1. #2561
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Here let me help you out...

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#class=Tanks

    Max is not average. Did you really try to compare 100th percentile, aka the top parse of each spec and say it was average? I literally lol'd. 75th percentile is a good mix of players of all types using defensive setups and what not, not just the single mostly wannabe God parse lord trying his hardest to get rank 1.
    and from 90-99% they are just behind DH, so definately one of the top overall dps.

  2. #2562
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    Exclude the ones that have shoulders+chest combo and put them in the end.

    Also Sisters is not a single target fight and at Goroth monks are at the middle (with all tanks being close to each other).
    Just out of curiosity why sisters isnt (Mostly) ST fight? Couse of that owl you get in p2 for some time which you prolly ignore up to around 35% hp and then nuke ASAP?

  3. #2563
    Brewmasters have the best sustained dps of any tank, be it single target or aoe, they don't have any major offensive cd like other tanks which is why they're found slightly behind on fights with really short aoe or downtimes.

    While i don't think max is a healthy thing to look at (especially on fights with irrelevant adds it's often just heavy padding on it because that's the only way your damage is really gonna go up a lot), 75th percentile is really terrible level of play rotation wise, 90-95th should be healthier to look at, and there you can see the only tank that's above monk is really dh, and considering how bad they are defensively i wouldn't consider that makes monk mediocre .

    Talking about Goroth the current rank 1 for brewmaster is terribly low, i'm not going for parses, i was running away as soon as i got my debuff, hiding behind pillar 3-5 seconds beforehand and was doing 715k on a 10% wipe, and i got a lot of upgrades since then, so i think 750k is really easily doable, probably even close to 800k with a really good gear and rng.

    But yeah to close the argument if you think monks are mediocre at anything this tier you're probably mediocre yourself...

  4. #2564
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokuna View Post
    Brewmasters have the best sustained dps of any tank, be it single target or aoe, they don't have any major offensive cd like other tanks which is why they're found slightly behind on fights with really short aoe or downtimes.

    While i don't think max is a healthy thing to look at (especially on fights with irrelevant adds it's often just heavy padding on it because that's the only way your damage is really gonna go up a lot), 75th percentile is really terrible level of play rotation wise, 90-95th should be healthier to look at, and there you can see the only tank that's above monk is really dh, and considering how bad they are defensively i wouldn't consider that makes monk mediocre .

    Talking about Goroth the current rank 1 for brewmaster is terribly low, i'm not going for parses, i was running away as soon as i got my debuff, hiding behind pillar 3-5 seconds beforehand and was doing 715k on a 10% wipe, and i got a lot of upgrades since then, so i think 750k is really easily doable, probably even close to 800k with a really good gear and rng.

    But yeah to close the argument if you think monks are mediocre at anything this tier you're probably mediocre yourself...
    Well, if you actually did read my post you would know that I was talking about dps without specific legendaries. Only druid's Luffa comes close to power level upgrade similar to monk's shoulders/chest combo.

    Besides that I would agree on the last part. I guess I AM mediocre at rolling good legendaries as I have every single one except these two.

  5. #2565
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    Well, if you actually did read my post you would know that I was talking about dps without specific legendaries. Only druid's Luffa comes close to power level upgrade similar to monk's shoulders/chest combo.

    Besides that I would agree on the last part. I guess I AM mediocre at rolling good legendaries as I have every single one except these two.
    Fairly sure that pally legs and warrior gloves/belt are strong for dps as well. Not sure about blood dk or dh though...

  6. #2566
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    Fairly sure that pally legs and warrior gloves/belt are strong for dps as well. Not sure about blood dk or dh though...
    I have both gloves and belt on my prot warrior and I disagree about the gloves because thunder's clap damage is sub-par in terms of overall dps and shield slam is not comparable to keg smash both dps/aoe/range-wise. Even with Devastator's quite frequent procs. Reliable single target dps gain, but not cleave/aoe which is like 80% what tanks do now. Exactly why Luffa is so important for bears, because it's an aoe. I would say increased rage generation is more important here than dps.

    Belt, on the other hand, requires you to have a very specific build AND only works in M+ with addition of some constant aoe bosses like Mistress. It's a good utility legendary, but I wouldn't call it a huge dps upgrade.
    Another thing is that it's damn hard to skip on warrior's bracers because they're SOOOO damn good for sustain and healing.
    Last edited by ReD-EyeD; 2017-08-13 at 01:45 PM.

  7. #2567
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    (...)
    someone is super salty of not having the aforementioned items, thus being striped away of "fun", RNG is such a cruel mistress indeed

  8. #2568
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokuna View Post
    75th percentile is really terrible level of play rotation wise
    Not really. We're talking tanks here, not dps. Just equipping something like reliquary of souls and darkmoon over dps trinkets can be the difference in a 75th percentile parse being a 85th. Not to mention if we start talking about any of the parsed that don't have dps increasing legos equiped at all. You're vastly underestimating the variance of damage depending on what the tank equips.

    It's pretty damn easy to get 95th parses as a tank of any spec if you have the proper gear to do so and try. There is very little skill involved, and it's because a lot of tanks don't even bother to parse whore on farm. That's not saying anything about your real world progression dps though.

  9. #2569
    A lot of top parses are done with a darkmoon deck because you only lose a bit of secondaries compared to a stat stick which isn't that much dps and even a trinket without agility is at best a 40k dps loss, you can take it however you want but currently 75th percentile is just missing a lot of gcds or not doing things properly, to me that's a terrible rotation but to each their own i guess

  10. #2570
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokuna View Post
    A lot of top parses are done with a darkmoon deck because you only lose a bit of secondaries compared to a stat stick which isn't that much dps and even a trinket without agility is at best a 40k dps loss, you can take it however you want but currently 75th percentile is just missing a lot of gcds or not doing things properly, to me that's a terrible rotation but to each their own i guess
    You can play perfect and if you're wearing Lost Abbey, Gai Plin and 2 tanking trinkets and HT you're not getting a 90th parse. Probably not even an 85th, you're looking at low 80s with good RNG and great play. It's not a "to each their own I guess" it's you don't understand the effect gear/talents has on tank dps.

    It's not a tanks job to only do dps, especially when we're taking into account logs that include first kills, less talented healers and major fight length variance. If you're wearing max dps equip and doing 75th percentile you're obviously bad. If you're full tank and doing that, which is being compared against top players on farm going full dps you're probably not bad.

    It's not rocket science, it's actually very simple. Maybe you just rerolled from dps but as someone who has tanked since BC and watched the logs since late bc it's not black and white like you want to claim it to be.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2017-08-15 at 07:20 AM.

  11. #2571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    You can play perfect and if you're wearing Lost Abbey, Gai Plin and 2 tanking trinkets and HT you're not getting a 90th parse. Probably not even an 85th, you're looking at low 80s with good RNG and great play. It's not a "to each their own I guess" it's you don't understand the effect gear/talents has on tank dps.

    It's not a tanks job to only do dps, especially when we're taking into account logs that include first kills, less talented healers and major fight length variance. If you're wearing max dps equip and doing 75th percentile you're obviously bad. If you're full tank and doing that, which is being compared against top players on farm going full dps you're probably not bad.

    It's not rocket science, it's actually very simple. Maybe you just rerolled from dps but as someone who has tanked since BC and watched the logs since late bc it's not black and white like you want to claim it to be.
    Of course you can get a 90th percentile log with setups like that - half the fights in ToS are about pure AoE padding, and if you are able to do that properly due to having a bad raid or being setup specifically you'll parse well regardless of gear constraints.

    Tank rankings are nowhere near as contested as DPS rankings due to how many tanks don't even bother trying to optimize their DPS, to the point where you can certainly find plenty of rotational flaws in 90th percentile logs on Goroth. Not all tank specs are going to 'scale' evenly with the number of rotational errors either, so analyzing differences in performance levels other than near-optimal is mostly fruitless. There have also been plenty of occasions when even 100th percentile logs were poor indications of a spec's actual performance (Blood DKs in Highmaul being the most glaring recent example of this).

  12. #2572
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    Of course you can get a 90th percentile log with setups like that
    Then do it and post it.

    All you're going to see at 90th+ is BoC, Lego Shoulders and 2 trinkets with agility on them. That alone is a 150k dps swing.

  13. #2573
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    Of course you can get a 90th percentile log with setups like that
    No you can't. Especially not now that everything is on farm. Heck, it's even mandatory to spec Blackout Combo for that.

  14. #2574
    90th percentile on goroth is 521k which is easily doable with HT/abbey and defensive trinkets, the reason you don't see that is people who are able to do that don't need to use defensive legendaries on this boss and probably won't because it's useless unless you have really terrible healers or/and you don't play properly, looking at different bosses the only ones that seem challenging to reach the 90th percentile with a defensive build are inquisition and sisters, and it's likely because these fights aren't threatening to tanks and really few people actually use defensive builds

  15. #2575
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokuna View Post
    90th percentile on goroth is 521k which is easily doable with HT/abbey and defensive trinkets
    examples please, ohh yea and lets not forget the triple FP relic cheese, instead of going something like potent kick or hot blooded ;-)
    Last edited by antico; 2017-08-16 at 01:54 PM.

  16. #2576
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokuna View Post
    90th percentile on goroth is 521k which is easily doable with HT/abbey and defensive trinkets, the reason you don't see that is people who are able to do that don't need to use defensive legendaries on this boss and probably won't because it's useless unless you have really terrible healers or/and you don't play properly, looking at different bosses the only ones that seem challenging to reach the 90th percentile with a defensive build are inquisition and sisters, and it's likely because these fights aren't threatening to tanks and really few people actually use defensive builds
    So it's possible, but you won't do it and can't prove it.

    This is why tank percentile means jack shit. I legit lol'd at you claiming it's hard to get 90th on DI. You fucking put on cind and lego shoulders and get max up time in cage and you will get 95th by smashing your head on the kb. Where as someone playing properly and not using a shit lego that just cheeses dps on the fight in cind won't even be close. Just yet another reason why tank percentile means jack shit.

  17. #2577
    If you read properly i said it's hard to get a good parse on DI(and sisters) with what you call a defensive build with abbey and whatever other leggo and a stam trinket, ofc you'll get a good parse with cinidaria and it's also the best survival legendary on this fight since it allows you to easily survive without a healer down which is the only relevant tanking part of this fight on a monk

    Also i won't do it because i'd rather play the right build on farm than play a terrible overkill defensive build to prove some people in here they're playing wrong as it would be kinda silly, as i said people doing their rotation close to flawlessly don't tend to use defensive setups when it's useless, which doesn't mean it's that big of a deal (just like top dps won't use suboptimal talents even if they're just slightly behind),so the gap looks way larger than it actually is

    If you think it's justified to play an heavy tanking build when massively overgearing bosses that aren't threatening at relevant gear level then good for you, but there is a reason players you call scumbags don't, because it's not necessary to tank the boss, and more dps(as long as it's on relevant targets) always helps your raid, you "surviving more" on a boss that can't kill you with proper play doesn't

    I guess it's easier to live in a world where doing dps is scumbaging and you can blame poor performance on not being a scumbag, but that's not how things work, and that's not a good mindset to improve...

  18. #2578
    no honey, I'm not asking you to do it, you'd rather have your dick cut off than replace those precious 3 FP relics, I want you to find me a parse that proves your point. I dont think you're in a position to be switching guilds anytime soon, so your logs are meaningless in this conversation. However being thirsty for DPS isn't something which you should be actively thinking about when tanking. Thou I guess I should expect that much from a hurr durr farm bosses cant kill me person.

  19. #2579
    I'm playing in a casual guild right now, i know the bosses i'll do are/will be overgeared, not using facepalm relics would be the silly thing, i'd run 3 potent kick relics if i was in a top guild and my goal was to kill every boss with 920-925 ilvl, now if i needed to do that with 935+ ilvl i'd just feel like i'm saying i can't play the game properly

    Also i could care less about parses because this raid parses are mostly about abusing aoe on irrelevant adds, that said i still care about my performance and trying to get whatever i can out of my char, if i feel i can't die i'll minmax my dps(on useful targets), that has nothing to do with parsing or applying to a new guild(also kinda sad if you think these are the only reasons you'd want to perform well), i'm also not sure what you mean by thirsty for dps and thinking about it when you're doing the same exact rotation no matter what and it doesn't take any focus if you played brew for a while...

    Anyway i'm not even sure why i'm answering you, you seem to think face palm relics are a big deal when playing with HT when 910 fp relics are a dps loss over 930-940 other relics on most bosses with HT, i don't think this argument can go elsewhere than down a sinkhole of cluelessness and misconceptions...

  20. #2580
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokuna View Post

    Anyway i'm not even sure why i'm answering you, you seem to think face palm relics are a big deal when playing with HT when 910 fp relics are a dps loss over 930-940 other relics on most bosses with HT, i don't think this argument can go elsewhere than down a sinkhole of cluelessness and misconceptions...
    What? No. Even 865 FP relics would be a bigger dps gain than 910 regardless of HT or BoC. Go and test it yourself.

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