Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Effinhunter]

7.3.0 Sims

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TOC
1. Legendaries Breakdown
2. Tier Breakdown
3. Artifacts Breakdown
4. Talents Breakdown
5. Trinkets Breakdown

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1. Legendaries Breakdown

The following sims are meant to help guide you into good decisions for legendary combination sims. It is NOT meant to be a BiS listing. It is simply a listing of legendaries and legendary combinations as applied to an example set of BM, MM and SV gear tailored to the spec. You should always sim your own legendaries with the gear that you have available. Your luck in getting Titanforged gear and trinkets will often change the relative legendary and legendary combo effectiveness.

----- BM -----

BM legendaries, Single Target, AotB, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl (Simcraft Source)


BM legendaries, Single Target, KC, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl (Simcraft Source)


---- BM Combos ----

BM legendary combos, Single Target, AotB, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl (Simcraft Source)


BM legendary combos, Single Target, KC, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl (Simcraft Source)




----- MM -----

MM legendaries, Single Target, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl (Simcraft Source)


---- MM Combos ----

MM legendary combos, Single Target, LnL, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl (Simcraft Source)


MM legendary combos, Single Target, TA, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl (Simcraft Source)


----- SV -----

SV legendaries, Single Target, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl (Simcraft Source)



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2. Tier Breakdown

caveats: The tier bonuses can change at any time. Everyone is basically expecting nerfs to T19 bonuses, at the very least. Also, I did not tweak the sets to find a bis here. This is really just a representative tier set with best effort gear matching for crit, mastery and haste. I upped the item level on the T21 pieces to try to find where they finally overcome T20 pieces. I did not upgrade trinkets, rings, etc. All profiles should be 69 traits with JoT x 3 for BM and UA x 3 for MM. This is not meant to compare BM vs MM, only tier stratification without any legendaries. Legendaries may change these breakdowns in significant ways. Sim your own gear. This is only meant to give you an idea of what kinds of ilvls you will generally have to target to replace your T19 and T20 (if ever).

----- BM -----

BM tier progression, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


For BM, T19 2pc remains powerful and 4pc T20 is so powerful that if you have wf/tf T20 to around 940 ilvl, then you don't appear to need to take T21, in its current incarnation, until you have a full 4pc 960 ilvl T21. That's the current ilvl pivot for T20->T21.

----- MM -----

MM tier progression, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


T21 for MM sucks for single target. We all know the 4pc is useless there. It appears that you should keep T20 4pc at 930 and take T21 2pc for 930->985 unless you manage to get at least 4 pieces of T21 between 980 and 985 ilvl. That'll be difficult to do.

The better wf/tf your T20 right now for MM, the better off you appear to be in next tier (at the moment, of course).

----- SV -----

SV tier progression, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


SV Tier 20 bonus for 2 and 4 set is roughly 40k dps higher in sims than the current tier bonuses shown in T21 effects. This may change soon with nerfs to T20, but with current set power, you can expect T19/T20 combinations to remain powerful until you start getting ~960 ilvl upgrades for T21.


Gear Scaling

Not yet updated for 7.3

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3. Artifacts Breakdown

BM artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, AotB, Single Target, 69 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)



BM artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, Qapla/AotB, Single Target, 69 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)




MM artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, LnL, Single Target, 69 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)



MM artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, TA, Single Target, 69 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)



SV artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, Single Target, 69 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)



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4. Talents Breakdown

----- BM -----

###### BM No Legendary ######

BM top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/975 ilvl, 63 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


BM top talent combinations, Three Target, 930/975 ilvl, 63 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


###### BM Huntmaster Legendary ######

BM top talent combinations, Haste/Mast Huntmaster, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, Huntmaster Legendary, Simcraft Source


BM top talent combinations, Haste/Mast Huntmaster, Three Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, Huntmaster Legendary, Simcraft Source


###### BM Qapla Legendary ######

BM top talent combinations, Crit/Mast Qapla, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 63 traits, Qapla Legendary, Simcraft Source


BM top talent combinations, Crit/Mast Qapla, Three Target, 930/960 ilvl, 63 traits, Qapla Legendary, Simcraft Source


----- MM -----

###### MM No Legendary ######

MM top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 63 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


MM top talent combinations, Three Target, 930/960 ilvl, 63 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


###### MM Huntmaster Legendary ######

MM top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 63 traits, Huntmaster Legendary, Simcraft Source


MM top talent combinations, Three Target, 930/960 ilvl, 63 traits, Huntmaster Legendary, Simcraft Source


----- SV -----

###### SV No Legendary ######

SV top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 63 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


SV top talent combinations, Three Target, 930/960 ilvl, 63 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


###### SV Huntmaster Legendary ######

SV top talent combinations, Three Target, 930/960 ilvl, 63 traits, Huntmaster Legendary, Simcraft Source



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5. Trinkets Breakdown

The following are not BiS lists. They are meant to show the effects of equipping certain legendaries on the relative weighting of trinkets (especially RPPM trinkets). These are best used as a guide for what to sim for yourself, with your own gear combinations in an environment like RaidBots, Simcraft, AMR, etc.

BM: Stomp/Owtp/AotB: Qapla | Qapla/Sephuz
MM: LnL/PS/LW: Ullrs | Ullrs/Sephuz
SV: Way/Snake/Cal/SrS/SC : Call | Call/Sephuz

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------ Earlier Sims ------

7.2.5 sims have been moved for posterity : Link
7.2.0 sims have been moved for posterity : Link
7.1.5 sims have been moved for posterity : Link

[Nakauri]

There is certainly plenty to say about "feel" of specs, but this thread is really meant more for us to figure out theoretical limitations of specs, even if they may require perfect and unreasonable play. This is not meant to replace the good work that is going on at the Trueshot Hunter lodge. It's a complement and really just a dump of ongoing simulations being done for hunters in Legion as well as future general guidance that are results from sims.

This is a better location for this anyway, since it has a wider audience and you're trying to help present options and choices. The Lodge forums are more of a work-space and experimental ground and isn't necessarily reflective of what people should act on - especially with the thread focus being on Legion and not the prepatch. That said, I don't read MMO-C too often, so make sure you drop a note for any changes (like gear lists/action lines) that should get into the Lodge threads ;)

[Deleted]

Hello Effinhunter! It's great to see, you're still around. I was a dedicated EJ-Follower since WotLk and your guides carried me throug WoD! So at this point I'd like to say "thank you" for all the hard work and time you invested in this!!!! Looking forward to reading from you though Legion.

[Effinhunter]

Edit: 7.1.5 Sims for Posterity

Notes

All sims are 5m fights, unless noted (generally for multi-target sims).

7.1.5 Tier Breakdown


BM Tier, Single target (Simcraft Source)


MM Tier, Single target (Simcraft Source)


SV Tier, Single target (Simcraft Source)


Note that "notier" is setup to show the difference between the tier and not having tier, along with having common dps legendaries. Note that the tier dps increases for heroic tier bonuses are the following:

BM full tier: 8.1% dps increase over non-tier (calc: 577151/533901=1.081)
MM full tier: 2.3% dps increase over non-tier (calc: 574686/561439=1.023)
SV full tier: 9.1% dps increase over non-tier (calc: 606631/555894=1.091)

The percentages are really close but it appears that MM tier has been a bit overnerfed with the 50->15% 4 pc.

7.1.5 Trinket Breakdown

The following test most trinkets along with ilvl differences we expect to be eventually in the game. dps deviation can be 300-500 or so, so keep that in mind. When selecting trinkets, you want to keep in mind the RNG of the trinket as well as if it puts you in a different dps stratification (e.g. +1k dps).

BM Trinkets: 1 Target | 3 Target | 6 Target
MM Trinkets: 1 Target | 3 Target | 6 Target
SV Trinkets: 1 Target | 3 Target | 6 Target

7.1.5 Talents

Talent Combinations Without Tier Bonuses, Single Target

885 gear profiles

BM Talents, No Tier

BM Single Target Talents (10k iter, 5m, No tier, Simcraft Source)


BM Three Target Talents (10k iter, 5m, No tier, Simcraft Source)


MM Talents, No Tier

MM Single Target Talents (10k iter, 5m, No tier, Simcraft Source)


MM Three Target Talents (10k iter, 5m, No tier, Simcraft Source)


SV Talents, No Tier

SV Single Target Talents (10k iter, 5m, No tier, Simcraft Source)


SV Three Target Talents (10k iter, 5m, No tier, Simcraft Source)


Talent Combinations With Tier Bonuses

895 gear profiles (the heroic tier sets with appropriate ilvl other gear)

BM Talents, With Tier

BM w/tier Single Target Talents (Simcraft Source)


BM w/tier Three Target Talents (Simcraft Source)


MM Talents, With Tier

MM w/tier Single Target Talents (Simcraft Source)


MM w/tier Three Target Talents (Simcraft Source)


SV Talents, With Tier

SV w/tier Single Target Talents (Simcraft Source)


SV w/tier Three Target Talents (Simcraft Source)

7.1.5 Legendaries

BM Legendaries

BM Legendaries, Single Target (Simcraft Source)


BM Legendaries, Three Target (Simcraft Source)


BM Legendaries, Six Target (Simcraft Source)


MM Legendaries

MM Legendaries, Single Target (Simcraft Source)


MM Legendaries, Three Target (Simcraft Source)


MM Legendaries, Six Target (Simcraft Source)


SV Legendaries

SV Legendaries, Single Target (Simcraft Source)


SV Legendaries, Three Target (Simcraft Source)


SV Legendaries, Six Target (Simcraft Source)


7.1.5 Relic Upgrades

Single Target, Relics

BM Relic Upgrades, Single Target (Simcraft Source)


MM Relic Upgrades, Single Target (Simcraft Source)


SV Relic Upgrades, Single Target (Simcraft Source)


Three Targets, Relics

BM Relic Upgrades, Three Target (180s, fixed) (Simcraft Source)


MM Relic Upgrades, Three Target (180s, fixed) (Simcraft Source)


SV Relic Upgrades, Three Target (180s, fixed) (Simcraft Source)


Six Targets, Relics

BM Relic Upgrades, Six Target (180s, fixed) (Simcraft Source)


MM Relic Upgrades, Six Target (180s, fixed) (Simcraft Source)


SV Relic Upgrades, Six Target (180s, fixed) (Simcraft Source)


BM Enchants

BM Enchants, Single Target (Simcraft Source)


BM Enchants, Three Target (Simcraft Source)


MM Enchants

MM Enchants, Single Target (Simcraft Source)


MM Enchants, Three Target (Simcraft Source)


SV Enchants

SV Enchants, Single Target (Simcraft Source)


SV Enchants, Three Target (Simcraft Source)



7.1.5 Stat Plots

Stat Plots without tier:

BM Stat Plot, Single Target (helps determine stat weights)

Scale factor for BM are the same as they were in 7.1. The stat plots are very consistent. agi > mastery > haste >= crit > versa.

MM Stat Plot, Single Target (helps determine stat weights)

Scale factors for MM are going to be problematic throughout the tier, and haste has taken a huge hit. In general, mastery > crit > agi > vers > haste.

SV Stat Plot, Single Target (helps determine stat weights)

Scale factors for SV are dominated by ilvl. In general, agi >> secondaries.

Stat Plots with tier

BM with Tier Stat Plot


After being flush with haste, BM values haste and crit mostly equal. mastery > haste >= crit

MM with Tier Stat Plot


MM with tier favors mastery >= crit > versa > haste. Weapon ilvl is a huge driving factor (not shown here).

SV with Tier Stat Plot


When you add tier to SV, haste gains a lot of value. Mastery is also very high with tier. This means that a mastery > haste build actually works for SV in this tier. This means people can switch between BM and SV, especially, without need to accumulate gear for each spec.


Known Hunter-related Simcraft Bugs

BM
1. Titanstrike secondary stats are inflated (Post)

[Turtel]

Thank you for this , it's nice to see different perspectives.

One concern, however, is that the loot from HFC is going to be overhauled from the looks of things on the PTR. All gear will have an ilvl of 720, and warforged alternatives will presumably increase in 5 ilvl increments. This will significantly shake up the rankings of each piece of gear, seeing as basically the only reason the Cursed Demonbone Longbow does so much better than the Felfire Munitions Launcher is purely because of the 10 ilvl difference.

[Mackk]

Was just looking for EJ a minute ago, can someone go a bit more in depth in what happened? I really liked the hunter soloing threads they had there, hopefully they will rise again here or elsewhere. Good to have some theroycrafting from multiple perspectives around too.

[Deleted]

Glad to see you on here Effin! I was checking out your posts on EJ in the past, sorry that it has died but I'm glad we can still follow your good work here!

[3clipse]

Hey, thanks for doing this. One thing I noticed was that you seem to have the sim set to reapply Lacerate whenever it has fewer than 3 seconds remaining (as far as I can tell). But, Lacerate's DoT doesn't seem to roll damage (based on messing around with it on training dummies), so this is technically sorta inefficient. It's not the biggest deal (difference of 35 focus over one minute, or 70 focus over the whole sim, ~3 extra Raptor Strikes), but I thought I'd mention.

Also, and this could just be the fact that I haven't read SimC code regularly in a couple years, it looks like Mongoose Bite will cast once at 3 charges and then stop? Or does that line mean it's cast when you have 3 charges or if you have Mongoose Fury active (i.e. as soon as you cast the first one at 3 Charges)?

[Effinhunter]

7.2 Sims Breakdown for Posterity (helpful for looking back at how the hunter class changed over the expansions)

7.2 Sims

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TOC
1. Legendaries Breakdown
2. Artifacts Breakdown
3. Talents Breakdown
4. Trinkets Breakdown
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1. Legendaries Breakdown

------ Best Legendary Combos (Single Target) ----

BM legendary combos, 44 traits, 10k iterations, 5m (Simcraft Source)


MM legendary combos, 44 traits, 10k iterations, 5m (Simcraft Source)


SV legendary combos, 44 traits, 10k iterations, 5m (Simcraft Source)


------ Individual Legendaries (Single Target) ------

BM legendaries, 44 traits, 10k iterations, 5 minutes (Simcraft Source)


MM legendaries, 44 traits, 10k iterations, 5 minutes (Simcraft Source)


SV legendaries, 44 traits, 10k iterations, 5 minutes (Simcraft Source)


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2. Artifacts Breakdown

------ BM artifact ------

After the huge nerf to Thunder and buff to Cobra, priority has changed a bit for single target
(41) Thunder-> (42) Cobra-> (43) PL-> (44) JoT-> (45) UtB -> (46) WE -> (47) SC

BM pathways 40->44 traits, CoF, 10k iterations, 5m (Simcraft Source)


BM with tier, 10k iterations, 5m (Simcraft Source)



tldr; the nerf hit the legendary bracers really hard. The WE trait is far less useful. Convergence of Fate is no longer really better than a stat stick of similar ilvl. Leaving first post as/is for a day or two so you can easily see the difference.

------ MM artifact ------

MM with tier, 10k iterations, 5m (Simcraft Source)


------ SV artifact ------

SV with tier, 10k iterations, 5m (Simcraft Source)


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3. Talents Breakdown

------ Single Target ------

BM Single Target, All Talent Combinations, 41 traits, 5m, 10k iterations, Simcraft Source


MM Single Target, All Talent Combinations, 41 traits, 5m, 10k iterations, Simcraft Source


SV Single Target, All Talent Combinations, 41 traits, 5m, 10k iterations, Simcraft Source


------ Three Target ------

BM Three Target, All Talent Combinations, 41 traits, 5m, 10k iterations, Simcraft Source


MM Three Target, All Talent Combinations, 41 traits, 5m, 10k iterations, Simcraft Source


SV Three Target, All Talent Combinations, 41 traits, 5m, 10k iterations, Simcraft Source



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4. Trinkets Breakdown


BM, 44 traits, Talents (2202012|3103031), 895/925 gear: Single Target | Three Target | Six Target
MM, 44 traits, Talents (1103013|1101032), 895/925 gear: Single Target | Three Target | Six Target
MM, 44 traits, Trick Shot Build: Three Target
SV, 44 traits, Talents (3101032), 895/925 gear: Single Target | Three Target | Six Target


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[Deleted]

Dont forget legendaries too. Specially for BM, rest are kinda known.

[Effinhunter]

7.2 Sims Breakdown for Posterity (helpful for looking back at how the hunter class changed over the expansions)

7.2.5 Sims

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TOC
1. Legendaries Breakdown
2. Tier Breakdown
3. Artifacts Breakdown
4. Talents Breakdown
5. Trinkets Breakdown
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1. Legendaries Breakdown

* Equip 2p T19, 4pc T20 wherever possible. If legendary combinations get in the way, this is of course not possible.

----- BM -----

BM legendaries, 58 traits, 2pc4pc*, 930/960 ilvl, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


BM legendary combos, 58 traits, 2pc4pc*, 930/960 ilvl, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)



----- MM -----

MM legendaries, 58 traits, 2pc4pc*, 930/960 ilvl, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


MM legendary combos, 58 traits, 2pc4pc*, 930/960 ilvl, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


----- SV -----

SV legendaries, 58 traits, 2pc4pc*, 930/960 ilvl, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


SV legendary combos, 58 traits, 2pc4pc*, 930/960 ilvl, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


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2. Tier Breakdown

----- BM -----

BM tier progression, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- MM -----

MM tier progression, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- SV -----

SV tier progression, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)



Gear Scaling

----- BM -----

BM scaling, Single Target, 915/945 ilvl, 58 traits, Select Legendaries, Simcraft Source


BM scaling, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, Select Legendaries, Simcraft Source


BM scaling, Single Target, 940/970 ilvl, 58 traits, Select Legendaries, Simcraft Source


----- MM -----

MM scaling, Single Target, 915/945 ilvl, 58 traits, Select Legendaries, Simcraft Source


MM scaling, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, Select Legendaries, Simcraft Source


MM scaling, Single Target, 940/970 ilvl, 58 traits, Select Legendaries, Simcraft Source



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3. Artifacts Breakdown

----- BM -----

BM artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, 58 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 930/960 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- MM -----

MM artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, 58 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 930/960 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- SV -----

SV artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, 58 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 930/960 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


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4. Talents Breakdown

----- BM -----

###### BM No Legendary ######

BM top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


BM top talent combinations, Three Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


###### BM Huntmaster Legendary ######

BM top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, Huntmaster Legendary, Simcraft Source


BM top talent combinations, Three Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, Huntmaster Legendary, Simcraft Source


----- MM -----

###### MM No Legendary ######

MM top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source


###### MM Huntmaster Legendary ######

MM top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, Huntmaster Legendary, Simcraft Source



----- SV -----

###### SV No Legendary ######

SV top talent combinations, Single Target, 930/960 ilvl, 58 traits, No Legendary, Simcraft Source

[Deleted]

You mean the new ones, right? Not the old rings?

I haven't even started sims for the gear that we'll have in Legion.

Yea, new one, topic says legion, not prepatch. Only 1 month left and i am pretty sure there will be max 4-5 more builds, a lot of ppl will be more interesting from Legion, not the prepatch.

[Effinhunter]

I'm not ready for Legion breakdowns just yet. Wowhead isn't even populated with all possible items yet, which would make theorycrafting pretty difficult. I'm focusing on near term right now, then I'm going to try to move to interim (leveling to 110, artifacts, items, early dungeons, etc.), then I will look at the legion raiding scene. Hopefully, I'll have my own takes on this done within the next two weeks.

I'm getting a lot of questions about where sims are putting the three specs for raiding right now and how it's going to look going into Legion. Here's what I have right now for the next month of raiding.


Simcraft source (10k iterations, 120s max_time): http://pastebin.com/Vnz7cqY9

Now, this is just using my own profile with gems/enchants changed for mastery on MM and BM and versatility where possible for SV. The specs are pretty competitive. As Azor and others have noted, it appears that MM has really good tools for handling most raid mechanics and bursting effectively. But BM appears to have some things going for it too, especially from what seems to be going on in sims.

Let's compare the damage distributions in sims for people who are looking to just see how far they can push the three specs before the expansion hits.





BM appears to have the best luck streak. The max we see in sims appears to be higher, and this skews the mean a bit right. But, in my sim here, it also appears to have a really competitive min. This doesn't appear as skewed right as I was expecting, but it is more skewed right than the other sims, and that's a pretty good sign for people who want to try out BM to parse high. If you do everything right, and you get good luck streaks, on short fights especially you are going to look good (at least as far as I can tell from the sims right now).

This is obviously a first look. If you find any problems in the Simcraft source file above, let me know. I know there was an issue brought up about the SV mongoose bite usage, but I haven't had time to tweak that just yet. If you have an example change that we should rerun, please post it!

Edit 1: All gear sims should be updated now with 75 stat gems rather than the 200 stat gems that we didn't get
Edit 2: reran the above sims with suggestions from people in the discord chat

- - - Updated - - -

Added boot/feet breakdowns for all three specs. I'm currently running amulets/necks right now.

It does appear that the surefooted boots are now bis for MM and BM, instead of the old Tyrant boots.

[Deleted]

Isnt steel trap better than impr traps? Atleast on "papper" when u have all trap traits?

Impr traps -> Explosive trap is (350%(+75%) + 350%)*1.1 for 12s cd for 5m fight = 25 traps
Steel trap -> Steel trap is (1500%+ 500%) * 1.08 for 48s (not sure if 8% from art affect it but i think it should) = 6 traps
without impr explosive trap is (350%(+75%) + 350%)*1.1 for 24s cd for 5m fight = 12 traps

with 1k ap with impr trap its 213125 dmg = 710.466 dps
while 2nd case will be 129600 + 102300 = 231900 dmg = 773 dps.
8% more dps (if i am not wrong about something)

[Littlebags]

Glad to see your gonna continue your guide & look forward to your talent recommendations.Also have you considered setting up your own site?I would be more than willing to pay for it.

[Effinhunter]

Thanks for the offer, Littlebags. I have some ideas on how I'd like to present information, but I haven't really had a chance to put it to code yet. I don't think I need anything special to get things going, and MMO Champ should be more than adequate for what I'm thinking.

Sorry for the lack of updates this weekend. A bit of a family situation to deal with. @Nab, your question is more about after the artifact is fully upgraded right? I'm hoping to look into these kinds of things in a way similar to what Woz is doing for Demonology. I like that format of artifact recommendations a lot. One thing I think would be cool is a correlation to dps as you move along the artifact upgrades, so you can decide what you want to do. SV has received the least attention from me so far, so I apologize I don't have more information.

[Littlebags]

Thanks for the offer, Littlebags. I have some ideas on how I'd like to present information, but I haven't really had a chance to put it to code yet. I don't think I need anything special to get things going, and MMO Champ should be more than adequate for what I'm thinking.

Okay.If you change your mind let me know.

[Hiimdave]

I've been playing a bit with the SV APL and looking at what some of the other classes were doing like over on the Assassination Rogue APL. I've managed to gain a bit of improvements with my changes, but I know that there is a lot more that could be done, or what I have could be improved if nothing else.

Specifically I added some pre-combat stuff (which is really just fluff but I wanted to include it anyway), potion usage, and created some action lists around usage of Fury of the Eagle, Mongoose Bite, and Snake Hunter. I also added an extra conditional to the bottom most Raptor Strike so that it would not use it if you spec'd Throwing Axes (which is the build I tested with for this)

I'm sure the Action Lists I made are a good start but I wanted to turn this over to the community to improve it further. Hopefully this is a good start to move the right direction overall.

My version of the APL is here - http://pastebin.com/a0JYuZt6

My SimC options are:
- Iterations: 10,000
- Length: 320 sec
- Vary Length %: 10
- Player Skill: Elite
- World Lag: Low - 50ms
- All Buffs
- All Debuffs

[Feanoro]

Good to see you here, Effin, always appreciated your work on EJ.

[Deleted]

Have you noticed in your sims if Lacerate, Serpent Sting or Black Arrow scale with haste in this expansion or is it the same as usual?