[BREWMASTER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[redfella]

Proc some brews during Tyrant trash and enjoy 3min+ ISB on pull. [emoji14]

[fattz]

Thoughts on Combo vs High Tolerance for progression fights on live? I have been using HT for the dmg smoothing but my dps is so low I've been thinking about Combo.

[Leblue]

Combo is your dps talent with the ability to be a bit more flexible into brew generation.

High Tolerance is not as strong defensively as Elusive Dance but the haste component makes it decent and it'll edge out BoC in straight defense.

Elusive Dance is the best talent defensively.

[stross01]

Thoughts on Combo vs High Tolerance for progression fights on live? I have been using HT for the dmg smoothing but my dps is so low I've been thinking about Combo.

Going any of the three talents isn't going to end with a night-and-day difference for dps or mitigation.

My damage has been pretty high without Blackout Combo, though. If you're talking about live, it won't result in that much more damage than anything else, both because the Tiger Palm and Breath of Fire traits aren't in yet.

EDIT: Elusive Dance is pretty hit and miss. Some fights, if you're saving brews for purify, you may not reach the top tier of Dance potential without ISB up.

It's also a little buggy right now. It used to go up in increments of 5% damage and 5% dodge, but it sometimes goes to 6%'s.

[Ampere]

Anyone made an artifact trait priority list yet?

I think it's pretty clear we want to go for Obstinate Determination -> Face Palm -> Hot Blooded -> Overflow (via Obsidian Fists), but I'm not sure what the best option is after that. Is Brew-Stache worth the next point or do Potent Kick/Dark Side of the Moon take priority? Points start to get really expensive before even getting to Overflow

Trying to think of which traits are "skip until later" status. I guess Dragonfire Brew is just pure damage and doesn't gate anything so that's a skip for me.

[stross01]

Anyone made an artifact trait priority list yet?

I think it's pretty clear we want to go for Obstinate Determination -> Face Palm -> Hot Blooded -> Overflow (via Obsidian Fists), but I'm not sure what the best option is after that. Is Brew-Stache worth the next point or do Potent Kick/Dark Side of the Moon take priority? Points start to get really expensive before even getting to Overflow

Trying to think of which traits are "skip until later" status. I guess Dragonfire Brew is just pure damage and doesn't gate anything so that's a skip for me.

Full Keg, Gifted Student, Obstinate Determination, Face Palm, Hot-Blooded, Obsidian Fists, Overflow, Potent Kick, Dark Side of the Moon, Smashed, Healthy Appetite, and finally Swift as a Coursing River is my order.

The golden traits are pretty god damn close to useless. On a single target fight, Expel Harm will deal much more damage than Dragonfire Brew, Brew-Stache couldn't be more minor (and can be gained and lost before a boss even attacks, as a number of bosses have a swing timer greater than 1.5 seconds), and Fortification is a testament to lazy design.

[Deleted]

The golden traits are pretty god damn close to useless. On a single target fight, Expel Harm will deal much more damage than Dragonfire Brew, Brew-Stache couldn't be more minor (and can be gained and lost before a boss even attacks, as a number of bosses have a swing timer greater than 1.5 seconds), and Fortification is a testament to lazy design.

This, 1000 times.

[Xequecal]

Full Keg, Gifted Student, Obstinate Determination, Face Palm, Hot-Blooded, Obsidian Fists, Overflow, Potent Kick, Dark Side of the Moon, Smashed, Healthy Appetite, and finally Swift as a Coursing River is my order.

The golden traits are pretty god damn close to useless. On a single target fight, Expel Harm will deal much more damage than Dragonfire Brew, Brew-Stache couldn't be more minor (and can be gained and lost before a boss even attacks, as a number of bosses have a swing timer greater than 1.5 seconds), and Fortification is a testament to lazy design.

I personally will be going around Gifted Student and going Potent Kick, Hot Blooded, Face Palm, Obstinate Determination. Gifted Student is really weak and Potent Kick is the second-strongest trait there is after Obstinate Determination. The first 10 traits are basically free anyways so I won't have to worry about not having Obstinate Determination with this route.

[stross01]

I personally will be going around Gifted Student and going Potent Kick, Hot Blooded, Face Palm, Obstinate Determination. Gifted Student is really weak and Potent Kick is the second-strongest trait there is after Obstinate Determination. The first 10 traits are basically free anyways so I won't have to worry about not having Obstinate Determination with this route.

3% crit with 100% uptime is pretty good, though, especially while leveling. 3% crit on damage abilities and 3% crit added to Celestial Fortune. Potent Kick is completely worthless while leveling.

A little confused by "strongest trait", though. Obstinate Determination isn't the strongest trait, as it doesn't provide the most healing, the most mitigation, or the most damage. Once you start raiding, it becomes less and less relevant. If you're looking from a pure tank standpoint, everything is pretty bad outside of Hot Blooded and Dark Side of the Moon.

[Xequecal]

3% crit with 100% uptime is pretty good, though, especially while leveling. 3% crit on damage abilities and 3% crit added to Celestial Fortune. Potent Kick is completely worthless while leveling.

A little confused by "strongest trait", though. Obstinate Determination isn't the strongest trait, as it doesn't provide the most healing, the most mitigation, or the most damage. Once you start raiding, it becomes less and less relevant. If you're looking from a pure tank standpoint, everything is pretty bad outside of Hot Blooded and Dark Side of the Moon.

25% more ISB is extremely strong. Having 45 seconds of ISB instead of 36 seconds by popping 6 charges as you taunt can mean the difference between ISB running out before it's the other tank's turn to tank and it staying up the whole time.

The only two traits that buff healing are Overflow and Gifted Student. For Overflow to outheal OD you have to on average take 700% of your HP in damage more often than you dip below 35%, that doesn't seem very likely.

[keqe]

25% more ISB is extremely strong. Having 45 seconds of ISB instead of 36 seconds by popping 6 charges as you taunt can mean the difference between ISB running out before it's the other tank's turn to tank and it staying up the whole time.

The only two traits that buff healing are Overflow and Gifted Student. For Overflow to outheal OD you have to on average take 700% of your HP in damage more often than you dip below 35%, that doesn't seem very likely.

Well he said Potent Kick is completely worthless While leveling, which isn't wrong imo.

[Deleted]

If you're looking from a pure tank standpoint, everything is pretty bad outside of Hot Blooded and Dark Side of the Moon.

Potent kicks is also one of the very strong ones, while gifted student grants little from the tanking perspective (Overflow >>> Gifted Student when only considering tankyness). So going around gifted student for your first 11 traits should be the recommended way. You said yourself that dark side of the moon is strong tankingwise, and this way you will get it faster. (except if you completely skip potent kicks but that would not be smart)

After that you might be able to get Swift as a coursing River, Kegsmash range AND overflow on top of your core for 25 levels instead of 28 aka way earlier.

[Ampere]

The golden traits are pretty god damn close to useless. On a single target fight, Expel Harm will deal much more damage than Dragonfire Brew, Brew-Stache couldn't be more minor (and can be gained and lost before a boss even attacks, as a number of bosses have a swing timer greater than 1.5 seconds), and Fortification is a testament to lazy design.

lol. Didn't realize Dragonfire was that weak, I guess it's still 1/34 for more stam and dps, but probably going to take it near the end.

Fortification is boring, but I guess stronger Fort Brew isn't a bad thing.

Didn't realize boss swing timers were often exceeding 1.5s, they really need to take a look at that trait.

I still think we're going to get some tuning changes when people are at 110. This spec is by no means bad, but it's not intuitive at all. It's going to be worse than 6.0 for less skilled players.

[stross01]

lol. Didn't realize Dragonfire was that weak, I guess it's still 1/34 for more stam and dps, but probably going to take it near the end.

Fortification is boring, but I guess stronger Fort Brew isn't a bad thing.

Didn't realize boss swing timers were often exceeding 1.5s, they really need to take a look at that trait.

I still think we're going to get some tuning changes when people are at 110. This spec is by no means bad, but it's not intuitive at all. It's going to be worse than 6.0 for less skilled players.

Dragonfire Brew used to be very, very strong. On par with Keg Smash, even. The latest incarnation of it does 70% of AP x2 fire damage. Extremely weak, even if it hits everything.

The problem also lies with the area of effect. Previously, it was a pulsing AOE like Hellfire in frequency, size, and direction, but now it's just two more little poots of Breath of Fire.

The only perk of Fortification is that it lasts for a short time after Fortifying Brew is gone.

Some boss swing timers are lower than 1.5 seconds, namely the dual-wield bosses. I've posted on the feedback forums about Brew-Stache for a pretty long time, but, of course, zero response.

- - - Updated - - -

25% more ISB is extremely strong. Having 45 seconds of ISB instead of 36 seconds by popping 6 charges as you taunt can mean the difference between ISB running out before it's the other tank's turn to tank and it staying up the whole time.

The only two traits that buff healing are Overflow and Gifted Student. For Overflow to outheal OD you have to on average take 700% of your HP in damage more often than you dip below 35%, that doesn't seem very likely.

You're not going to be using Ironskin Brew in lieu of Purifying Brew while leveling, I hope.

Taking multiple life bars in damage in a short amount of time is common in Mythic+ and raids. ESPECIALLY with Bolstering and that sort of shit.

00:17:50.078 Saltscale Skulker Melee Miss
00:17:53.128 Saltscale Skulker Melee Dodge
00:17:54.295 Saltscale Skulker Melee 407622 (A: 2309856)
00:17:56.295 Saltscale Skulker Melee Dodge
00:17:58.329 Saltscale Skulker Melee Miss
00:18:00.346 Saltscale Skulker Melee Dodge
00:18:02.345 Saltscale Skulker Melee 398713 (A: 2259370)
00:18:04.414 Saltscale Skulker Melee 397677 (A: 2253500)
00:18:11.462 Saltscale Skulker Melee Parry
00:18:14.112 Saltscale Skulker Melee 391345 (A: 2217619)
00:18:22.163 Saltscale Skulker Melee Dodge
00:18:25.045 Saltscale Skulker Melee 1403894 (A: 1148639)
00:18:27.046 Saltscale Skulker Melee 386177 (A: 2188334)
00:18:29.062 Saltscale Skulker Melee Dodge
00:18:31.113 Saltscale Skulker Melee 378711 (A: 2146023)
00:18:33.129 Saltscale Skulker Melee 1420798 (A: 1162470)

00:17:54.295 casts Gift of the Ox
00:18:02.345 casts Gift of the Ox
00:18:04.414 casts Gift of the Ox
00:18:12.796 casts Gift of the Ox
00:18:13.296 casts Gift of the Ox
00:18:14.112 casts Gift of the Ox
00:18:25.065 casts Gift of the Ox
00:18:25.065 casts Gift of the Ox
00:18:27.062 casts Gift of the Ox
00:18:31.113 casts Gift of the Ox
00:18:33.129 casts Gift of the Ox
00:18:33.129 casts Gift of the Ox

[Deleted]

There's a lot of discussion going on for the BrM artifact for raids / mythic+ stuff. Thanks for that.

I'm probably doing some BrM stuff as a third spec, doing a few instances when someone is in need of a tank. But I haven't played it since the end of MoP, and was not in the beta, so I'm lacking the experience for some good decisions. Do any of you guys have some input about a 12-point weapon (the "cheap" 12 points after the unlocking) for more casual content - i.e. 5 man, at maximum the very low mythic+ inis? As I'm most likely going 12 points WW -> 12 points MW -> 12 points BrM -> WW till the 5% -> Mw till the 5% -> Brm till the 5% (and then the next addon should be here anyway ).

[Deleted]

This Is by far the best way to spent your first 11 points. I would probably not bother with the twelfth point if you want to continue the WW artifact afterwards.

This setup is obviously optimized for tanking, not dps

[Deleted]

After trying all of the tanks in the prepatch, I came to the conclusion that monk may be the one tank that I like the most (even if at times it feels "spammy for nothing" with blackout strike, rushing jade wind, breath of fire needing to get pushed in single target rotations for no apparent reason but dps - though with artifact will change blackout strike and breath of fire to actually provide benefits - I also am not using blackout combo atm, but maybe will at some point).

But I feel that I am taking too much damage compared to e.g. my druid or paladin - I am assuming that this is mostly because I am not understanding stagger properly. Paladin and druid have straightforward AM, while stagger is still a bit opaque to me.

Context: Going bloodmaul mines mythic ilvl 685, I die at the forge boss (the one after the gauntlet), after which I am kicked out since healer (albeit seemed a poor one since he was the first to die) tells me that I don't control my stagger properly, since I was yellow, and even sometimes red, though I purified red as fast as I could. What got me more worried is having tanked the same content with other tanks at the same ilvl and it seemed easier, and also the fact that the previous healer also had some issues with keeping me up (though kiting on monk is godly with roll on trash so that fixed it)

So my understanding of stagger: so I run high tolerance. That means 45% without using iron brew. That means that if I have IB up, I get 85% stagger.
Armor reduces incoming damage by 16% so it's safe to assume that I actually take upfront something like 45-50% damage, while with IB up I take about 10% damage right? So without IB I am already taking less instant damage than e.g. a paladin or a druid with no AM up. With IB up it probably means that instant damage is pitiful right?

So I guess to balance that out, we have that stagger dot to manage afterwards.

So the questions themselves:
1. Having that weak aura that tracks stagger in % (the one sunnier was using before the progress bar, though I am assuming the progress bar shows the same %), what does e.g. 50% stagger mean? I take half my life damage each second? That seems wrong I think?

2. At what stagger should I purify generally? My gut feeling tells me red, or 50-60%. But now the follow up: if I purify at 50-60% should I not use IB afterwards since it will skyrocket it again at 50-60%? But if I don't use IB i take too much damage?

3. When should I be using IB (except for proactively before spikes of damage which is a given)? Should I try to have it up 100% of the time? If hypothetically I have 40% stagger and I have 1 charge left (and the incoming damage is moderate-high), should I purify, should i IB, or simply not use the charge? Should I be afraid to not have IB up?

I even realize from writing these questions that the stagger mechanic is so complex, compared to rage / SotR etc.

So any help is appreciated, thank you.

[PinDrop]

So any help is appreciated, thank you.

1. The stagger percentage is how much of your health will be lost over the next 10 seconds. If it is at 50%, you are losing 2.5% of your health every half-second (that's the speed of stagger ticks).

2. Purifying depends on your health and incoming damage. If your health is high(over 2/3), then red stagger is a good spot to purify, but only if you'll be able to hit ISB when needed(save a charge). If ISB drops while you're taking enough damage to put you in red stagger you'll have a bad time. It ties in with ISB usage below. Basically using ISB for smoothing damage is the most important, and any extra brews you generate on top of that should go towards purifying. This will vary depending on how skilled you are at your rotation-where your brew cooldown reduction comes from, as well as what brew talents you pick.

3. ISB should be used proactively before large hits, as you said, and anytime you are under 2/3 health you want it up 100% of the time until the healer gets you stabilized. You should help with this by picking up orbs, using a charge of healing elixir(keeping it charging, but save a charge for the emergency 35% heal), etc. If the healer output is enough to keep you topped off, then letting ISB fall off and stocking up brew charges for the next heavy damage period is the way to go.

That's how I play, anyway, and it's been working out so far. Going into Legion things may change, I know health pools will be much larger, so thresholds for ISB usage and such may move around accordingly.

[Deleted]

2. Purifying depends on your health and incoming damage. If your health is high(over 2/3), then red stagger is a good spot to purify, but only if you'll be able to hit ISB when needed(save a charge). If ISB drops while you're taking enough damage to put you in red stagger you'll have a bad time.

Thank you for your answers, they've been very helpful.

But I still have 2 questions if you are kind enough to answer:
If my health is lower than roughly 2/3 should I purify at an even lower stagger I guess, at yellow probably?

The example provided got me a bit confused: "If ISB drops while you're taking enough damage to put you in red stagger you'll have a bad time.". But having ISB up during that big hit / high damage will put me in an even worse higher stagger right ? So if the red stagger is the evil in this situation, doesn't ISB make that evil even worse (like taking loans to pay loans I guess ). I guess you mean that if I don't have ISB up I am probably dead anyhow since not staggering that high damage will make my hp drop from the damage upfront?

And as a follow up, are there situations where I would preffer to take a big hit and NOT use ISB before it to take more damage upfront? (Probably this applies for 100% hp, since at low hp you always want to use ISB I'm assuming).

Also, I feel very dumb now, I was not aware that healing elixir can actually be used and is not simply a passive that fires up automatically on low hp. Wow.

[Xiaojin]

2. At what stagger should I purify generally? My gut feeling tells me red, or 50-60%. But now the follow up: if I purify at 50-60% should I not use IB afterwards since it will skyrocket it again at 50-60%? But if I don't use IB i take too much damage?

Yes, purifying at 50+% is fine. Depending on incoming damage, IsB uptime/how much Brew you generate, your current health, etc. you might want to delay purifying until your stagger is red (66+%). Also, after certain mechanics you might want to purify early, e.g., after a tank swap during Mannoroth's Glaive Combo. Basically, you need to learn to judge whether you are in danger, i.e., the healer might have trouble to top you back up if you don't purify, or if you get some time to generate new Brew charges while taking little to no damage (tank swap, phase transition, etc.). Purify when you are in danger or when you are sure that you will have new Brew charges once you need them again.

Personally, I purify when I hit 50+% stagger or when I'm no longer actively tanking. Take that with a grain of salt though, I've got really good gear on my monk (740 as Brewmaster) and I only tank "easy" stuff, i.e., Mythic dungeons or Heroic HFC, which get really easy with that kind of gear. And I'm usually DPS-whoring (to a certain extent) while tanking. My main spec's Windwalker and I play that in my guild's Mythic raid which is why I've got good gear but am only tanking easy stuff.

Also, there is no strict "no IsB right after PB"-rule or anything. You need to use whatever buys your healer the most time to heal you back up. Sometimes that means using another IsB right after PB, sometimes that means to save the Brew charge for another PB. Don't forget your other tools (Leg Sweep, Fortifying Brew, etc.) either if shit hits the fan, e.g., when your Huntard uses Mass Pull (I think they call it Barrage) to add another group or two. Buys you and your healer more time as well.

As a lost note, don't forget Gift of the Ox/Expel Harm (and Healing Elixir if you're specced into it). Add some kind of orb tracker to your UI (you can simply track Expel Harm's stacks with WeakAuras or similar add-ons). A single orb often doesn't heal that much, but summed up over time they really make a difference.

3. When should I be using IB (except for proactively before spikes of damage which is a given)? Should I try to have it up 100% of the time? If hypothetically I have 40% stagger and I have 1 charge left (and the incoming damage is moderate-high), should I purify, should i IB, or simply not use the charge? Should I be afraid to not have IB up?

Use IsB proactively before spikes, when you are about to cap Brew charges, or when your health drops low and you still have at least one charge left to purify if necessary. In your example (40% stagger, 1 Brew charge, moderate-high incoming damage) I'd generally keep that Brew charge for PB unless my health was really low. Such a situation would be well-suited for picking up a GotO orb or two if you're missing enough health to not overheal from the orbs.

I even realize from writing these questions that the stagger mechanic is so complex, compared to rage / SotR etc.

That's true, Brewmaster is more complex due to your (active) mitigation being a result of the interaction between Stagger, Ironskin Brew and Purifying Brew. This interaction makes it difficult to judge when to drink which brew. Other tanks are easier in that regard with mechanics like "press A to mitigate physical damage and press B to mitigate magical damage" or "keep buff up using ability A and press ability B when your health drops".

- - - Updated - - -

If my health is lower than roughly 2/3 should I purify at an even lower stagger I guess, at yellow probably?

I'd say that maybe if you're below 50% health you might think about purifying earlier. At least I (note: am geared and doing only easy content) still feel reasonably safe at 66% of my health.

The example provided got me a bit confused: "If ISB drops while you're taking enough damage to put you in red stagger you'll have a bad time.". But having ISB up during that big hit / high damage will put me in an even worse higher stagger right ? So if the red stagger is the evil in this situation, doesn't ISB make that evil even worse (like taking loans to pay loans I guess ). I guess you mean that if I don't have ISB up I am probably dead anyhow since not staggering that high damage will make my hp drop from the damage upfront?

The thing is that sometimes taking a few ticks of red stagger (until your next Brew charge is up to use PB) in addition to very low instant damage is easier to heal through for your healer than taking less DoT damage from stagger but significantly higher instant damage. This is the complex interaction between Stagger, IsB and PB which makes it difficult to judge when to drink which brew.

If you have someone who plays a healer and is decently good at it on your friends list, maybe try running a few dungeons with him and having him tell you how healing in different situations feel to him to get a feeling for what you can do to appear as an easy to keep alive tank from the healer's PoV.