Legion - Frost vs. Unholy

[Acidbaron]

Yeah raiding heroic or competing for rankings in mythic raids that's the choice you have.

Majority of people raiding in mythic really don't play at the level where rankings matter. Unless the spec really holds back the raid and with the 5% damage difference between each spec that really shouldn't matter if you are playing the lesser spec at high level.

I see changing specs more as something to do to change utility or change how i deal damage, AoE vs ST. Anything else is just people compensating for not playing their spec well in my opinion.

[arkomen]

Majority of people raiding in mythic really don't play at the level where rankings matter. Unless the spec really holds back the raid and with the 5% damage difference between each spec that really shouldn't matter if you are playing the lesser spec at high level.

I see changing specs more as something to do to change utility or change how i deal damage, AoE vs ST. Anything else is just people compensating for not playing their spec well in my opinion.

If only the difference between Arms/fury, Assa/sub, Frost/Unholy and specially Enhacement/ele wasnt SO MUCH HIGHER than just 5%...

[Saracens]

If only the difference between Arms/fury, Assa/sub, Frost/Unholy and specially Enhacement/ele wasnt SO MUCH HIGHER than just 5%...

Right? I think the difference between 318k dps and 280k dps is a bit more of a margin than 5%.

[Acidbaron]

If only the difference between Arms/fury, Assa/sub, Frost/Unholy and specially Enhacement/ele wasnt SO MUCH HIGHER than just 5%...

Theoretical difference != realistic difference in game. Don't know how it stands currently don't invest too much in beta figures till it's actual near final release version.

[Skozen]

Assuming roughly equal dps after tuning, I'll play unholy as a mythic raider. More mobility, 90% damage reduction CD for mechanics, more ranged uptime, burstier AoE, more interesting rotation.

[Acidbaron]

Right? I think the difference between 318k dps and 280k dps is a bit more of a margin than 5%.

5% is 15,9k if we take it from 318K. I'm guessing these are beta numbers and so far i know it's not all final tweaks tend to happen and will continue to happen over pre-patch when they have a very large pool of samples to check results of.

[nephzor]

Majority of people raiding in mythic really don't play at the level where rankings matter. Unless the spec really holds back the raid and with the 5% damage difference between each spec that really shouldn't matter if you are playing the lesser spec at high level.

I see changing specs more as something to do to change utility or change how i deal damage, AoE vs ST. Anything else is just people compensating for not playing their spec well in my opinion.

So you prefer holding back your raid with a lesser spec ? Instead of switching to the better spec because you don't like it ?

It does matter, im not talking about mythic raiding with 795 ring and 740 ilvl+, in talking first month of a raid release.

On mythic blackhand, tell me how many frost dk killed him when it was current ? Not that many if any actually.

Personally i never had to switch to a different spec since im always playing unholy, the only reason i played frost for the first 2 week of mythic hfc was simply because of my loot rng(got 2 mythic wf 1handers) and i didnt have any 2h weapon drop until mythic zakuun. I could have stay unholy and hold back my raid but for me killing bosses is more important than how i feel about frost or unholy.

You see changing spec as something to do to change your utility or way to deal damage(stronger AoE or stronger ST). I mean that's the whole point of it, except when 1 spec is clearly miles ahead(ie: uh vs frost, MM vs surv, etc..)

On topic : I'll be playing unholy, since our kit is just better than frost(90% dmg reduction, 2x grips, really good burst AoE and ST)

[Saracens]

5% is 15,9k if we take it from 318K. I'm guessing these are beta numbers and so far i know it's not all final tweaks tend to happen and will continue to happen over pre-patch when they have a very large pool of samples to check results of.

Even if it's no, and there is some tuning, I hope it will be a gap closer on that 38k gap. Which is 12% by the way. Ish. Which is nonsense.

[Acidbaron]

So you prefer holding back your raid with a lesser spec ? Instead of switching to the better spec because you don't like it ?

It does matter, im not talking about mythic raiding with 795 ring and 740 ilvl+, in talking first month of a raid release.

On mythic blackhand, tell me how many frost dk killed him when it was current ? Not that many if any actually.

Personally i never had to switch to a different spec since im always playing unholy, the only reason i played frost for the first 2 week of mythic hfc was simply because of my loot rng(got 2 mythic wf 1handers) and i didnt have any 2h weapon drop until mythic zakuun. I could have stay unholy and hold back my raid but for me killing bosses is more important than how i feel about frost or unholy.

You see changing spec as something to do to change your utility or way to deal damage(stronger AoE or stronger ST). I mean that's the whole point of it, except when 1 spec is clearly miles ahead(ie: uh vs frost, MM vs surv, etc..)

On topic : I'll be playing unholy, since our kit is just better than frost(90% dmg reduction, 2x grips, really good burst AoE and ST)

Feel free to quote me where i said that

For me everything is on the table and nothing will be decided till later, you are now randomly throwing in things from previous tiers and so on. I do still believe that a choice of spec comes more down to utility then output. One spec with a 10% damage difference assuming it is that much doesn't cripple your raid, if it does your raid has bigger issues.

[nephzor]

Feel free to quote me where i said that

For me everything is on the table and nothing will be decided till later, you are now randomly throwing in things from previous tiers and so on. I do still believe that a choice of spec comes more down to utility then output. One spec with a 10% damage difference assuming it is that much doesn't cripple your raid, if it does your raid has bigger issues.

Let's look at it this way, the next boss has a very hard dps check, but everyone in your raid just decides to play what's fun for them and it happens to be the worst damage output spec they have, do you think the raid leader would be like nahh lets just smash our head on this boss until he falls or we just overgear it. The first 3-4 weeks of mythic every bit of damage counts. Even right now, damage still helps alot, you can litterally skip phases on some bosses, or make a otherwise hard mechanics completely irrelevant.

[Acidbaron]

Let's look at it this way, the next boss has a very hard dps check, but everyone in your raid just decides to play what's fun for them and it happens to be the worst damage output spec they have, do you think the raid leader would be like nahh lets just smash our head on this boss until he falls or we just overgear it. The first 3-4 weeks of mythic every bit of damage counts. Even right now, damage still helps alot, you can litterally skip phases on some bosses, or make a otherwise hard mechanics completely irrelevant.

Again quote me where i said i would play "whats fun", my argument has been from the start that a person playing their spec well will not hold them back if the damage difference is 5%. Regardless of how much you try you can't change the argument i made

[nephzor]

Again quote me where i said i would play "whats fun", my argument has been from the start that a person playing their spec well will not hold them back if the damage difference is 5%. Regardless of how much you try you can't change the argument i made

That's still 5% less damage from 1 person what if the whole raid is doing the same thing ? That's quite alot of damage which doesnt matter now with 795 ring and 740 ilvl, but it did matter the first 3-4 weeks like i said. Right now you could probably play blood dps and as long as you have arcane mage and sub rogue boss will die.

Even if they play their spec well its still 5% behind someone playing that other spec at that level... Imo if you are a mythic raider you should be able to play all 3 specs at the same level and willing to switch specs. Tbh its not like its hard to learn all 3 specs from your class, even easier in legion with the pruning, hardest part in legion will be to keep your artifacts around the same level.

[Raikh]

That's still 5% less damage from 1 person what if the whole raid is doing the same thing ? That's quite alot of damage which doesnt matter now with 795 ring and 740 ilvl, but it did matter the first 3-4 weeks like i said. Right now you could probably play blood dps and as long as you have arcane mage and sub rogue boss will die.

Even if they play their spec well its still 5% behind someone playing that other spec at that level... Imo if you are a mythic raider you should be able to play all 3 specs at the same level and willing to switch specs. Tbh its not like its hard to learn all 3 specs from your class, even easier in legion with the pruning, hardest part in legion will be to keep your artifacts around the same level.

What kind of player are you referring to? Top 100? I highly doubt this will matter even for the latter half of those. For every raid except the very hardcore ones there are more pressing issues than someone doing 5% potential dps less due to chosing not the most optimal spec.
This discussion is by now a dead and long decomposed horse but I guess that atleast fits the dk fantasy.

First you need people to actually being capable of playing their specs well enough for such numbers to actually matter. Overall even now there are not really many players who play BoS properly, even among those who cleared mythic. Fact is, not all players enjoy all playstyles, thats the point of having gameplay diversity. Fact is also that the enjoyment you get out of doing what you do, or the lack of it, will absolutely impact your performance atleast in the long term.
Additionally its a matter of investment to switch specs and play them well. Considering that most raiders don't even play their main spec even close to perfectly should give you a good hint how they will perform with a spec they play less frequently and possibly dont even enjoy half as much.
You could if ou want to idealize that situation and let the full try-hard play this out even argument that you shouldn't even play your current class as long as its not top dps nor provides significant raid utility like mass grip. I mean as a serious mythic raider you should absolutely be capable of playing every class and their respective specs to their maximum potential, right?

Secondly there are very few encounters which are really dps races. Yeah you have your 1% wipes on quite a few bosses. But instead of yelling at your frost dk for not being unholy, you should maybe yell at jimmy and tom who died 30 seconds into the fight camping in fire with one of them lying dead on the ground. Maybe yell at Kevin who still can't, after playing caster for 5 years, manage to deal damage when he has to move frequently. Maybe your raids just likes to camp in fire frequently, so you need ahealer more than you should or your healers just suck and you need to compensate with another for that. Add in classical rotation fuck ups, bad rng and bad coordination/tactics and I promise you that each one of those problems will wipe you way more often and consistently than your frost dk not playing unholy.
Apllying try-harding to chossing your spec but excuse all those other issues isn't making a good case. Reality just looks different.

And the players competing for world first know that and do that more often than notand thats not the kind of people you are talking to. If all or even among the top 100 were mostly raid guilds living to such perfection that one guy playing frost can fuck you up, then the world first race would be way more interesting and we would probably have wa ymore discussions about microing every button presses, how apm impact your dps and all those crazy details which minorily impact your dps but can stack up to significant amounts quite easily. But instead we have steady questions about talent choices, spec choices, gear choices and what in the world they are is actually doing right now in the first place.

Yes it is good to want to optimize your stuff as much as you can. Yes it can help your raid and it should absolutely not be underestimated. But going for the other extreme and saying that its is fundamental for every mythic raider is just nonsense. Neither the extreme of ignoring your performance and say fun >>>> success nor the extreme of try-hard try-harding is any good for your standard mythic or any raider.

[Saracens]

What kind of player are you referring to? Top 100? I highly doubt this will matter even for the latter half of those. For every raid except the very hardcore ones there are more pressing issues than someone doing 5% potential dps less due to chosing not the most optimal spec.
This discussion is by now a dead and long decomposed horse but I guess that atleast fits the dk fantasy.

First you need people to actually being capable of playing their specs well enough for such numbers to actually matter. Overall even now there are not really many players who play BoS properly, even among those who cleared mythic. Fact is, not all players enjoy all playstyles, thats the point of having gameplay diversity. Fact is also that the enjoyment you get out of doing what you do, or the lack of it, will absolutely impact your performance atleast in the long term.
Additionally its a matter of investment to switch specs and play them well. Considering that most raiders don't even play their main spec even close to perfectly should give you a good hint how they will perform with a spec they play less frequently and possibly dont even enjoy half as much.
You could if ou want to idealize that situation and let the full try-hard play this out even argument that you shouldn't even play your current class as long as its not top dps nor provides significant raid utility like mass grip. I mean as a serious mythic raider you should absolutely be capable of playing every class and their respective specs to their maximum potential, right?

Secondly there are very few encounters which are really dps races. Yeah you have your 1% wipes on quite a few bosses. But instead of yelling at your frost dk for not being unholy, you should maybe yell at jimmy and tom who died 30 seconds into the fight camping in fire with one of them lying dead on the ground. Maybe yell at Kevin who still can't, after playing caster for 5 years, manage to deal damage when he has to move frequently. Maybe your raids just likes to camp in fire frequently, so you need ahealer more than you should or your healers just suck and you need to compensate with another for that. Add in classical rotation fuck ups, bad rng and bad coordination/tactics and I promise you that each one of those problems will wipe you way more often and consistently than your frost dk not playing unholy.
Apllying try-harding to chossing your spec but excuse all those other issues isn't making a good case. Reality just looks different.

And the players competing for world first know that and do that more often than notand thats not the kind of people you are talking to. If all or even among the top 100 were mostly raid guilds living to such perfection that one guy playing frost can fuck you up, then the world first race would be way more interesting and we would probably have wa ymore discussions about microing every button presses, how apm impact your dps and all those crazy details which minorily impact your dps but can stack up to significant amounts quite easily. But instead we have steady questions about talent choices, spec choices, gear choices and what in the world they are is actually doing right now in the first place.

Yes it is good to want to optimize your stuff as much as you can. Yes it can help your raid and it should absolutely not be underestimated. But going for the other extreme and saying that its is fundamental for every mythic raider is just nonsense. Neither the extreme of ignoring your performance and say fun >>>> success nor the extreme of try-hard try-harding is any good for your standard mythic or any raider.

It actually the opposite right now. Not to nitpick, but Frost is in a better place damage wise right now. And it's not 5%, it's 12%. That's not a small margin. That's immense.

[Acidbaron]

That's still 5% less damage from 1 person what if the whole raid is doing the same thing ? That's quite alot of damage which doesnt matter now with 795 ring and 740 ilvl, but it did matter the first 3-4 weeks like i said. Right now you could probably play blood dps and as long as you have arcane mage and sub rogue boss will die.

Even if they play their spec well its still 5% behind someone playing that other spec at that level... Imo if you are a mythic raider you should be able to play all 3 specs at the same level and willing to switch specs. Tbh its not like its hard to learn all 3 specs from your class, even easier in legion with the pruning, hardest part in legion will be to keep your artifacts around the same level.

First you speak of handicapping the raid later you moved the goal post to "more damage is better". There's a world of difference between those statements i hope you realize that, if everyone plays their spec and an optimal level you do not need to play the FoTM that sims higher to get a kill. If you are part of the guilds that run 3 raids each week and killed archimode at Ilevel 715 sure, however those are extremes and not something you should ever compare the rest to.

As a mythic raider you don't need to know all 3 specs, you don't even need that in the Top 100 guilds.

[nephzor]

@Raikh

Like i said its only my opinion that a mythic raider should be able to play HIS class aka all specs from the class hes raiding with to a decent level, but thats just my opinion its not fact, and i wont go around telling every dk raiding mythic they are doing it wrong for playing X spec over Y spec, i dont care what spec people play as long as they are doing their job, but if we're clearly wiping to a lack of dps and we didnt have early death then i expect everyone to play the spec that can provide the best output.

Anyway lets stop the discussion its clearly not going anywhere.

- - - Updated - - -

First you speak of handicapping the raid later you moved the goal post to "more damage is better". There's a world of difference between those statements i hope you realize that, if everyone plays their spec and an optimal level you do not need to play the FoTM that sims higher to get a kill. If you are part of the guilds that run 3 raids each week and killed archimode at Ilevel 715 sure, however those are extremes and not something you should ever compare the rest to.

As a mythic raider you don't need to know all 3 specs, you don't even need that in the Top 100 guilds.

Nope in top 100 guilds you need 3+ alts that you can play at a decent level

[jashmaster]

Ayyy apparently blizzard thinks frost is too good atm and is nerfing it while simultaneously buffing unholy! \o/

[friedmudkipz]

First you speak of handicapping the raid later you moved the goal post to "more damage is better". There's a world of difference between those statements i hope you realize that, if everyone plays their spec and an optimal level you do not need to play the FoTM that sims higher to get a kill. If you are part of the guilds that run 3 raids each week and killed archimode at Ilevel 715 sure, however those are extremes and not something you should ever compare the rest to.

As a mythic raider you don't need to know all 3 specs, you don't even need that in the Top 100 guilds.

I'd like to know if you're making assumptions from an outside perspective, or if you've truly raided mythic and believe that only the cream of the crop actually need to know their class properly and/or feel obligated to use the proper spec for each fight. If it's the latter then I'm curious as to what kind of ranking your guild has achieved while letting you maintain those ideas.

[Acidbaron]

I'd like to know if you're making assumptions from an outside perspective, or if you've truly raided mythic and believe that only the cream of the crop actually need to know their class properly and/or feel obligated to use the proper spec for each fight. If it's the latter then I'm curious as to what kind of ranking your guild has achieved while letting you maintain those ideas.

From personal experience needing to know every spec at an equal level is not needed, since more often than not you have weaker links in your raid. I also have friends who raided in top 100 and they rarely needed to move to let's say from a healer to a damage dealing spec. They would know their healing specs and that of alts but to say they were at the same level as their fellow raiders in terms of damage dealing roles nope.

I tend to float between guilds nowadays that do relatively well but don't always clear the tier, i didn't raid near the end this tier as i was forced to take a break from gaming all together. This lack of progress however is not due to not knowing all 3 specs but to various factors often the roster boss plays a larger part and sometimes you simply have to deal with lesser players to fill up your ranks since the recruitment pool is finite for lower ranking guilds, what requires more investment from their behalf into the player.

However i stand by it that if that 5% spec difference isn't going to hold a team back, since if damage is a problem it's more likely them not knowing their most active played spec well enough or aren't geared optimized well enough and so forth. People put way too much focus on 90%+ perfectly played sims and FoTMs, i'm convinced a whole lot more people would be better of just knowing one spec really well. Rather then 3 specs on an average level.

[Deleted]

1% wipes say hello