Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Terrorwave]

Sick of people telling me that BM is not good endgame. Get the right gear and stats and they will rival any MM out there.

[Deleted]

Sick of people telling me that BM is not good endgame. Get the right gear and stats and they will rival any MM out there.

BM is good at endgame. MM is just much better. I do quite good at BM but i can get smashed by anyone with half a brain who plays MM.

I play BM because my main aim this xpac was 5man content and BM trumps MM there by far, don't seen any MM hunter saving a timed run by being the only combat res in the party.

[Effinhunter]

Sick of people telling me that BM is not good endgame. Get the right gear and stats and they will rival any MM out there.

One of the primary concerns with BM for initial progression was that it took 26 traits to get the appropriate single target capabilities to be competitive in the types of boss fights in EN. When we started EN progression, most raiding hunters had between 20-24 traits. That was really the key impediment that made BM infeasible during first week of EN Mythic. At this point, however, 26 traits is far more common, and with the AK increases, it certainly is doable to get to 26 BM as an offspec at this point in a reasonable time.

It's probably fine, at this point, to invest in both. But for progression, because of the toolset that MM has for wide area AoE (Barrage/SW/MarkedShot), it's really hard to beat MM.

[Finbezz]

Sick of people telling me that BM is not good endgame. Get the right gear and stats and they will rival any MM out there.

Your anecdotal evidence is worthless. Your emphasis on "the right stats" is cute considering how close BM stats are to eachother. And, no, you will never beat a good marks hunter on Xavius, Ilgynoth, or Dragons.

[Deleted]

One of the primary concerns with BM for initial progression was that it took 26 traits to get the appropriate single target capabilities to be competitive in the types of boss fights in EN. When we started EN progression, most raiding hunters had between 20-24 traits. That was really the key impediment that made BM infeasible during first week of EN Mythic. At this point, however, 26 traits is far more common, and with the AK increases, it certainly is doable to get to 26 BM as an offspec at this point in a reasonable time.

It's probably fine, at this point, to invest in both. But for progression, because of the toolset that MM has for wide area AoE (Barrage/SW/MarkedShot), it's really hard to beat MM.

This is pretty much spot on. The talent tree wasn't suitable for most top players in EN. People should also consider that BM always carries a functional impediment when compared to MM, which is the way it deals damage has more in common with a melee DPS than it does a ranged. Across a broad range of encounters, BM provides less flexibility. In a situation where both specs are reasonably close, players will gravitate towards MM. Im pretty sure that BM is perfectly able to compete with MM in a single target situation, its just not the best choice.

[Effinhunter]

For those curious about the karazhan trinkets, I'm in a similar boat with you, but these are not quite implemented in Simulationcraft right now. Both the bonuses of the mail chest (which is apparently gated for 8 weeks anyway) and the implementation of Toe Knee's are unfinished.

If someone has custom implementations of the synergy between Mrrgria's Favor and
Toe Knee's Promise or has figured out the bonuses and implementation of the Hauberk, let me know. For now, Toe Knee's has no on use in Simcraft, which means that there's really no way to sim even the trinket pairings properly.

[Terrorwave]

Your anecdotal evidence is worthless. Your emphasis on "the right stats" is cute considering how close BM stats are to eachother. And, no, you will never beat a good marks hunter on Xavius, Ilgynoth, or Dragons.

Oh so you mean the fights where you barely have to move? 3 out of 7...nice

[Azortharion]

FailFish lol

[Finbezz]

Oh so you mean the fights where you barely have to move? 3 out of 7...nice

More like the fights with tons of spread-out cleave? Wow, I seriously have to spell this out. Also what? Dragons has tons of movement and Ilgynoth isn't exactly immobile either.

FailFish lol

mfw you get on people's asses for shitposting.

[Agiliter]

I found simc bug.
non Patient Sniper build Vulnerable increases damage by 50%, stacking up to 3 times.

[Banard]

Question: BM and the Bestial Fury nerf/bug ...do "one with the pack" or "blinkstrikes" look like preferred talent choice...from what i been playing with one with the pack seems to be the better choice now? I miss femaledwarf.com

And regarding MM vs BM etc.... sims are what they are but:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t&class=Hunter


30k is difference is in the realm of, if a player feels he can perform better with a certain spec he probably will perform better. Its also hard to see the bestial fury nerf/bug having that much of a difference. The distance between those specs have been pretty constant over time.

[Effinhunter]

BM and MM talents in current simcraft

I'm running these with 870/900 ilvl gear sets to show something closer to what current raiders are using.

BM Single Target, 300s +/- 20%, 10k iterations


BM Three Target, 180s fixed (normalizing for Stamp), 10k iterations


BM Six Target, 180s fixed (normalizing for Stamp), 10k iterations


MM Single Target, 300s +/- 20%, 10k iterations


MM Three Target, 180s fixed, 10k iterations


MM Six Target, 180s fixed, 10k iterations


These are not meant to be used for comparisons between MM and BM in these situations, only for differentiating talent combinations within the spec. MM with 180s gets a second TS, which is very useful in the AoE numbers. This is also not factoring in legendaries, just 870/900 ilvl gear sets from mythic+.

These sims take many hours to run, and I didn't get a chance to run SV in the time I had available. I'll get to it soon.

[silverstarzs]

^^ ? no PS in any of the level 60 MM iterations

[Effinhunter]

^^ ? no PS in any of the level 60 MM iterations

This is the best performing MM PS combination from what I can tell in single target:



Simcraft source files are updated in first post if you want to rerun these for yourself. Check bottom with the spec links. Let me know if you find any errors.

[Echion]

BM and MM talents in current simcraft

I'm running these with 870/900 ilvl gear sets to show something closer to what current raiders are using.

These are not meant to be used for comparisons between MM and BM in these situations, only for differentiating talent combinations within the spec.

Thanks Effin. Do you think we'll see some updated sims sometime soon with more of a comparison over 5min with MM getting 2 TS's?

I'm leaning towards setting my loot spec to BM at times just to get the belt for another 10k dps upgrade. I think with the ring and belt BM overtakes MM's single target. As bad as some people say BM is, with good gear it seems pretty easy to get 400k DPS which is up there with MM.

[Jayeazy]

DO NOT pay attention to any non-PS sims until you have a build with https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...8bc47ad7b7a7cc

Non-PS builds are getting a full time PS Vuln buff (150%) inflating their value and particularly Sentinel over Explosive Shot as well since its effect (Marked Shots) are inflated by the bug.

[Effinhunter]

DO NOT pay attention to any non-PS sims until you have a build with https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...8bc47ad7b7a7cc

Non-PS builds are getting a full time PS Vuln buff (150%) inflating their value and particularly Sentinel over Explosive Shot as well since its effect (Marked Shots) are inflated by the bug.

Who coded that into the module?

I'll be out all Saturday, but I should be able to rerun these again on Sunday. We should have a build by then. Is there anything else you've noticed that is invalidating/corrupting the module right now?

Are you tjc12821? If so, thanks for the recent fixes!

[Jayeazy]

Who coded that into the module?

I'll be out all Saturday, but I should be able to rerun these again on Sunday. We should have a build by then. Is there anything else you've noticed that is invalidating/corrupting the module right now?

Are you tjc12821? If so, thanks for the recent fixes!

Not me, I just try to make issues if I notice sim numbers being off. Not class specific, but only other thing I noticed is Hidden Satyr and Deadly Grace seem to be underperforming in sims vs logs quite a bit, but that won't change anything important.

[Agiliter]

Found another simc bug
Steady Focus does not work with builds without SW.
If simc simply spam Arcane or MS, Steady Focus ~2% uptime

[Effinhunter]

Talent Combinations for All Specs

Again, 870/900 gear profiles with latest simcraft.

BM Single Target, 300s +/- 20%, 10k iterations


BM Three Target, 180s fixed, 10k iterations


BM Six Target, 180s fixed, 10k iterations


MM Single Target, 300s +/- 20%, 10k iterations


MM Three Target, 180s fixed, 10k iterations


MM Six Target, 180s fixed, 10k iterations


SV Single Target, 300s +/- 20%, 10k iterations


SV Three Target, 180s fixed, 10k iterations


SV Six Target, 180s fixed, 10k iterations


Looks like the SV multi-target is still underperforming. Post 7.1., assuming we've found the major bugs in the hunter modules, BM and MM with full dps traits are still really close with MM pulling slightly ahead in throughput in each scenario. However, the MM toolset for AoE is still strong and I don't see any reason to change recommendation from stock MM build at this time.

For Simcraft Source files, see first post's talent section at bottom of post for each spec.

- - - Updated - - -

P.S. Since 13-18 offspec traits are no longer a discussion area, I'm going to make a different mythic dungeon comparison sim for 24-29 traits for each spec. I'll hopefully have that one posted later.