Munkkys Vengeance Demon Hunter Guide UPDATED 7.3

[Jellospally]

Great guide! any thought on the legendary items? I know they wont be allowed for the start of raiding, but wondering which ones will be must haves and which will change how we play.

They will be allowed. They went back on it and said fuck it one item doesn't matter. Go read the summit interviews from like last week and the last weeks stream. They said you can use them.

[Deleted]

I was actually speaking with someone earlier about that. I haven't touched any of them incase they were changed but since we're so close I'll look more into it and get out the info. Also they announced last week that legendaries will be unlocked even week 1 of raiding. It's only turned off in pvp I believe.

Off the top of my head the cloak might be best followed by the ring with leech and the boots maybe though I still have to test/math it all out. Which I will post in my guide/spreadsheet.

Cheers for all the work Munkky, and I missed the update with the legendaries.

I only ask as I know a few class legendaries are pretty big for them (shadowpriest 2x mindblast charges for example), was wondering if we had any the same; but will wait for the math guru's to figure it out I guess.

[Munkky]

Cheers for all the work Munkky, and I missed the update with the legendaries.

I only ask as I know a few class legendaries are pretty big for them (shadowpriest 2x mindblast charges for example), was wondering if we had any the same; but will wait for the math guru's to figure it out I guess.

Once I get everything updated for the patch and get the legendary stuff taken care of I'll post up on here. Also thank you.

[Deleted]

I guess the Cloak would be the go to for us bcs its insanly strong due to our lack of dmg reduction vs magic. All others seem pretty shitty to me honestly.

[Deleted]

Hey Munkky, do you know what the Percent Health in the Soul Barrier formula equals to ?
I did some test and I get the same absorb value whatever my HP is at the moment of application.

[Orloth]

It's probably just leftover from the old %health model, and set to "zero" now. That block is simplified to just a number in game, anyway, so it probably isn't a priority to fix something that only dataminers really see.

[Munkky]

Hey Munkky, do you know what the Percent Health in the Soul Barrier formula equals to ?
I did some test and I get the same absorb value whatever my HP is at the moment of application.

What Orloth said.

[Deleted]

Okay makes sense, thanks guys

[ThunderWolf]

Any thought on adding a section about BiS relics to the artifact section of the guide? Really awesome work!

[Deleted]

One question, it seems u have a working simcraft build for Legion, can u share that or atleast post a link so we can get our hands on?

[Munkky]

Any thought on adding a section about BiS relics to the artifact section of the guide? Really awesome work!

I have a relic sheet on my spreadsheet. Which shows all dung and raid relics. I also posted priorities for both dps and surv. For relics it's mostly going to be whatever the highest ilvl is.

- - - Updated - - -

One question, it seems u have a working simcraft build for Legion, can u share that or atleast post a link so we can get our hands on?

I will not post them but they are easy to find. It only causes issues. If you want them seek it out.

[Deleted]

Hey, quick question why are ilvl the most important part of relics? (don't have beta access so just wondering)

[Munkky]

If you get relics of the same ilvl then you will just choose the best ones. Relics are what upgrades the ilvl of your weapon so higher ilvl relics means more agi/stam/crit/mastery which the slot the relic upgrades needs to be better than. Most of them are very minor.

[Deleted]

Ah ok, I thought they just gave you +1 to artifact traits. I didn't realise they bumped up ilvl. Thanks for the reply!

[Viggen2012]

That's a great work.

However I disagree about Soul Barrier. For example, right now (at 832 ilvl, 856 weapon ilvl), Soul Cleave heals me 255k at 60 pain (+ soul fragments heal of course). At the same time, Soul Barrier shields for 300k + 50k for soul (which can make it 550k with 5 souls + soul fragments heal, similar to Soul Cleave) - but for 30 pain. This means, that I get at worst 100k heal per 10 pain (and at best almost 200k per 10 pain) using Soul Barrier vs something like 40k heal for 10 pain when using Soul Cleave.

I understand, that Soul Cleave also damages targets and that it doesn't have a CD, but from survivability point of view (per ability used) - I think Soul Barrier is pretty good.

Also, speaking of Fracture - I do not think, that 2 souls are worth spending so much (40) pain on a damaging spell (which does mediocre damage), especially when we have Feed the Demon in the same row.

[Orloth]

To be fair, those pieces were written before Soul Cleave changed to its current version and when Soul Barrier was half as effective.

[Munkky]

That's a great work.

However I disagree about Soul Barrier. For example, right now (at 832 ilvl, 856 weapon ilvl), Soul Cleave heals me 255k at 60 pain (+ soul fragments heal of course). At the same time, Soul Barrier shields for 300k + 50k for soul (which can make it 550k with 5 souls + soul fragments heal, similar to Soul Cleave) - but for 30 pain. This means, that I get at worst 100k heal per 10 pain (and at best almost 200k per 10 pain) using Soul Barrier vs something like 40k heal for 10 pain when using Soul Cleave.

I understand, that Soul Cleave also damages targets and that it doesn't have a CD, but from survivability point of view (per ability used) - I think Soul Barrier is pretty good.

Also, speaking of Fracture - I do not think, that 2 souls are worth spending so much (40) pain on a damaging spell (which does mediocre damage), especially when we have Feed the Demon in the same row.

The problem with Soul Barrier is that it competes with cheat death. With fracture its still mediocre at best. When you are comparing a talent to a baseline ability, that is fine, but you also have to compare it to the other talents in the row, and it is easily the weakest.

Fracture isn't used for the souls it is only used for the damage side. I was simply saying things you can do but I only ever recommend fracture for single target dps. Soul Cleave at 60 pain does more but not at 40 so you have to remember that when arguing the two.

Feed the demon is only viable with fallout, which is only viable in AoE and most prefer Feast of souls for the smoothing.

I'll look it back over to see what needs fixed.

I updated Fracture since it still had the pre Soul Nerf info in there. Thank you for that.

[Viggen2012]

The problem with Soul Barrier is that it competes with cheat death. With fracture its still mediocre at best. When you are comparing a talent to a baseline ability, that is fine, but you also have to compare it to the other talents in the row, and it is easily the weakest.

Fracture isn't used for the souls it is only used for the damage side. I was simply saying things you can do but I only ever recommend fracture for single target dps. Soul Cleave at 60 pain does more but not at 40 so you have to remember that when arguing the two.

Feed the demon is only viable with fallout, which is only viable in AoE and most prefer Feast of souls for the smoothing.

I'll look it back over to see what needs fixed.

I updated Fracture since it still had the pre Soul Nerf info in there. Thank you for that.

Thanks for the reply, here are some additional thoughts:

1) Feed the demon is actually a talent, that is viable even without Fallout. And the better gear you have, the more effective it becomes. Since Demon spikes recharge time is reduced by Haste, taking 1 second out of 15 second CD is 1/15 effectiveness, while taking 1s from 9 second CD is 1/9 effectiveness.

2) Felblade (and its cooldown is also reduced by Haste), can allow you to have enough Pain for a 100% uptime on Demon spikes (especially as Shear can allow to use it off-CD).

3) Feast of Souls vs Fallout - in my experience, Fallout gives a soul at roughly 50-75% rate, so if there are even 3 enemies, it can give you a nice setup for the heal burst. The problem with Feast - is that it does what a healer should do - slowly heal you up. While the tank himself should consider the situation in the fight and take decisions. Feast of Souls in no way can help you with that (even though it scales pretty well from AP), but Fallout can do that.

4) Indeed, cheat death is a good thing, especially, since it triggers the form. However, normally, unless there is a mechanic that is bursty - that talent will be useless (unless you are abusing it). At the same time, Soul Barrier is useful all the way, and it has a benefit from souls amount (i.e. you can increase the efficiency if you plan the fight).

P.S. I'll be doing some extra math here (already firing up my spreadsheet), so in a couple of days I think I'll link it and we can discuss all of the above based on accurate numbers, instead of our feelings.

[Orloth]

P.S. I'll be doing some extra math here (already firing up my spreadsheet), so in a couple of days I think I'll link it and we can discuss all of the above based on accurate numbers, instead of our feelings.

Munkky's kinda been our emissary from the Simcraft people, who have a much more accurate system than a spreadsheet. His views haven't been based on feelings, but the results of Simcrafting.

[Viggen2012]

Munkky's kinda been our emissary from the Simcraft people, who have a much more accurate system than a spreadsheet. His views haven't been based on feelings, but the results of Simcrafting.

Well, being a Master of Science (Phys & Math) and 10+ years of being a professional MMO-games producer allows me to say that I can build a proper model. While Simcraft is indeed a powerful tool - it matters a lot, which model you use for simulating (and in no way I'm going to challenge or question Munkky's emissary role and skills) - I'm just saying that I'll do the calculations, that may shed some additional light on this theorycrafting (it may prove me being wrong, actually )

However, may be you can tell me how are you going to sim the Last Resort vs Soul Barrier effectiveness without some additional analytical and logical model (because simming a damage spell vs damage spell is much easier)?