haven't focused on the positives.

[Deleted]

im voting leave and i think we will end up leaving then we can ditch the sinking ship known as the EU, you should watch a video on youttube called cant barrage the farage, how he makes intellecuals look stupid, for example a news reporter accuses him of being racist cos he wants british people to have more of a superior chance of getting a job, lol how is that racist isnt it the job of the government to put its own citizens first. this is why this countrys gone to shit cos everyone plays that stupid race/sexism card way to much im sick of it, fuck cameron, fuck the tories, fuck the EU

#IWANTBRITAINGREATAGAIN2016

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remain.

Economically its a non-issue. Its not even up for debate at this point.

Immigration? Its positive and I hope it remains as it is.

EU accountability? its bullshit. We elect MEPs, we sign directives into law, we have a veto on treaty change, and 95% of the time votes go the way we want them to (an absurdly high amount in a democracy). The EU with proportional representation is more representative than our own government....
Also, we would want a free trade treaty, and have to sign up to most EU directives, and yet we'd have not vote.....even if you think we are poorly represented, why woudl you want to go to a position of no representation?

The EU also acts as a check to the worst excesses of national governemtn who abuse their wafer thin mandates. The EU protects my rights, as an individual and also as a worker.

And the EU is a positive organisation, one of progress and the only one willing to stand up to corportate interestes, which our government sucks up to.


As for negative campaigning, its partly due to the leave side arguing fantasy so can be "positive", and the remain side arguing for teh status quo, so have to go "negative" as their position is that leaving is bad.....but lets face it, leave have been negative aswell, "85 million Turks will flood into the UK", "the EU is hitlers wet dream", "the EU stops you buying bananas in bunches of 3+"......and dodgy statistics "£350million a week...."

Both campaigns are full of bullshit, so ignore them. And go for independent sources and make your own mind up.

For me its a no brainer to remain, I really dont get any of the arguments for leaving and I shudder to think what a leave decision could end up with, and how it would affect the younger generations.

maybe you should change your avatar to the EU flag if your voting remain cos if your a proud brit like me you would vote leave but in the end its your life your vote just making a suggestion

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you say immigration is positive yes in controlled numbers but as we all know the real boss in the EU is merkel and if she gets her way turkey will join the EU, 485 million people have the right to come to the UK if they choose to, if you think immigration isnt a problem then your fooling yourself cos they will create more demand for housing and drive out more british workers from companys co they will work for fuck all, immigration controlled = good, mass immigration if we stay in the EU = bad

alot of remainers think leavers are all a bunch of facist,racist scumbags when we are not we are against the mass of immigration not controlled

[Alakallanar]

I will vote leave because:

b) TTIP, specifically the introduction of ISDS (Investor State Dispute Settlements), which would allow companies to sue governments if those governments’ policies cause a loss of profits. A spectacular devaluation of democratic process, especially considering how the Tories are busy privatising the NHS. Enter Corbyn and then a host of American lawyers will be taking billions from the public purse. Completely unacceptable. TTIP fails to take into account ongoing variations in local political opinion.

c) Democratic accountability. Rightly or wrongly I feel the EU is a distant and unaccountable institution that I have little influence over. An unelected council drafts legislation that MEPs (assimilated into right, centre right, centre left, and left voting blocs) vote on? I just don't see how this is right. If there were a democratically elected President and European Commission I might feel differently about this, but that's not the case.

b)TTIP doesn't "introduce" ISDS. ISDS are nothing new. Of the many, many already existing free trade agreements, quite a few contain provisions for ISDS. One can consider the way they are handled in TTIP as problematic (in which case I would be interested in the specifics), but if someone is against TTIP just because of ISDS per se means one is either misinformed or wants to turn the clock back 30+ years.

c) Democratic accountability:
You do directly elect the European Parliament and the President of the European Commission. The other members of the Commission, one for each member state, are choosen by the state and the President of the Commission together and confirmed by the Parliament. Then you have the European Council, which are the heads of the states + the President of the European Commission + the President of the European Council. (The President really only since 2009. Before that the President o.t.E.C. was always just rotated between the different heads of state.)
There are several member states which one could argue to be less democratic. I'm sure some (not me) would even claim that the UK is less democratic, due to things like the House of Lords or the Queen/constitutional monarchy.

[Deleted]

I will vote leave because:

c) Democratic accountability. Rightly or wrongly I feel the EU is a distant and unaccountable institution that I have little influence over. An unelected council drafts legislation that MEPs (assimilated into right, centre right, centre left, and left voting blocs) vote on? I just don't see how this is right. If there were a democratically elected President and European Commission I might feel differently about this, but that's not the case.

This needs to be adressed, because it's the biggest lie being spread by the leave-camp.

If you think democratic accountability is bad in the EU, then why would want to return power to a political system that has even lower democratic accountability?

The British Parliament operates under a first-past-the-post voting system. That means the biggest party always gets a lot more seats than their votes account for. This is why the Conservative Party is currently in power, with 51% of parliament seats even though it only has 36,8% of the votes. Labour has only 6,4% less votes yet they lose more than double that in representation with 15% less seats allocated to them. The 51 seats the Liberal Democrats should receive? Gutted to just 8. The 82 that UKIP should get and the 24 for the Greens? Both reduced to 1! All in all about 23% of British voters don't even have their vote represented in parliament! That's more than 7 million people in 30 million voters who are completely unrepresented.

So what's really going on here?

Put simply: the European Parliament is ruled by progressives, liberals, socialists and centrist Christians. The conservative right is powerless. This means anything the British conservatives want to do can be blocked by Labour's European allies. However, if the British conservatives manage to drag the UK out the EU, Labour and every other party are essentially rendered powerless while the conservatives are handed complete power for the foreseeable future. It is nothing less than an attempted coup of the British political system by the conservative right under the guise of of national sovereignty. Within the Conservative Party, it is an attempted coup by the far right against centrist reformers like David Cameron who want to steer the party towards moderate waters with the help of other European centrists.

All in all: the UK referendum has fuck all to do with national sovereignty and everything with reactionairy conservatives trying to control the UK through its broken voting system.

[Kuntantee]

As an outsider, there isn't much reason for UK to stay in EU, unless there is distinct economical advantage. If I was a Brit and leaving EU was an economical loss, I would vote no, otherwise, leave.

[Deleted]

The EU is finished whats so great about being in the EU orginally UK joined for trade but thats far gone now, people have even said we would be better off in EU cos its peacuful and we wil lget more money lol 2 problems with that.

1+2) look at greece and italy there part of the EU and have massive debt, spain has massive youth unemployment and then theres terrorist attacks in belgium and paris, if you are a true brit you will vote leave cos if we stay in we will be continued to be told what to do by the buerocrats in the EU parliment and dnt read all this bullshit in the media about the EU referrendum either cos 90% of it is all biased towards the remain cos only the rich wanna remain so they have nice jobs to fallback on after we vote the cunts out for making britain even worse,

[Mayhem]

The EU is finished whats so great about being in the EU orginally UK joined for trade but thats far gone now, people have even said we would be better off in EU cos its peacuful and we wil lget more money lol 2 problems with that.

1+2) look at greece and italy there part of the EU and have massive debt, spain has massive youth unemployment and then theres terrorist attacks in belgium and paris, if you are a true brit you will vote leave cos if we stay in we will be continued to be told what to do by the buerocrats in the EU parliment and dnt read all this bullshit in the media about the EU referrendum either cos 90% of it is all biased towards the remain cos only the rich wanna remain so they have nice jobs to fallback on after we vote the cunts out for making britain even worse,

And what of this has anything to do with the EU? If you leave the EU, you will still trade with the EU, because guess what, the EU will still be right at your border. All you give up is leverage, that doesn´t strike me as the most UK focused move. And we´re ignoring that the majority of trade agreements were beneficial for the UK, that the EU financial hub is in London and a number of benefits the UK enjoys that they most certainly will lose after they leave the EU.

[Durandro]

Remain. No rational case has been made to leave, only vague promises without substance and general scaremongering and xenophobia.

And if you think taking in a few tens of thousands of migrants is an issue, just wait until those two million Brits who live in the EU get deported back to the UK. Most of whom are retired and not especially wealthy.

If we leave the EU we're going to be mortally wounded as a country and leave ourselves vulnerable to extremists within our own government.

[Exilian]

Remain, but push for change within the EU.

The EU is a great institution and above all a great concept - a unified Europe is one of the strongest players on the international scene, and it is the only way to make up for the sheer lack of territorial benefits which massive continental countries such as the USA and Russia have. The trade deals benefit everyone and most European countries have some kind of common cultural background.

However, the EU's decision making needs to be expedited and made more effective because there are too many things slowing it down. It also needs to look at what is in all the countries' best interest, and act accordingly, not according to any single person's or body's moral compass (the best example being the immigration crisis).

[tratra]

remain. end of story.

and someone put Boris into a loonie asylum please.

[Durandro]

The EU is finished whats so great about being in the EU orginally UK joined for trade but thats far gone now, people have even said we would be better off in EU cos its peacuful and we wil lget more money lol 2 problems with that.

1+2) look at greece and italy there part of the EU and have massive debt, spain has massive youth unemployment and then theres terrorist attacks in belgium and paris, if you are a true brit you will vote leave cos if we stay in we will be continued to be told what to do by the buerocrats in the EU parliment and dnt read all this bullshit in the media about the EU referrendum either cos 90% of it is all biased towards the remain cos only the rich wanna remain so they have nice jobs to fallback on after we vote the cunts out for making britain even worse,

I'm a 'true Brit', so what do you say to me then? I'm British going back at leastt seven generations, and that's only because records from before 1750 are difficult to come by. Or is this a case of no true scotsman and general xenophobia?

Oh, and if you don't understand how bad the UK's economy is currently then you really need to get educated. We're propped up by banks - many of whom are European. Leaving would destroy whatever credit we still have with them. Every experienced economist agrees with this.

But please, keep telling us about 'true Brits' and how those Europeans keep telling us what to do. Did you ever even bother to vote for anyone other then UKIP, out of interest?

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Remain, but push for change within the EU.

Exactly! You can't change something from the outside, especially after you've annoyed them and weakened yourself.

[KyrtF]

a) I do not feel, at heart, that I'm a "European" and I do not want further political or economic integration of the sort that the federalists in Brussels are pushing for. I believe that the original post WW2 argument that European countries who trade with each other are less likely to go to war has been superseded.

Further and deeper integration is unlikely no matter what they want.

b) TTIP, specifically the introduction of ISDS (Investor State Dispute Settlements), which would allow companies to sue governments if those governments’ policies cause a loss of profits. A spectacular devaluation of democratic process, especially considering how the Tories are busy privatising the NHS. Enter Corbyn and then a host of American lawyers will be taking billions from the public purse. Completely unacceptable. TTIP fails to take into account ongoing variations in local political opinion.

Biggest champions of TTIP in the EU are the Tories. Brexit will only allow them to sign a version of it for the UK. TTIP however is amazingly unpopular amongst certain populations and at least two countries looks like they will need to hold referendums on the issue...never mind that France has already signalled it won't sign because the terms are unacceptable.

c) Democratic accountability. Rightly or wrongly I feel the EU is a distant and unaccountable institution that I have little influence over. An unelected council drafts legislation that MEPs (assimilated into right, centre right, centre left, and left voting blocs) vote on? I just don't see how this is right. If there were a democratically elected President and European Commission I might feel differently about this, but that's not the case.

Yes...a bit like Westminster where the Tories got elected on a national vote of 24%. Or the House of Lords. The EU isn't intended to be democratic because it is NOT a national government. You may as well complain the UN isn't democratic.

So - the question is not whether you think ti should be more democratic. The question is whether you want to give Brussels the democratic mandate to rule. For Brussels to actually BE a government of the people instead of an international ruling body overseeing a trade agreement.

d) The incredible, overwhelmingly negative campaigning of the Remain camp. Not a day goes by without Cameron or Osborne trundling out some new apocalyptic statistic. If they were to actually say something positive for a change I might feel differently. But it's an ongoing onslaught of "you *WILL* lose £x" in relation to e.g. house prices and "you *WILL* lose £x" in relation to e.g. the cost of foreign holidays. It just puts my back up.

And the lies and xenophobic racism of the Leave camp are better? The UK needs and deserves to know how a Brexit will affect them. Which is why those statistics and predictions are important. It isn't going to take a huge economic shock to the UK into recession for example. Don't you want to know that BEFORE Brexit?

Or would you prefer to wake up the day after and cry out "Why did no one tell me I was going to lose my job!?"

And surely the Leave Campaigns baldfaced lying and truth twisting is worse? How many tiems must people be told that the £350 million a week figure is bogus? That Turkey is NOT about to join the EU? Or more.

b) The costs of membership of the EU - 0.5% of GDP.

The UK pays £6 billion a year net. That's about 0.2% of the UK GDP.
That £6 billion paid for membership in a club that provided an extra £100 billion and more of trade to the UK.

Now - think of how much tax that extra trade generated for the government. Take away the £6 billion cost of membership.
What you are left with it the profit the government earns from membership. Not cost - profit.

a) As a tax-payer who has had to tolerate 8 years of austerity, the immediate short-term economic effect of Brexit will be negative (even according to the least pessimistic of estimations). Having paid for the financial sector's shortcoming over the last 8 years, I'd then face a further 10 years of uncertainty, possible recession, further austerity, etc.

Yep. 10 years of recession. Austerity. Economic decline. Industrial migration. Erosion of workers rights and environmental protections. That's the likelihood

b) Destabilisation of the EU as a whole. In the face of increased economic protectionism e.g. Trump in the White House, China's distortion of commodity markets, and open military aggressiveness from e.g. Russia. Can the EU afford to lose the UK?

It would hurt the EU....but the EU would likely survive. However, even were the EU to decide not to punish the UK or make things difficult, Brexit would likely be an economic disaster for the UK, taking perhaps 20 years to recover from. Politically....the UK would most likely lose Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland as well. And sovereignty as the Leave campaign want - does not exist. Even North Korea doesn't have that degree of sovereignty.

UK folk - how will you vote and what are you reasons for doing so?

As a confirmed Eurosceptic, I had hoped for the Leave campaign to make a convincing case for Brexit. I wasn't looking for certainty - simply a credible plan to show they weren't just engaged in a powerplay to line their own pockets.

Boris' speech when he joined the Leave camp was bad sign as it showed he was more interested in a second referendum than actual Leaving. The Brexit campaign has gotten worse and worse as one by one their arguments FOR got exploded. The economic case was wrecked., The sovereignty case was torpedoed. The patriotic case should see you voting for whichever leaves the UK stronger...And so on

And as they have retreated more and more into xenophobia and racism as the reason to leave, I've become more and more disillusioned with them. They have no plan for a transition. No credible vision. Only racist rants and childish temper tantrums.

I'm a Eurosceptic myself. I know the EU has problems. I know it is wasteful. Corrupt. Non democratic. None transparent. Overly bureaucratic. And more. I disliked the idea of vote till you get it righty that we saw in Ireland. But I also know that the faults do not extend as deeply as the Brexit campaign makes out. Nowhere near as deeply.

But the Leave campaign has relied on lies, distortions and denial. Anything that doesn't meet their vision is denounced as a lie...as part of a conspiracy...made by people who are bought or corrupt or on the gravy train. The Remain guys are guilty of exaggeration...but nothing like the dirty tricks and smear tactics of the Leave camp. If they can't rely on the truth...if they feel the need to hide the truth from us, to effectively con us into voting for Leave through the distasteful tactics of racism and xenophobia...well then, then can't have a lot of faith in their own case. If it can't stand up to scrutiny....what value is there?

I'll be the first to agree the EU needs reform.
I'll even agree that the UK way of doing things has much to recommend it - especially if tempered with the social justice many European nations show.

But Leaving? That's a decision I still have to make. I'm leaning towards Remain though

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In the short term, yeah, but how about the long term? My objection is that I'd be saddled with the short term fall-out. The long term outlook is not certain at all.

The long term outlook is also irrelevant. Brexit will cause a transition that will affect the UK - badly - for the next generation. It will likely mean Scotland leaves the Union. Doesn't matter that its a bad choice, they'll make it.

After that....the UK will never make up what it will lose but it might still be seen as prosperous. But long term, in or out - there will be good periods and bad periods. And if necessary, another referendum.

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im voting leave and i think we will end up leaving then we can ditch the sinking ship known as the EU, you should watch a video on youttube called cant barrage the farage, how he makes intellecuals look stupid, for example a news reporter accuses him of being racist cos he wants british people to have more of a superior chance of getting a job, lol how is that racist isnt it the job of the government to put its own citizens first.

No - he is racist because he is using immigration as a scapegoat for problems caused by Westminster and he is using that as a way to boost his own power.

Historically, such figures have never been beneficial.

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b)TTIP doesn't "introduce" ISDS. ISDS are nothing new. Of the many, many already existing free trade agreements, quite a few contain provisions for ISDS. One can consider the way they are handled in TTIP as problematic (in which case I would be interested in the specifics), but if someone is against TTIP just because of ISDS per se means one is either misinformed or wants to turn the clock back 30+ years.

Sure - ISDS exists in other nations and other contexts.

Its still a bad thing that needs to be outlawed and is reason enough for TTIP to be avoided. And even if it were removed...every other provision is also grounds for TTIP to be avoided. This is a deal made to benefit the multinationals and no one else.

[Cricket22]

I don't live in the U.K. So I don't have an opinion on this issue, but am very interested in learning the outcome.

[Noradin]

c) Democratic accountability. Rightly or wrongly I feel the EU is a distant and unaccountable institution that I have little influence over. An unelected council drafts legislation that MEPs (assimilated into right, centre right, centre left, and left voting blocs) vote on? I just don't see how this is right. If there were a democratically elected President and European Commission I might feel differently about this, but that's not the case.

The EU offers more democratic accountability than the UK does.
The only reason it looks undemocratic to people from the UK is that they cannot count past two parties.

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OK - but these directives... it's an unelected body proposing laws which are voted on by coalitions of MEPs ? I don't get it. The laws should be proposed by elected politicians and voted for on a local level that is understood and influenced by the public. Who has heard of e.g. the European Conservatives and Reformists of which the UK's Conservatives MEPs form part? Or the Progressive Alliance of Of Socialists And Democrats - Labour. There's a complete disconnect here.

Well, I have.
The reason you didn't is because that responsibility was left to your country in regards to your votes and they choose to trash them in a boycott.

[socialmaker]

I think you should leave and have fun with your muslim mayors (@london) and also SEE YA CHAPS! EU doesn't need the UK.

[Noradin]

Yes...a bit like Westminster where the Tories got elected on a national vote of 24%. Or the House of Lords. The EU isn't intended to be democratic because it is NOT a national government. You may as well complain the UN isn't democratic.

And it still mangages to be more democratic than the UK...

[Hottage]

im voting leave and i think we will end up leaving then we can ditch the sinking ship known as the EU, you should watch a video on youttube called cant barrage the farage, how he makes intellecuals look stupid, for example a news reporter accuses him of being racist cos he wants british people to have more of a superior chance of getting a job, lol how is that racist isnt it the job of the government to put its own citizens first. this is why this countrys gone to shit cos everyone plays that stupid race/sexism card way to much im sick of it, fuck cameron, fuck the tories, fuck the EU

#IWANTBRITAINGREATAGAIN2016

You're like a caricature. Nigel Farrage is a fucking conman, an ex-banker who helped cause the economic instabilities he nows blames on the EU. I don't understand why all the blue collar workers have such a hardon for him.

Being in the EU is in the benefit of the British people, both economically and civilly, thanks to the large number of checks and balances from Brussels.