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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    There is only one change that would make wow pvp viable. Freedom to play premade and wipe out all casual pvp be it unrated or skirmish. Let players know that if they want to pvp successfully they have to do it organized. Having a pvp LFR doesn't work well.

    As for premades: Its a matter of choice. If you have a problem with premades why not enroll in one also. And time is not an issue. If you have time to win 2 games for example you will certainly get 2 wins faster through premade than from running randoms.

    As for prestiging: What a poor implementation. Even the end mount reward is a bad recolor of an existing vicious mount. Was it so hard to make a semi-unique mount or simply change the saddles on an existing model and give it a special flag or something?
    ..and end up with no player population to speak of ..

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    ..and end up with no player population to speak of ..
    Why you think premades would kill the game? I think bads are killing it. I enter game to win 1-2 BGs and end up playing 4 hours because some idiot is afking or worse.

    Premade is something you can do with friends or guild or randoms in LFG. No barrier at all and higher chance to get better and win. Player mentality will also be fixed since games will matter more and so more people will say "why not take it to the next level and play RBG or 5v5 or 3v3".

    Current model of random BGs is hurting the games. Zerg maps of 15 vs 15 should be 10 vs 10. Capping flags should be by click and not by standing. 40 vs 40 maps should also be broken to 20 vs 20 as well as 40 vs 40.

    Above all else give rated to everything a player does. See how much better players get when they feel that a bad rating reflects bad on them. Right now if you only play random BGs and you lose 9 out of 10 noone knows. Make it visible and see how much more people care.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Why you think premades would kill the game? I think bads are killing it. I enter game to win 1-2 BGs and end up playing 4 hours because some idiot is afking or worse.

    Premade is something you can do with friends or guild or randoms in LFG. No barrier at all and higher chance to get better and win. Player mentality will also be fixed since games will matter more and so more people will say "why not take it to the next level and play RBG or 5v5 or 3v3".

    Current model of random BGs is hurting the games. Zerg maps of 15 vs 15 should be 10 vs 10. Capping flags should be by click and not by standing. 40 vs 40 maps should also be broken to 20 vs 20 as well as 40 vs 40.

    Above all else give rated to everything a player does. See how much better players get when they feel that a bad rating reflects bad on them. Right now if you only play random BGs and you lose 9 out of 10 noone knows. Make it visible and see how much more people care.
    You are relying on a lot of questionable assumptions because you are thinking like a person who takes PVP seriously. I have no data to back this up, but I think it is safe to say the vast, VAST, majority of PVPers are what you would term "casual". They just want to log on, get into some games instantly and have fun. For them, "being good" isn't anywhere near as important as having fun (and getting rating doesn't qualify as fun for these people). By requiring premades or forcing a rating system on them, all you are doing is making it more difficult for them to jump right in and/or forcing a poor social experience upon them. If you think the social experience from PUGing heroic or mythic raids is bad, it is NOTHING compared to trying to get rating with RBG PUGs.

    In the past Blizzard had this idea of forcing players to "rise to the challenge" and it has failed miserably. Sure, some of the players who are more invested in the game and/or more competitive my nature will thrive in such a setup, but those types of players are still a minority. The trouble with this line of thinking is that the most hardcore of hardcore players and random Mr. Casual who logs on twice a week both pay the same subscription fee, and the former are far, far less numerous than the latter.

  4. #24
    Holinka is a dummy but he doesn't realize this experiment was tried before and failed.

    WotLk arena had all the incentives while random BGs did not...why step into WotLK arena for rated play when you could faceroll some heroics and receive better gear? You had to REACH 2K rated to obtain a weapon via PVP while you could faceroll heroics and obtain trinkets/weapons within hours.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Why you think premades would kill the game? I think bads are killing it. I enter game to win 1-2 BGs and end up playing 4 hours because some idiot is afking or worse.

    Premade is something you can do with friends or guild or randoms in LFG. No barrier at all and higher chance to get better and win. Player mentality will also be fixed since games will matter more and so more people will say "why not take it to the next level and play RBG or 5v5 or 3v3".

    Current model of random BGs is hurting the games. Zerg maps of 15 vs 15 should be 10 vs 10. Capping flags should be by click and not by standing. 40 vs 40 maps should also be broken to 20 vs 20 as well as 40 vs 40.

    Above all else give rated to everything a player does. See how much better players get when they feel that a bad rating reflects bad on them. Right now if you only play random BGs and you lose 9 out of 10 noone knows. Make it visible and see how much more people care.
    It's not that premades are killing the game, they are too rare to have an effect on anything, it's that premades matched against randoms can't make PVP attractive for either side. So, we are talking about premades vs premades and randoms vs randoms, and when that happens, premades vs premades are going to be small - they could be large only if PVP has great balance and tons of strats, and WoW is a far, far cry from that. And if you disable randoms vs randoms and have everything be premades vs premades, you simply lose randoms, they won't elect to premades, it's a pipe dream, they don't want to and they have reasons not to want to.

    What could maybe kind of work is soloq - it's all rated, but the rule of randoms vs randoms is enforced *and* you get matched vs opponents of equal rating = approximate skill (premades vs premades can still exist in their niche, they don't hurt anything). But that requires (a) Blizzard actually separating randoms and premades - they have been sitting on their bottoms on that for something like ten years now, no indication that they will wake up, (b) the number of players being large enough to jumpstart it all, because with people being separated by rating queue times skyrocket - that might be impossible now, they made BGs region-wide but while they were doing that they lost half of the players and made a big portion of the rest apathetic, so...

    Making WoW PVP good and popular is an uphill battle as it is, but with what they are actually doing, it's just a lost cause, they won't succeed at anything here ever. Legion PVP isn't going to do any revolutions, it's going to be another "yeah, and we also have PVP..." with no real popularity among players (other than maybe to AFK for gear, if that's going to be beneficial), zero pull outside of WoW, no youtube, no twitch, and a single sad tournament at Blizzcon where a couple of usual suspects will fuck each other beside pillars for a couple of bucks.
    Last edited by rda; 2016-07-01 at 04:33 PM.

  6. #26
    They play the company over the 'player' pushing forward organizational objectives over what the vast majority may want. Take 3v3 and how they have shoved that bracket down the player base throat .. How many actually play actively 3v3? Now how many play actively random BG's? 3v3/e-sport is a niche and its a cool niche so isolate it from the rest of the random game play .. put 3v3 and RBG inside a bubble and leave PvE/wPvP/Random BG's the FUQ alone ..

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sencha View Post
    Gear no longer matter in Legion PvP.
    Gear Does matter in legion PvP, also honor talents also matter, so now there will be 2 things to grind than one. Best part it will be much harder for your alt to catch up in Legion than it is now on WOD (which takes 2 days pvping to get full conquest set)

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Legion will be the Haves and the Have Nots, the rich getting richer. You'll need RNG luck, a high ranking and/or HC and Mythic raiding to get the top gear, and those that grind to get it will stomp those who don't. Then there's the talent and weapon grind. It will be segregation worse than any previous xpac.

    Instead of doing something serious about the rampant hackers and scumlords, it will further encourage cheating/botting and selling carries, wintrades, pilots at the mid CR levels up through the high end. All of this and still only 11 (8 for rated) BG maps (not counting Shitran), and 2 more arena maps in Legion for 8 total. That's a joke when after nearly 12 years we should have 3 times that for each format.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Legion will be the Haves and the Have Nots, the rich getting richer. You'll need RNG luck, a high ranking and/or HC and Mythic raiding to get the top gear, and those that grind to get it will stomp those who don't. Then there's the talent and weapon grind. It will be segregation worse than any previous xpac.

    Instead of doing something serious about the rampant hackers and scumlords, it will further encourage cheating/botting and selling carries, wintrades, pilots at the mid CR levels up through the high end. All of this and still only 11 (8 for rated) BG maps (not counting Shitran), and 2 more arena maps in Legion for 8 total. That's a joke when after nearly 12 years we should have 3 times that for each format.
    Exactly.

    Legion will be praised for about a month or two. Then the grim reality will set in, just like WoD, and people will leave in droves, just like WoD.

    This new system serves no one at all. Its doing to much at once while also being contradictory to the stated direction of PvP (there will be bigger power discrepancies than ever). Hell, everything about PvP in legion seems to be actively trying to -decrease- rated participation. Seems you'll be better off doing dungeons for gear, and the only way to get any of the new PvP rewards is to reset your talents and not be able to do rated untill they get back up. Plus the nonsense with artifact weapon grinds.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  10. #30
    Yes, more will play rated.

    Unrated PvP participation will collapse, though.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    Q: Why was the anti-vaxxer's 4 year old child crying? A: Midlife crisis.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    Legion Developer Q&A - PvP gave us lots of information about what they want PvP to look like come Legion and the message was heard loud and clear: WE WANT HIGHER RATED PARTICIPATION.

    Do you think that will happen and why?

    Most players play WoW a limited number of hours per day/week and enjoy all parts of the game at various degrees of intensity. Setting yourself a target (gear wise) was always part of WoW and its a cool thing. Legion will weaken PvP awarded gear as compared to WoD for PvE. Seeing how WoW is a fantasy RP PvE game, PvE gear on the other hand will still reign supreme in both areas of the game. (Talking for the majority of the player base or casuals)

    While the intent is to force more Rated Game play via extra rewards and faster gearing, at the end of the day the casual player will figure out its far easier and less stressful and probably cheaper (yes paying gold for boosting is a real thing) to buy raid boosts (even Mythic tier).

    Raid guilds will quickly discover a huge spike in demand from casuals and I fear the 'higher participation' in rated will be just for that 'first win' and end up being cannon fodder for the actual teams who play rated ..

    In other words another expansion of Acti-Blizz dictating to please the minority hardcore while totally shafting the casual player ..
    Nope. For me honestly, the wholesale changes are a turnoff. It feels like a new game instead of the game I've played for a long time. Gear not mattering is going to discourage players and take away any sense of progression. The class changes means characters will play totally differently. So nah, I'm not really interested at all.

    Also, the PVP population overlaps with overwatch more than the PVE pop, and Overwatch is free once you buy it.

  12. #32
    As an overall number? Definitely less.

    As a percentage of the overall playerbase? Most likely more, considering there's less gear gating than there ever was. Honor level will be a deterrent at first, but it'll be a month or two at most before most players have hit 0 Prestige-50 Honor, and then they'll never have to level it up again unless they prestige or reroll. Even if there's not a huge boom in the percentage of players doing rated, I can't see the number getting any lower.

  13. #33
    re-introducing rating on gear = less rated play

    repeat the same mistake, get the same result


    gear will also matter as time goes by

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by unstableone View Post
    re-introducing rating on gear = less rated play

    repeat the same mistake, get the same result


    gear will also matter as time goes by
    Dont forget reintroducing raiding as the best, fastest method to gain gear for PvP = less rated play
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    well with rated pvp being more skill based instead of gear based now, i see it going up in players who want actual pvp, but down with players who just play 24/7 eventually win, get BIS then like to stomp teams lower geared then them
    I'm sorry, I couldn't help but laugh histerically while crying. Legion PvP is far from skill based.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinxz View Post
    I'm sorry, I couldn't help but laugh histerically while crying. Legion PvP is far from skill based.
    High level/rated playing in WoD was not at all gear based at that. If you started early there was a system in place keeping peoples gear (so long as they had honor) near to each other that slowly went up as the season went on. If you started late, getting geared up was very quick and easy due to the rising conquest cap.

    People who say that PvP was gear based in WoD, did not PvP in WoD.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yes, more will play rated.

    Unrated PvP participation will collapse, though.
    It is more accurate to say both rated and unrated will collapse like what happened in WotLK. Everyone just facerolled heroics/raids in WotLK and Legion is no different in that regard.

    Prestige system is going to collapse the unrated portion and rated play having players stratified with the WotLK PVP gear rating model will ensure the ladders will also collapse. That is why unrated BG queues at the end of WoTLK were very high despite Bliz easing restrictions on gear in the final two seaons. And PVP ladders shrunk massively compared to BC.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  18. #38
    Deleted
    I am hopeful arena pvp will once again be revived.

    Mostly because it seems that your 2vs2 rating will also count towards getting better gear from pvp. 2vs2 is the most popular arena bracket, so I hope this will revitalize the whole arena scene as people try to climb up the ladder in 2vs2.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    It is more accurate to say both rated and unrated will collapse like what happened in WotLK. Everyone just facerolled heroics/raids in WotLK and Legion is no different in that regard.

    Prestige system is going to collapse the unrated portion and rated play having players stratified with the WotLK PVP gear rating model will ensure the ladders will also collapse. That is why unrated BG queues at the end of WoTLK were very high despite Bliz easing restrictions on gear in the final two seaons. And PVP ladders shrunk massively compared to BC.
    So what you're saying is that blizzard is entirely incapable of learning from past mistakes.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinxz View Post
    I'm sorry, I couldn't help but laugh histerically while crying. Legion PvP is far from skill based.
    Its absolutely skill based. Whoever caps their skills first wins Hmmm with the added problem of pve gear dominating open world and then some "minor" % differences 5-10% in BGs and oh forget about it I think it will be as bad as ever.

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