[Legion - 7.2] Not's Demonology Guide

[Drakile]

Random question, how strong does the demo 2pc seem? I wonder if we will see people not wearing set pieces until they have 4 set with the new stat changes I guess the real question is

Would that extra time on dogs be enough to get a buffed TKC off with 2 hounds packs and 2 full imp packs up, with enough haste maybe, the extra duration on the dogs just doesn't seem to be make or break, but I'd love to be wrong.

[Deleted]

I don't understand your point about pet twisting as demo. What changes happened on recent ptr build that would suggest this is now a thing?

I think he meant: With GoSup you need to resummon your permanent pet to get the buff from the legendary demo bracers. While not technically "twisting" because you just resummon the same pet, it is rather similar to what destruction locks have to do at the moment when they have GoSup and want to trigger Lord of Flames.

[Woz]

Random question, how strong does the demo 2pc seem? I wonder if we will see people not wearing set pieces until they have 4 set with the new stat changes I guess the real question is

Would that extra time on dogs be enough to get a buffed TKC off with 2 hounds packs and 2 full imp packs up, with enough haste maybe, the extra duration on the dogs just doesn't seem to be make or break, but I'd love to be wrong.

2p is mediocre
even without 4p you can get 2 dreadstalkers and 2 sets of imps for TKC

[Kncvasdlsfui]

2p is mediocre
even without 4p you can get 2 dreadstalkers and 2 sets of imps for TKC

I think he meant four dreadstalkers, which is obviously impossible.

[Drakile]

yeah I meant that brief window where we will be able to have 8 imps + 4 dogs (+ 4 Imps from Improved), thanks to our 2p, if it would be possible to get a TKC out with 4 dogs and 12 imps up, maybe without casting DE for the last pack of dogs but even then just barely.

[Amoozing]

yeah I meant that brief window where we will be able to have 8 imps + 4 dogs (+ 4 Imps from Improved), thanks to our 2p, if it would be possible to get a TKC out with 4 dogs and 12 imps up, maybe without casting DE for the last pack of dogs but even then just barely.

15 second cd with 1 second cast. No its impossible

[Drakile]

After doing some quick and rough math, our two piece would need to give us 6 seconds extra for dreadstalkers, only 2 more then current but this is all hypothetical, I just wanted to see what it would take to be able to TKC with 'max' pets 12 imps 4 stalkers

[murdax]

Hi there Not I was wondering your opinion as it relates to two trinkets Chrono Shard vs Unstable Arcanocrystal as my second trinket. I am trying to see which one is better to be my second equipped trinket?

[Darkith]

Felguard's damage increased by 20% on the ptr. Looks like service will be strong

[Deleted]

Felguard's damage increased by 20% on the ptr. Looks like service will be strong

Sounds a lot
Live legion Felquard with Synergy spec, Felguard damage =47k over 2 mins
Play test with Service as above Felguard damage =59k

So not worth talking about really. Sadly.

[Lucrece]

A very large portion of my damage is Demonbolt anyways, and the nerf to synergy will nerf that, while we only get a 20% felguard buff in return, which isn't that great because it's more damage tied to a pet with travel times and the usual AI issues.

[Deleted]

I thought i would share my opener that most times gives a 10 imp Thal'Kiels as an opener.
Pre Pull
DE - POT - DB|start|DB-DG-Hand(this also gets Doom up fast)-DE-DB-DB-DB-DB(by now(6) you should have DE proc)-DS-Hand-DE-Thal'

[Woz]

I thought i would share my opener that most times gives a 10 imp Thal'Kiels as an opener.
Pre Pull
DE - POT - DB|start|DB-DG-Hand(this also gets Doom up fast)-DE-DB-DB-DB-DB(by now(6) you should have DE proc)-DS-Hand-DE-Thal'

The opener in the guide already has 10 imps, 2 dreadstalkers and doomguard...

Also regarding PTR and grimoires:

Synergy: 3+ Targets
Service: 1-2 Targets
Supremacy: Never

[Deleted]

The opener in the guide already has 10 imps, 2 dreadstalkers and doomguard...

Also regarding PTR and grimoires:

Synergy: 3+ Targets
Service: 1-2 Targets
Supremacy: Never

Yes it does but I dont cast doom and always wait till 4 SS for DS-Hand-DE-Thal', just a little diffrent Not

Very interesting about the grimoires.

[Galbatroix]

Hi there Not I was wondering your opinion as it relates to two trinkets Chrono Shard vs Unstable Arcanocrystal as my second trinket. I am trying to see which one is better to be my second equipped trinket?

Unstable Arcanocyrstal is BiS so it should be your #1.

[Deleted]

Hi there. So first off sorry for what will follow. Really.

I decided to brush up the ol' undead warlock from times of yore, and got him to lvl 110 this morning (14 hours ago now). Eager to be over with the grind, I start grinding WQs and emissaries, just in time for morning reset, so I get 4 caches and 2 WB to kill. So I obviously get a legendary because why the fuck not. Pillars of the dark portal it is, I'm happy jumping around in my instant spacetime portals, all is well. I get some gear, and off to LFR I am. After clearing the 3 EN wings, ToV it is, Helya dies, and I get Recurrent Ritual while running around in demo loot spec for a shot at all the relics, not knowing what I'll play. So now I know. All of this in the span in 8 hours play in game.

Again, sorry.

Now that story time is over, I had a quick question : now that my Dreadstalkers are at worst shard neutral, at best generators, should I still play with Demonic Calling ?

I feel like I should, so my main question is this : I'm at 3 shards, dreadstalkers coming off CD. I demonbolt, and immediately cast dreadstalkers to go into dreadstalkers -> imps> empowerment. If I see Demonic Calling procced (often mid cast due to travel time, lag be it game or brain, etc), do I carry on with my cast and end up wasting a shard cause it will cap me at 5, or should I interrupt my cast, guldan then dreadstalkers and benefit from the full demonic calling proc ?

I feel like carrying on is the best call, so as not to delay dreadstalkers nor basically waste a gcd, but I'd appreciate some guidance here

Thanks a lot guyz.

[Deleted]

Firstly, you either had a shitty previous life or your next one is going to be terrible, because 2 legendaries in 8 hours? It took me 20 days of played time to get my second - and I have been *blessed* with the legs and ring.

Depends on your exact situation - if you have 3 shards as Call DS comes off CD you shouldn't push for the 4th shard - DS is your best shard spender, and it's perfectly acceptable to go DS - (3) HoG - DE, rather than feeling you have to go DB - DS - (4) HoG - DE every time. That way you don't ever risk wasting a shard with a proc anyway. It also depends where on your rotation you are - if you're in the general rotation phase you'll find breaking your cast is fine. I doubt it's a significant DPS impact either way - I've not done the maths, but the extra imp casting for 12s is probably a small DPS gain for a single GCD.

However, if you're in the midst of your TKC set-up it's very different. You should have this section of time optimised down to a GCD, so that you are able to cast TKC +/-0.5s of it's CD. Breaking a cast during this section of the rotation costs you a GCD, and it's a GCD you already have ear-marked for something else, so you're likely facing adapting your most important cast sequence on the fly, without breaking your stride. If you drop 4 empowered imps out of your window because of a lost GCD you tried to squeeze back in that hurts a lot more than wasting a shard. If you end up with 4 imps and 2 DS (+2 imps) all unempowered, rather than 3 imps, 2DS (+2 imps) empowered, I suspect it's also going to be a DPS loss.

As for DC as a talent... baseline haste is relevant.

At 39% (12.5k) haste - about as good as it gets right now - you're going to have time to hit 2x4 shard HoG and a call dreadstalkers (with DC if have no shoulders, or with shoulders), but you're not going to have time to benefit from the extra two shards as there's no time to hit another HoG before you have to hit TKC.
At around 11k haste, you'll probably find you can hit a 4 & 4 when DC procs (and have an extra shard you can't use) or a 4 & 3 when it doesn't, so the benefit is... about half what it could be. The only time DC becomes relevant at this point is during the hero phase. You'll be able to push from 12 imps (including Imp DS imps) and 2 DS to 14 imps and 2 DS.
While you're down below 10k haste, you're probably going to want DC all the time, because it's essentially buying you two extra imps/shards with no real wastage when it procs, there may be a sub-optimal haste bracket for hero phases, but meh you'll get 4/4/DS minimum.

For the record I despise DC - it's a 20% proc chance that goes on scream-inducing cold-streaks far too often in those windows where you're setting up TKC - I've fired off five consecutive 4xHoG without seeing a proc (I make this about a 0.7% chance, so the odds of it happening at the exact worst moment that it always seems to happen in - <10s left on TKC - is somewhere around 0.2%). And there's no balance to this as there's no such thing as a hot-streak - it just procs while on CD without any ability to use the proc any sooner, and all a subsequent proc will do is extend the DC window. As such, as soon as you have the combination of shoulders and sufficient haste, it's worth dropping it. Hell, just run without a talent in T15 instead and remember what your life was like when you were a happy young warlock with none of these concerns.

A simple redesign of this talent to work like Agony shard generation (i.e. you get a proc guaranteed if you generate 5 shards during its CD, and at worst, you're only ever 5ish casts away), would do a lot to smooth out its inherent RNG bullshit.

- - - Updated - - -

I thought i would share my opener that most times gives a 10 imp Thal'Kiels as an opener.
Pre Pull
DE - POT - DB|start|DB-DG-Hand(this also gets Doom up fast)-DE-DB-DB-DB-DB(by now(6) you should have DE proc)-DS-Hand-DE-Thal'

There's not exactly a fixed opener because the DC proc is a bit RNG, and because your haste is relevant to how much you can squeeze in, and whether or not Hero/TW has been popped.

As a general rule though, stand as max range and it should be feasible to get in two DBs before the pull (the second should fire off just before the timer hits 0), every extra one you cast is an extra 20% chance for the proc.

As for the other stuff. If you really want to get doom in earlier drop it into your rotation before the DG, don't force a hand in out of place.

The first part of the opener should always be the same - DE, Pot, pre-cast DB (x2) - start - DB to 5 - (doom) - [GoServ/Darkglare] - DG - DE - DB to 5 - Call DS (I'd cast is here even w/o DC proc) - HoG - DE - then it depends on haste/hero for how much more you can do.

With 12.9k haste and TW I can comfortably hit 3xHand for 4/4/2 shards if DC procs or 2x4 with Call DS if it doesn't, giving me a baseline of 12-14 imps, 2 DS and a DG for my initial TKC.

However, there's a wrinkle here. If you run GoSyn, then the proc from that becomes not just relevant but the ONLY IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD EVER. Your pet should hit at roughly 0s, and it usually procs synergy on you which (if it doesn't refresh) expires 15s into the fight. Look at that opener, it's basically 12s from when you hit the initial HoG (+Call DS), because that's how you optimise your 12s window that imps / DS live for, and you've got a minimum of 2 DBs (2s baseline), DG (GCD), DE (1.5s) plus the HoG / Call DS cast (because the 12s window doesn't start until it finishes) - even with ~40% haste, that's 1.45x2, 1.08x2 + 1.08 / 1.45 before your 12s starts - i.e. Synergy has gone.

So basically, you have the option to cut your opener short, drop approximately 2 imps (DB casts) from a hand of Gul'dan and cast it within a synergy window or cast TKC without synergy:

8x Imp (468k) + 2x Dreadstalker (1250kx2) + DG (1250k) + FG (1563k) = 9057k of demonic health * 8% = 724k * 1.4x damage = 1.01m
OR
10x Imp + 2x Dreadstalker + DG + FG = 9993k * 8% = 799k

since each empowered imp is worth about 37.5k there will be a cross over point where synergy is worth losing, but it's the point at which TKC is dealing 187k damage without synergy. The Felguard alone is worth 131k to a TKC, and you'd need between 1 and 2 imps (1.6ish) to make the Synergy worth more extra damage than 2 more imps.

Of course, that's not an argument for casting TKC with 2 imps only, but it shows just how important it is to synchronise TKC with synergy whenever possible. In fact, it's better to skip a whole HoG (ie you could cast Call DS + a shard HoG for a total of 4 imps with imp DS), and it'd do more damage with the synergy buff up than a 10 imp TKC without it.

Hitting it with the full pet army is nice, but it is incredibly bad to prioritise it.

[Deleted]

I dont really agree with this. Firstly Synergy is 99,9% up for your first TKC anyway, but generally it will lead to more dps loss if you are constatly trying to adjust and postpone things cause of synergy. The only time that you should fish for synergy is actually when you are getting imps for implosion (ie m+).

Also you should Doom after the first DB not at 5 shards, because that way doom will tick around the time of your second HoG giving you an extra imp in case you dont get a DC proc.

Lastly, there is a standar opener and its preDE-->prePOT-->DB-->Doom-->DB-->DoomGuard-->DE-->DB-->(DS if proc)-->HoG-->DE-->DB x3 (or 2 if have DC proc up) -->DS (if not casted before) -->HoG (Doom ticks usually dyring the cast for 4 shards)-->DE-->TKC

You allways combo DS either with the first HoG or with the second. If you are new to the spec and its a overhelming at start you should combo DS allways with the second HoG and not care about DC proc or doomticks / synergy.
Like: pre DE-->prePOT-->DB-->Doom-->DB-->DoomGuard-->DE-->DB-->HoG-->DE-->DB x3-->DS-->HoG-->DE-->TKC

That way worst case scenario if yout dont get any DC proc you will get 2 less imps (or 1 if doom ticks before the last HoG)
You can do that everytime. Its not the most optimal depending on what procs you get, but its allways a good TkC opener untill you are really comfortable with demo.
Once you get the summons down you can start working on optimizing it.

Edit: @Demonolotion On raid bosses you get reset at 3 shards when you enter combat. There is no point casting 2 DB precombat. Your first DB cast should end just about the time after you enter combat.

[Deleted]

Firstly, you either had a shitty previous life or your next one is going to be terrible, because 2 legendaries in 8 hours? It took me 20 days of played time to get my second - and I have been *blessed* with the legs and ring.

Depends on your exact situation - if you have 3 shards as Call DS comes off CD you shouldn't push for the 4th shard - DS is your best shard spender, and it's perfectly acceptable to go DS - (3) HoG - DE, rather than feeling you have to go DB - DS - (4) HoG - DE every time. That way you don't ever risk wasting a shard with a proc anyway. It also depends where on your rotation you are - if you're in the general rotation phase you'll find breaking your cast is fine. I doubt it's a significant DPS impact either way - I've not done the maths, but the extra imp casting for 12s is probably a small DPS gain for a single GCD.

However, if you're in the midst of your TKC set-up it's very different. You should have this section of time optimised down to a GCD, so that you are able to cast TKC +/-0.5s of it's CD. Breaking a cast during this section of the rotation costs you a GCD, and it's a GCD you already have ear-marked for something else, so you're likely facing adapting your most important cast sequence on the fly, without breaking your stride. If you drop 4 empowered imps out of your window because of a lost GCD you tried to squeeze back in that hurts a lot more than wasting a shard. If you end up with 4 imps and 2 DS (+2 imps) all unempowered, rather than 3 imps, 2DS (+2 imps) empowered, I suspect it's also going to be a DPS loss.

As for DC as a talent... baseline haste is relevant.

At 39% (12.5k) haste - about as good as it gets right now - you're going to have time to hit 2x4 shard HoG and a call dreadstalkers (with DC if have no shoulders, or with shoulders), but you're not going to have time to benefit from the extra two shards as there's no time to hit another HoG before you have to hit TKC.
At around 11k haste, you'll probably find you can hit a 4 & 4 when DC procs (and have an extra shard you can't use) or a 4 & 3 when it doesn't, so the benefit is... about half what it could be. The only time DC becomes relevant at this point is during the hero phase. You'll be able to push from 12 imps (including Imp DS imps) and 2 DS to 14 imps and 2 DS.
While you're down below 10k haste, you're probably going to want DC all the time, because it's essentially buying you two extra imps/shards with no real wastage when it procs, there may be a sub-optimal haste bracket for hero phases, but meh you'll get 4/4/DS minimum.

For the record I despise DC - it's a 20% proc chance that goes on scream-inducing cold-streaks far too often in those windows where you're setting up TKC - I've fired off five consecutive 4xHoG without seeing a proc (I make this about a 0.7% chance, so the odds of it happening at the exact worst moment that it always seems to happen in - <10s left on TKC - is somewhere around 0.2%). And there's no balance to this as there's no such thing as a hot-streak - it just procs while on CD without any ability to use the proc any sooner, and all a subsequent proc will do is extend the DC window. As such, as soon as you have the combination of shoulders and sufficient haste, it's worth dropping it. Hell, just run without a talent in T15 instead and remember what your life was like when you were a happy young warlock with none of these concerns.

A simple redesign of this talent to work like Agony shard generation (i.e. you get a proc guaranteed if you generate 5 shards during its CD, and at worst, you're only ever 5ish casts away), would do a lot to smooth out its inherent RNG bullshit.

Thanks for the answer man ! Kinda figured it would be a tough one seeing how we seem to work a lot around TKC and need to optimize it to the dot, but it really helps

As for DC, I'm running with 20ish % haste (what with the whole 830 ilvl with 810 weapon I'm rocking), so I guess I'll stick to it as it really feels great when it procs, and I'm pretty jaded from procs dry streaks coming from an arms warrior

And I suffered from the shit show too, my main warrior got bracers and prydaz in ~250 mythic+ runs and full clears of EN / ToV each week ... The struggle. But now I see why some people might like the current legendary system at least.

[SpikeySquad]

So I was lucky enough to get the Spite bracers yesterday. Is it worth holding off a little bit on the opening Doomguard? Usually he is one of my very first casts. Looking over a few logs my highest peak is about 18 seconds in. However, my damage tends to stay pretty high until the 30 second mark before dropping off much and especially if Bloodlusting. I don't use Deadly Grace potions so that is not a consideration.

Not, really looking forward to your updates. I went over to SI from DC a while back but really not sure if I am doing the rotation optimally.

Lastly, on dummies, so a Patchwerk fight, I consistently get a slightly higher result with SI over DC. Talking like 4-5k ahead when it should probably be the other way around. What am I doing wrong? It might be worth putting the what to do on 3 SSs with DC proc in the guide as that question gets asked a lot and yeah the answers often vary!

Also if combining do we do doggies first or imps? I have been going with the first to get the CD rolling earlier but I have seen people say do imps first as they have a cast time to their attack and so doggies are empowered quicker/longer.

These are probably minor issues but something definitely is lowering my damage and I am not sure what.

Thanks for any help in advance.