My(!) fundamental gripe with Legion PvP

[pfbe]

"Click to move" mandatory when?

[Deleted]

With select classes, at best. How is a BM hunter supposed to do it with no baseline CC, no options to re-open the gap after disengage, compared to now? How is an Unholy DK supposed to do it with no stuns except talented, a defense that crumbles under 2 person pressure and no means to sustain himself to survive until the Val'kyr's damage is rolling? How are most casters supposed to do it when they have to turret to deal significant damage? This is not about average joe'ing around. As about anything but rogue, tank or healer you have lost the very simple ability to stall for an opening.

I like group PvP more than since cataclysm respectively and in all likelyhood we'll be going for glad again after years - but random BGs are my gripe. It's impossible for a good player, except healers, to "carry" a bad team. I'm not speaking about bad or average players, I'm saying that the enjoyment of random BGs for exceptional ones is in danger for many specs.

[Deleted]

Having said all that, I still don't ever see myself playing Sub until they fix the clunky action bar issue. Same as many people.

Had no issue with the action bars because of the pruning - just fill the empty keybinds with your stealth skills and you're good.

[Deleted]

Tbh I stopped giving a damn today. If they want me to tear apart people with a pocket healer I'll just do it. Fuck everything. Not being able to come up with a decent matchmaking system after 11 YEARS and expecting us to roll over and take it just pisses me off.

[Soisoisoi]

Had no issue with the action bars because of the pruning - just fill the empty keybinds with your stealth skills and you're good.

It's not the extra buttons, it's Shadowstrike & backstab being the same thing, on two different buttons. Same reason everyone else is complaining if you've not seen the forums lately.

[Deleted]

It's not the extra buttons, it's Shadowstrike & backstab being the same thing, on two different buttons. Same reason everyone else is complaining if you've not seen the forums lately.

Don't feel it's gamebreaking, weakauras /whatever you prefer for a timer for shadowdance/stealth buff and you can reliably switch witch button you have to hammer. Set myself [c] backstab [v] shadowstrike. The thing i miss most is gouge.

[natpick]

I'm just gonna' stop here for a sec. I've seen this arguement before and all I can say is you need to check your spellbook and talents. If you only have 2-4 buttons then you've specifically talented into all passives or are simply not using your abilities as you should.

On my Rogue, on Beta, I have roughly 14 buttons that I use very often, that AREN'T major cooldowns. You can add 5 more if you want to add in those, and about another 5 on top of that if you want to count the lesser-used utility. Then roughly double it for arena/focus macros & binds.

go roll a hunter and do some pvp and come back and tell me how many buttons you have to press,cant speak for many other classes but hunters are a joke now in pvp,i agree with op blizzard are clearly going down the moba/gw2 route as far as talents and spells are concerned.

[Soisoisoi]

Don't feel it's gamebreaking, weakauras /whatever you prefer for a timer for shadowdance/stealth buff and you can reliably switch witch button you have to hammer. Set myself [c] backstab [v] shadowstrike. The thing i miss most is gouge.

The issue isn't tracking, it's having a button on a keybind for 10 years and suddenly it not working as it has been doing. Check the rogue forum and see.

go roll a hunter and do some pvp and come back and tell me how many buttons you have to press,cant speak for many other classes but hunters are a joke now in pvp,i agree with op blizzard are clearly going down the moba/gw2 route as far as talents and spells are concerned.

I'd rather not tbh, they made hunter unplayable for me when they changed the GCD. Pretty sure they still have more than a couple of abilities though if you're using the class to the full and picking usable talents.

[Mafic]

Rogues have been pruned hard.

Sub is a cloak and dagger mongloid spec.

Assassination tunnels a target but has no Blind or Gouge..so your playstyle in Legion is like a tunneling Feral with little outs. Boring.

Outlaw is simply looking for the right rolls before you try anything,

Other classes have been dumbed down hard as well.

[Auxora]

While I completely feel the same in unrated bgs now on beta, I am hopefully optimistic that the feel improves as folks get further up their honor talent trees. That's where the burst and defensive cd's come back that are all missing in beta with everyone's pvp level being relatively low. Especially at honor levels 22+ that looks like it will improve. What they've done with Legion to take most of that skill-requiring burst and defensive cd's out, and then let people earn them back with honor talents, really is kind of a gamble that it will gradually get a good feel before people declare unrated bgs a boring mess. I could see a lot of folks once Legion goes live giving up on unrated early on just because like others said it's not fun to watch yourself die to dots and limited self-heal cds, hoping a healer helps you out.

[Kreeshak]

What I've seen on the PTR is that there is a lot less stuns slows and CCs............ much much much more faster pace..........

It seem's I like it and it is interesting.....

I am a little worried if healers are the new gods, leading to stalemates, especially with the self healing of dps and hybrid specs nerfed.

[Nopkplease]

Op has a point. Look at classes like frost dk, they lost most of their utility and got turned into a damage bot. The difference between a pro and a scrub frost dk will be basically who reacts faster to procs. The skill ceiling is directly proportional to the number of spells a class has, they could have fixed this with the pvp talent system making them all actives but most of them are boring pasives so gg.

I've never really been able to tell much of a difference between a pro and a scrub frost dk, not sure how legion is going to change anything. The only one I ever played against that noticeably stood out to me was Mes because he was amazing with his Dark Sims, but everything else was just your normal frost DK damage spam.

[Magemaer]

Yup, they're watering down every class to a simple rotation with some more rotational options from talents, giving every class/spec a defensive, and a CC or two.. Everything that is considered niche/situational is removed, because god forbid an MMORPG needs that. Current dev team is obviously in love with MOBAs and they're trying to make WoW more and more like it, and like diablo, and not a standalone MMORPG that it used to be, for shame.

Devs are making WoW more like diablo and mobas. And imho they're absolutely right. In the grindy aspects of the game it should be like diablo, which has a way better (funnier, more rewarding) grinding model than what WoW has been trying for many expansions.
MOBAs are vastly superior pvp games. WoW should definitly be more like mobas. But not like they're doing, prunning abilities. WoW pvp needs to be reworked to be based more on skillshot landing, and not only positioning and cd manageament. That's a key factor that makes MOBAs great.
WoW should have a lot of keys to use, agreed here. But by that i mean many keys that are skill based and not just passive mash like OP said.

Besides, bgs should be reworked to have things like fog, towers, bases, creeps, etc. Right now, they're so boring and pointless.
It seems devs thought about improving WoW pvp, but gave up and decided to focus just on pve.

[Deleted]

Why is a healer helping his team win bad? The concept behind most competitive games is to always have a diverse team. 10 Hunters WSG should not beat 5 Rogues and 5 Mages. And 5 Mages and 5 Rogues should not beat 2 Warriors, 3 Shamans and 5 Druids. A team with 2 healers and 8 dpsers should fucking stomp a "Call of Duty Krew" of 10 dpers mashing their macros and cds. But 8 healers and 2 dps are not beating 3 healers and 7 dps either.

This is not a unique aspect to MMOs, having the same "class" in DotA games will wreck you, so will in Team Fortress 2, so will a full AWP sniper team in CS. Doing just jabs in Street Fighter is not gonna win you anything, but doing just throws wont do it either. Building just 1 or 2 units in Starcraft will not yield better results than if you have mix of units.

We have seen this game when the "Fuck Healers!" attitude persisted, it was at the start of WotLK, perhaps the worst period of WoW pvp.


Healers in PVP are the gatekeppers in this game from becomming literally Call of Duty + fantasy skin + Auto aim.

You are basically complaining that since you had no healers on your team, that they should be nerfed? So because less people play them, lets nerf them more which results in even less chance that you get one on your team?


To all the DPSers complaining how "OP" they are, why not roll one yourself then? Because you know damn well, when 2 good dpsers start training a healer, its a matter of time before he or she is dead unless help is there, and in random BGs help is rarely there.

[PrairieChicken]

Legion pvp seems like pve, you are stripped of your utilities and instead given more dps buttons in that place

[Magemaer]

Legion pvp seems like pve, you are stripped of your utilities and instead given more dps buttons in that place

Well, in that aspect: good. Better than just a cc game where you spend most of the matches not actually playing.

[Balvan]

I completely disagree with OP. I can't belive someone is complaining about dks losing their selfhealing. It is so out of control and skilless in WoD .
What they did in Legion is very good:

1) Selfhealing for non healer classes was out of control. They nerfed it.
2) Mobility of some classes was out of control. They nerfed it.
3) Amount of cc/control for some classes was out of control. They nerfed it.

I can't beleeve how you can not see when some things are out of control after so many years of playing.
And everybody complaining about ability pruning? Really? You all mention skills you lost and no1 mention skills you gained through artiffact/talents/pvp talents? No, you don't really have any less buttons then before. You might have less cc or self healing or "insert skill i loved", but you also gained some awesome skills.
Stop complaining please.

[Charge me Doctor]

That has more to do with the fact that everyone has the same "gear" now. There are no undergeared ones in random BGs anymore. The buttons to press aren actually more or less the same as in WoD. Of course you can not win a fight 1vsX as easy as it was before.

Unless you are ret with Equality. 1,5mil nukes are fun

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Op has a point. Look at classes like frost dk, they lost most of their utility and got turned into a damage bot. The difference between a pro and a scrub frost dk will be basically who reacts faster to procs. The skill ceiling is directly proportional to the number of spells a class has, they could have fixed this with the pvp talent system making them all actives but most of them are boring pasives so gg.

Correct me if i'm wrong but frost still have their grip, silence/stun and fuckton of slows. Doesn't sound like they lack utility, unless you want to be macgyver.

Yeah, amount of available buttons have been reduced, mostly to reduce bloat and to add more fun abilities, but reduction in self healing, utility, CC, defensive abilities are pretty much needed to distinguish tanks, DD and healers from each other. Remember when in PvP tanks are damage dealers, healers are tanks and damage dealers are healers? Yeah, that mostly gone no, thanks to reduction of available (to everyone) self-healing, DR, and various stackable (MS, stats, DR, CC) boosts

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It's either way strongly simplified compared to wod. As sub you lost (1)preparation, (2)gouge, (3)garrote, (4)poisons + (5)simplified shiv,(6)group stealth, (7)sanguine veins, (8)slice&dice, (9)recup got changed from a choice between dps and a hot to a simple cd with fixed value. And in return you got now passive cloak&dagger for ambush as well as 3 stacks of shadowdance, you can just push your dps boost in stealth that replaces premed and start the mongo spam of one button + finisher without a setup on someone since sanguine veins is gone wich makes rend less valuable and it's further discouraged by it being dispellable now as they made it magic.

1) With increased "value" of CDs an ability that has huge CD and drops most of your CDs is not healthy.
2) Overall reduction of CC on specs (to make them differ from each other, you know)
3) Overall reduction of CC on specs. Ok, you now have 1 less DoT on a burst damage spec.
4) Remind me, which part of "poisons" was important to sub? healing reduction or 70% permaslow? If first - overall utility reduction on specs. If second - overall CC reduction. Don't tell me that you would take passive damage on auto attacks (lethal poisons) over the same damage being rolled into, say, ambushes.
5) No clue what you are talking about. Shiv was implemented as fast and reliable way to proc poison, now it's whole point is gone.
6) Ok, that sucks, it was a fun ability that quite fits subtlety role
7) Is this the one that amps your damage on bleeding targets? It's just extra damage, nothing to miss there, it can be simply rolled into ltierally any other passive damage boost from artifact power or talents or by changing "+400% of AP" into "+520% of AP" on ambush.
8) No one really will miss it.
9) Overall reduction in utility, now you actually have to plan ahead and count your ability to kill enemies quicker than they kill you rather than rolling 60 seconds recups (which self-reapply every time you kill anyone) and completely ignore huge portion of taken damage passively.

[FelPlague]

I haven't played beta and probably won't, but can you explain/provide a few comments on what was removed?

idk, alot of dps have pretty good ways to keep themselves healed or shielded

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Tbh I stopped giving a damn today. If they want me to tear apart people with a pocket healer I'll just do it. Fuck everything. Not being able to come up with a decent matchmaking system after 11 YEARS and expecting us to roll over and take it just pisses me off.

pvp was allways ment to be 2 dps and a healer, and now it can even be a tank, healer, and dps, it was never ment to be 3 dps rule the world as it made pvp too bursty, and end in seconds as all 3 would burst one player and banm dead, high end pvp has allways taken a healer to help with those burst moments of the enemy team.... stop trying to impose your own "balance" on everyone lese

[mortry]

It feels like a MOBA.
With this, healers got more important than ever and are basically deciding the outcome of random BG matches among themselves - even moreso than they already did in WoD. Only now, it's extremely frustrating for the DPS because most of them lost their means of self sustainment. God forbid you are matched in a BG without a healer on your team... it's absolutely unwinnable and a complete waste of time with the simplest dots ticking you to death before you reach an objective. WSGs with both teams healerless end in 0/0 because nobody could even reach the enemie's flagroom.

Haha. It's funny that people want legacy servers so bad but at the same time people like OP are forgetting what it was like playing in Vanilla.

Shadow Priests Shadow Word: Pain could literally take you from 100 to 0. A warlock got all 4 dots on you? Either you got out of combat and ate somehow or you died.

Welcome to PvP, Vanilla style.