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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakeez View Post
    Hi,

    Yes cost is irrelevant, but actually right now JV is also irrelevant in PvE since it does only marginally more damage then TV. Honestly I see no reason using it in a raid. When outbalancing the numbers here it would keep same use in PvP but also provide a real value in PvE.
    It does more damage per button press than TV, while doingless damage per Holy Power spent. Thus you ONLY use it to consume Divine Purpose procs, where holy power cost is 0, so all that matter is damage per button press, which is higher for JV making it the best damage option we have there. It's not much, but it's something. The other choices are so niche i'd consider this to be the best survival option too.

    For OP: thanks for the guide, you should note that, at about 30% haste udgement CD becomes preatty much the same as it's duration, or the downtime is well within the margin of one GCD rolling, so you actually can press it on cooldown w/o any issues, having literally no downtime on it, or your rotation generally, at that point ES also becomes less of a chore, making you able to land it in windows which are now there all the time, making it a viable choice. Rotation is very nice and fluid too, but after 30% haste i think prioritising critical strike is the optimal choice.
    Last edited by ThunSaren; 2016-07-24 at 05:30 PM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThunSaren View Post
    For OP: thanks for the guide, you should note that, at about 30% haste udgement CD becomes preatty much the same as it's duration, or the downtime is well within the margin of one GCD rolling, so you actually can press it on cooldown w/o any issues, having literally no downtime on it, or your rotation generally, at that point ES also becomes less of a chore, making you able to land it in windows which are now there all the time, making it a viable choice. Rotation is very nice and fluid too, but after 30% haste i think prioritising critical strike is the optimal choice.
    Yea I know you are right; I'll add it to the main post. I just don't think most of us are @ 30% Haste or higher. I'm sitting at 20% with 745 ilvl. Thanks for pointing out though! :-)

  3. #43
    Guess there is some point where critical and mastery variations would make it like FV and ES , BoJ and BoW or FV and JV would have some weird differnces . Specially if someone would prefer ES to FV talent then it is more than obvius that consumin dp procs with jv would be one way ticket. maybe if someone doesnt go with fv then it would be worthwhile to consume foj buff with jv as well... i mean we are lackin numbers and proper graphs here
    Last edited by Stroggylos; 2016-07-24 at 09:13 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Merrena View Post
    You can get Crusade stacks faster by pooling to 5, JV, Wake of Ashes with Ashes to Ashes for 5 HP, JV again. 10 Crusade stacks in 3 globals.
    Hey, thats good, thanks.

    In the end what I know for sure in 10 yearos of wow with different chars, they only perform really when talents are creating fat synergies. When I see that the synergy JV with DP is 9% ( and for PvE this is just a medium term conbination until we can use Crusade) then this is next to nothing. For me if it is on paper 5 HP it should do damage like 5HP compared to the 3HP skill, how we use it doesnt matter.

    I am afraid that they Count in the heal and the neglectable stundamage for the values what actually is not correct when comparing to other DD specs.

    When they announced Legion Blizz announced that Melees should do more damage compared to ranges and that pvp is separated from Pve. Thats why for PvE perspective Pvp aspects like stun should not be counted. But in the end just my 2 Cents.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakeez View Post
    In the end what I know for sure in 10 yearos of wow with different chars, they only perform really when talents are creating fat synergies.
    True that. Think about early WotLK Ret and how stats and talents interacted. Very nice design there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakeez View Post
    When I see that the synergy JV with DP is 9% ( and for PvE this is just a medium term conbination until we can use Crusade) then this is next to nothing. For me if it is on paper 5 HP it should do damage like 5HP compared to the 3HP skill, how we use it doesnt matter.
    9% is the minimum difference, based on a max damage TV with my gear. Just checked again, and these are the figures (note: including Final Verdict):

    Min TV damage: 47,276.4
    Max TV damage: 53,648.0
    Av. TV damage: 50,462.2
    JV damage: 58,128

    Against a minimum TV hit, JV is 122.95%.
    Against a maximum TV hit, JV is 108.35%.
    Against an average TV hit, JV is 115.19%.

    Interestingly, assuming my gear doesn't change but I get Echo of the Highlord & 3/3 Might of the Templar, then JV will do marginally less damage (!) than an average TV (58,838.9 vs 58,128, or 98.79%).

    In other words, once you get your artefact maxed out you may want to keep an eye on these numbers, because TV may pull ahead with all the multipliers it gets. Doubly so if you get relics that buff Might of the Templar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakeez View Post
    I am afraid that they Count in the heal and the neglectable stundamage for the values what actually is not correct when comparing to other DD specs.
    I think their idea is that JV offers (a) some healing, and (b) something more interesting than "bigger TV". Personally it's not the design I'd have run with, but hey ho.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakeez View Post
    When they announced Legion Blizz announced that Melees should do more damage compared to ranges and that pvp is separated from Pve. Thats why for PvE perspective Pvp aspects like stun should not be counted. But in the end just my 2 Cents.
    I agree you shouldn't count the double damage to stunned targets in PvE, because usually (Icehowl in ToGC etc are exceptions, of course) only weak trash mobs are vulnerable to stuns.

    I doubt we'll see most melee out-DPSing the ranged in PvE however. I think it would be good for the game (my raid leader every night: "we've only got a few melee spots" :P ), but I can't see it happening.

  6. #46
    Nice guide overall at least for the few remaining weeks till everyone starts leveling, grabs an Ashbringer and tries to find his path ....
    What to do with haste once someone reaches 30% ? How well does it scale afterwards ? What talent builds and what type of fights u refer to when bringing up the scale factors ? Guess correlations gonna change dramatically when players hit 110 and start raiding , lvlin their ashbringer etc .... The 3 talent variations of ret pally (single target, loose cleaving, hard aoe) should of have different variations since some of the aoe attacks rely heavily on mastery ...

  7. #47
    first, thx for the guide.

    Then, what is BiS Trinket next to 6/6 skull? the archimonde trinket?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Leyru View Post
    Hey yeah Skull of War 6/6 has the best results unless you get the Chipped-Soul Kazzak thingy with some extra upgrades. The 6/6 Skull is like 25k on my Server. I have been simming with M(+haste gem) EDH, M DC, Heirloom and M (wf) UH; here are the results:

    M LoV & SoW 6/6: 94436 dps
    M LoV & M socket EDH: 89758 dps
    M LoV & Heirloom(vs demon): 89031 dps
    M LoV & M wf UH: 88803 dps
    M LoV & M DC: 87106 dps
    and for me? i have h Lov, h Uh, m EDH,m DC and heirloom?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loewenherz View Post
    "Noxxic DPS Rankings (7.0.3 rankings coming soon)" <- This is on top of the site.. those rankings haven't been updated and still show the values of 6.2.3
    Well fuck... Apologies for posting misleading information :/

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by seeltas92 View Post
    first, thx for the guide.

    Then, what is BiS Trinket next to 6/6 skull? the archimonde trinket?
    I added a trinketlist made with Simcraft today; Looks like you want 6/6 Skull > Kazzak thingy(730) > Archimonde trinket. But I feel like the Libram is much stronger than Simcraft tells me. Don't have the Chipped Soul anyway.

  11. #51
    @Leyru
    Thanks for your efforts. What about the alchemist-trinket "Stone of Elements"?

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loewenherz View Post
    @Leyru
    Thanks for your efforts. What about the alchemist-trinket "Stone of Elements"?
    Ah yeah I completely forgot the Stone. I'll add it asap should be around the top 3-4 trinkets(though I still think LoV is much better) - Thank you!

    Edit: Added!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by saitao View Post
    and for me? i have h Lov, h Uh, m EDH,m DC and heirloom?
    Probably LoV and EDH, sim it! Maybe I can go for it if I got some time later but we are going Nighthold tonight!
    Last edited by Leyru; 2016-07-25 at 02:05 PM.

  13. #53
    Thank you very much for this guide. I got three questions:
    1- Why do you recommend crit enchant on weapon ?
    2- isn't the new version of Chipped-Soul better than skull of war ? considering your getting 745'sh one ?
    3- what trinkets to use with
    a. Zeal for a long cleave encounter ( I.E Xhul. )
    b. pure AoE Encounter ( I.E Hellfire Assault )
    c. Demon encounters

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudio View Post
    Why do you recommend crit enchant on weapon ?
    Whilst crit is less valuable than haste (at least until you hit 30% haste), the crit proc can extend itself, making it more valuable than another proc that cannot last for longer than normal.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudio View Post
    Thank you very much for this guide. I got three questions:
    1- Why do you recommend crit enchant on weapon ?
    2- isn't the new version of Chipped-Soul better than skull of war ? considering your getting 745'sh one ?
    3- what trinkets to use with
    a. Zeal for a long cleave encounter ( I.E Xhul. )
    b. pure AoE Encounter ( I.E Hellfire Assault )
    c. Demon encounters

    1.) Teleros answered already :-P plus it just sims a bit higher! maybe I can create a chart for the weapon enchants later and write a bit.
    2.) The ultimate version of Chipped Soul Prism seems to be best. The sims on frontpage were the 730 version and it's just about 700 dps worse than Skull of War.
    3a.)I used The Fires of Justice instead of Zeal so I took LoV & SoW and hit world#1. I also used Divine Hammer; Justicar's Vengeance; Divine Purpose. If you want to use Zeal though you can try EDH and DC/SoW/SCP. EDH works really fine with AoE (Divine Hammer and friends).
    3b.) DC and EDH/SCP. Assault really sucks as a Ret right now.
    3c.) Well depends on what you actually have; check the trinket list(heirloom is vs. demons)! I personally used LoV & SoW. Heirloom can be nice when you are able to sneak some lasthits to extend the duration (Mannoroth).

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Euroguy View Post
    Just how good is Ret in raiding right now? In terms of singletarget, aoe, cleave etc. I know the gameplay is rather dull but does it work? Ever feel irritated?
    I'm debating on Warrior and Paladin, I've mained Warrior for a while now, but I don't like having two specs and Fury being the superior right now is veery spammy.
    As in at at lvl100? You can see on logs, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8

    Mid to lower half of the pack. Fury outperforms it except at the 99th percentile. Close though.

    Thats with 3 wings aswell. Pretty scary. Hopefully things scale better at lvl110.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    As in at at lvl100? You can see on logs, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8

    Mid to lower half of the pack. Fury outperforms it except at the 99th percentile. Close though.

    Thats with 3 wings aswell. Pretty scary. Hopefully things scale better at lvl110.
    `
    Actually not that interested in dps, more how it plays. People are in general unhappy with the ret

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euroguy View Post
    `
    Actually not that interested in dps, more how it plays. People are in general unhappy with the ret
    Live is pretty fine with enough haste imo - Smooth rotation in general/pretty much no downtimes. Way better than 4.0 and that's all that counts :P

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Leyru View Post
    Live is pretty fine with enough haste imo - Smooth rotation in general/pretty much no downtimes. Way better than 4.0 and that's all that counts :P
    But only if you don't have an AoE focused build It is ultra-slow with heavy downtimes then. Divine Hammer should be reduced by 50% (-50% duration, coodlown, damage, HP gen - then it should overall be as strong as now). Then our AoE build would be fluid as well.

  20. #60
    hi guys,
    i have a question, when i have crusade on and crusade stacks are <= 10 and i have 0 holy power. Should i use tv on 3hp or should i wait until i have 5hp and use jv?

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