Legion - Frost vs. Unholy

[psyquest]

1% wipes say hello

this a thousand times.

I am the raid leader of a very old pretty hardcore guild (no longer hardcore), that cleans in mythic, we require players to know all the specs of their class perfectly.

Why?
Because we are a small group and it helps not having to recruit a massive bench.
Because blizzard has not ever managed to make specs within the same class equivalent in damage output. One spec has always been affected by pvp nerfs etc.

And since I am in a crappy guild with this requirement, I can only imagine that other guilds that clear mythic have similar requirements.

note: I never interfere in the spec people play. However if in the raid for instance the frost mage is 30% behind the arcane mage, we have a talk. If the player manage to play his "bad" spec as well as the guy who plays the "optimal" spec in a given fight: no problem with that.

[Raiju]

Why?
Because we are a small group and it helps not having to recruit a massive bench.

Doing mythic 'during the tier' does not require benching regardless.

That being said you exactly agreed with Acidbaron in that when specs are some semblance of comparable (i.e. They're not dropping 30%) you don't make them change. This is pretty normal in non-top 20 mythic guilds for anyone whos being competitive & I'd like to see the logs of people claiming their guild enforces only top specs for each fight, as it's extremely far-fetched (This obviously includes not running classes that are sub-par on a fight)

[ddsad2212]

Op needs to change the title, they seemed to think they were starting a discussion about Frost vs Unholy instead they started a discussion about min maxing vs not min maxing. OP change the title this is very misleading.

On a serious note, personally I prefer Frost play style atm but both seem to be in a good stop. I really like the theme of unholy currently , only played them on PTR so will need to stick a few hours into both on release to really tell. Glad to have two well design specs however!

[Deleted]

Op needs to change the title, they seemed to think they were starting a discussion about Frost vs Unholy instead they started a discussion about min maxing vs not min maxing. OP change the title this is very misleading.

On a serious note, personally I prefer Frost play style atm but both seem to be in a good stop. I really like the theme of unholy currently , only played them on PTR so will need to stick a few hours into both on release to really tell. Glad to have two well design specs however!

Blame the 8th place trophy players who hijacked the thread trying to justify their shitty play.

[Acidbaron]

Doing mythic 'during the tier' does not require benching regardless.

That being said you exactly agreed with Acidbaron in that when specs are some semblance of comparable (i.e. They're not dropping 30%) you don't make them change. This is pretty normal in non-top 20 mythic guilds for anyone whos being competitive & I'd like to see the logs of people claiming their guild enforces only top specs for each fight, as it's extremely far-fetched (This obviously includes not running classes that are sub-par on a fight)

Yup pretty much my point, At some point people also started turning what i said into that people can't play any part of their class well at all. This notion that to raid mythic you -need- not as a bonus but as a requirement to know all three to an equal level is absolute bogus.

Absolute ultimate setups that exploit weaknesses of the fight, stacking classes that is done to overcome the low level item handicap. Now i really doubt any of us on this thread alone is part of the world race.

@psyquest I am fully convinced that if a player can't pull numbers in their most played spec making them swap to something that is more ideal for the fight but less know to them is going to net even worse results especially for the first raid(s), what doesn't really make it a benefit unless you are really hitting a wall. Nor do i believe that suddenly changing a spec is going to make such a difference when looking at changing spec for damage output reasons and nothing else.

Anyway this has gone long enough if people truly believe that, it's their right to do so. I don't

[Bearded Sith]

Op needs to change the title, they seemed to think they were starting a discussion about Frost vs Unholy instead they started a discussion about min maxing vs not min maxing. OP change the title this is very misleading.

On a serious note, personally I prefer Frost play style atm but both seem to be in a good stop. I really like the theme of unholy currently , only played them on PTR so will need to stick a few hours into both on release to really tell. Glad to have two well design specs however!

Not my fault a bunch of elitists decided to hijack my thread. And, had you actually read the first post, you would know that it's not what this thread is about. IMO, these people need to take it to another thread or private messages. Argue all you want, just do it somewhere else...

I'm interested in what "you" want to play, but outside of the original questions, I could care less if you feel trapped in a spec because your restrictive guild forces how you enjoy a game.

I understand the ambition to drive forth within the game and try to be the "first" to accomplish something, but when it distracts from your personal fun, it's more like a job than a game. I'm retired. I pretty much told the world I'm done working. I'm over it. So why on earth would I pay $15.00 a month (or my valuable gold) to "work"? The amount of prestige in it is not only pathetic, but most of the society will probably look at your like you're a big ole' dork. But, YMMV, and you're entitled to feel and play the way you want.

Back to the original questions...

I'm not in the beta (for the first time in the history of WoW...doh!) but I've played quite a bit on the PTR. Here are my thoughts:

Playstyle - I enjoy both. I almost feel like I enjoy Frost better because the thought of being an unstoppable juggernaut wailing away at the enemy with the remnants of Frostmourne really entices me. Unholy seems like the walking/talking embodiment of death and decay. I love it. My only complaint about Unholy is the range. I don't play a DK to be ranged. I prefer to focus on melee as a DK.

Story - I have no experience with this on either spec since I'm not in the beta. And yeah, I meant mostly the story behind the Artifact questline.

Damage - Subject to nerfs and buffs. Last time I played (last week) Unholy seemed WAY ahead of Frost, but from what I understand, pets were a bit out of control.

PVP - I haven't PVP'd on the PTR at all. I'm not a PVP'r. I was hoping to pick up PVP in Legion because I really like the system Blizzard is implementing.

Artifact - This is a really tough one. Frost is Frostmourne. What could get better than that? Well, Unholy, as I mentioned above, seems like the living embodiment of death, disease, and corruption. As for Artifact traits, I think I like the Apocalypse a little better.

Theme - Same as above. Unholy is really grabbing my attention. I'm hoping that down the line Blizzard expands a little bit on the spec specific stories.

[Cempa]

frostmourne reforged has been mentioned in the thread as reply to OP in favor of Frost .. But I thought its a two hander and frost used DW??

[Sacredknight19]

frostmourne reforged has been mentioned in the thread as reply to OP in favor of Frost .. But I thought its a two hander and frost used DW??

Reforged into two smaller swords

[Cempa]

Reforged into two smaller swords

OH WOW that's amazing! Thanks!

[Deleted]

il be playing unholy i dont really like frost that much and i aboslulty love unholy.

[Deleted]

Primary Unholy, secondary Frost.

[Deleted]

Playstyle - if you like frost right now you prob. Will continue to like it in Legion. It will get some changes, but not as significant as unholy.
I like unholy playstyle, even as it was a bit confusing at first.

Regarding pvp, frost deals great damage focused on your targets. UH is more god-like AOE , but not super strong for 1v1.

[Deleted]

Frost seems more "brutal" and satisfying to press the buttons (SFX and animations are better than unholy imho).

Also, i realy dislike using clawing shadows. It doesnt feel as brutal to press. Also, i always feel i'm "cheating" when at range with Clawing. It just doesnt feel right for the class fantasy imho as i'm suposed to be a brutal melee "dead" spec, the embodiment of death itself, yada yada yada, and not pew pewing from ranged as if i was afraid to smack things in the nuts.

Atm unholy feels wimpy and frost feels like a proper dead man melee spec.


IFFFFFF blizzard cloud tune the other talents in the clawing shadows row so that all would be mostly balanced, i could consider unholy, but using clawing shadows as "mandatory", it just doesnt feel right for MY fantasy.

[psyquest]

Frost seems more "brutal" and satisfying to press the buttons (SFX and animations are better than unholy imho).

Also, i realy dislike using clawing shadows. It doesnt feel as brutal to press. Also, i always feel i'm "cheating" when at range with Clawing. It just doesnt feel right for the class fantasy imho as i'm suposed to be a brutal melee "dead" spec, the embodiment of death itself, yada yada yada, and not pew pewing from ranged as if i was afraid to smack things in the nuts.

Atm unholy feels wimpy and frost feels like a proper dead man melee spec.


IFFFFFF blizzard cloud tune the other talents in the clawing shadows row so that all would be mostly balanced, i could consider unholy, but using clawing shadows as "mandatory", it just doesnt feel right for MY fantasy.

try a crit based gear with http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...ht/unholy/MF4M
add to this apocalypse and it is pretty brutal

[Direpenguin]

I love when people use 'fun' as an excuse for playing something worse ... do you think we play the best spec because we hate it? Fun is doing the most damage to some of us, so we use what we need to in order to do that.

I love when people use 'work I enjoy' as an excuse for taking a job that pays less money... do you think we take the high paying jobs because we hate the work we do? Making lots of money is enjoyable to some of us, so even if we're strapped over a box being fucked in the ass by elephants for 8 hours straight, it's all about the money, y0!

[Deleted]

try a crit based gear with http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...ht/unholy/MF4M
add to this apocalypse and it is pretty brutal

No epidemic makes baby kittens cry... but otherwise seems like an interesting idea to try it out, but again, not sure if it's "viable" outside of clawing shadows.

But hey, i'm not in a top 100 guild, so if the diference is not gigantic and its fun, sure i'll bite.

[psyquest]

No epidemic makes baby kittens cry... but otherwise seems like an interesting idea to try it out, but again, not sure if it's "viable" outside of clawing shadows.

But hey, i'm not in a top 100 guild, so if the diference is not gigantic and its fun, sure i'll bite.

If you have enough critical you ll find the generation of wounds super fast and you pop them 2 at a time. Use soul reaper before piping them and you will have the haste buff rolling. Works nicely. Not sure if better than CS yet with full mastery. For leveling I am definitely going CS because it is easier to solo the harder elites.