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  1. #1

    Havoc in Legion: 7.2.5 Guide

    Demon hunters, disciples of Illidan Stormrage, uphold a dark legacy, one that frightens their allies and enemies alike. The Illidari embrace fel and chaotic magics—energies that have long threatened the world of Azeroth—believing them necessary to challenge the Burning Legion. Wielding the powers of demons they’ve slain, they develop demonic features that incite revulsion and dread in fellow elves.

    Welcome, Demon Hunters, to the Havoc thread. What's Havoc? The best melee in the game. We're the edgiest and if we've gotta rip out our eyes again to prove it we'll do it. This is the place to talk the DPS side of things, gloat about stealing meta, and otherwise hold discussions on how to be the best at what we do.


    Changelog

    10/27/16: Updated for 7.1 (DB changes, Potion notes)
    11/02/16: Updated Felblade / Bloodlet choice.
    01/11/17: Updated for 7.1.5
    01/22/17: Updated Trinkets, added Note on Trinkets
    03/05/17: Updated BiS list
    04/08/17: Updated for 7.2
    05/02/17: Added Critical Chaos relic values
    05/12/17: Typo fixes
    06/20/17: Updated for 7.2.5

    1.1: Stats

    1.2: Gear and Artifact

    1.3 Talents and Abilities

    1.4 How To Kill

    1.5 Resources

    1.6 FAQ

    1.1 Stats

    Stat Weights

    Previously, this section contained non-personalized weights. In this newest build I am forgoing that in favor of just telling you that predetermined sim weights do not exist, and weights given (as in the prior version) as standard do you no favors. Download simcraft (the program and the add-on) and sim yourself if you care about stat weights (you should).

    That being said, in general crit and haste will be our highest stats, with versatility following, but this all depends on your gear and gear level and should not be taken as gospel.

    TL; DR: Sim yourself, or get crit gear.


    Gems and Enchants

    These will vary depending on your stat distribution. Crit will be your choice in all available slots. For neck pieces Mark of the Claw is our choice.

    Havoc Demon Hunters will use the Flask of the Seventh Demon. Potions are Old War (prepot) and Old War (second pot) for the Chaos Blades spec.


    1.2 Gear and Artifacts


    BiS Tomb of Sargeras*
    Helm: Shadowscarred Headcover - Kil’Jaeden
    Neck: Locket of Splintered Souls – The Desolate Host
    Shoulders: Demonbane Shoulderpads (Tier) – Fallen Avatar
    Cloak: Chaos Theory (Legendary)
    Chest: Demonbane Harness (Tier) - Maiden of Vigilance
    Bracer: Bracers of Rippling Darkness – Fallen Avatar
    Glove: Demonbane Gauntlets (Tier) - Harjatan
    Belt: Etched Bone Waistband – The Desolate Host
    Pant: Demonbane Leggings (Tier) – Mistress Sassz’ine
    Boot: Glacier Walkers - Harjatan
    Ring 1: Anger of the Half Giants (Legendary)
    Ring 2: Seal of the Second Duumvirate - Kil’jaeden
    Trinket 1: Specter of Betrayal - Kil’jaeden
    Trinket 2: Infernal Cinders - Goroth
    * A high war-/titanforged item will almost always be best in slot.


    Note on Trinkets: A high level Bloodthirsty Instinct or Eye of Command are better than raid trinkets in most cases. However, they're harder to get high-levels of, which impacts their usefulness. Try to farm these as much as you can, especially now that Karazhan is M+.

    Relics
    The only relic we currently have a priority on getting over ilvl is a Critical Chaos trait. Aim for a high level in both fel and shadow. The Desolate Host drops our Fel Relic, while Shadow is harder to come by (Nythendra and Maw of Souls).


    Rings and Necklaces
    In Legion rings and necklaces no longer have a primary stat. That means that a higher ilevel piece will not automatically be better – look for pieces with high crit and haste over an upgrade that has mastery and versatility. If it’s too close to eyeball, sim it. With recent changes to secondary stats it’s far more likely that a higher ilvl piece will automatically be an upgrade, but you should always sim to make sure.


    Available Sets

    Demonbane Armor – Tier 20
    2 piece - Blade Dance's critical strike chance is increased by 20%.
    4 piece - Blade Dance refunds 20 Fury if it hits at least one enemy.

    Your priority set, as is to be expected.
    Vestment of Second Sight – Tier 19
    2PC: Your Fury Generation from all abilities is increased by 10%
    4PC: Increases your Chaos Strike critical strike chance by 8%

    If you can’t get ToS gear, this is a good set. Get it only if you absolutely cannot get T20.
    March of the Legion
    Chain of Scorched Bones – Court of Stars, Talixae Flamewreath
    Ring of Looming Menace – The Arcway, General Xakal

    2PC: Your spells and attacks against Demons have a chance to deal an additional 35,539 Fire damage

    While appealing with the theme of “demons attacking everything” this set has very limited uses due to the shortage of demon bosses in Legion.
    Jacin's Ruse
    Guileful Intruder Handguards - Court of Stars, Patrol Captain Gerdo
    Tunnel Trudger Footguards - The Arcway, Ivanyr

    2PC: Your spells and attacks have a chance to increase your Mastery by 3,000 for 15s.

    While still a decent set, tier choices mean it becomes harder to value. Useful if you do not have access to high ilvl tier gloves, but have a well rolled Jacin's set.
    Journey Through Time
    Strand of the Stars - Court of Stars, Advisor Melandrus
    Chrono Shard - The Arcway, Advisor Vandros

    2PC: Your spells and abilities have a chance to grant you 5,572 Haste and 30% movement speed for 10s.

    Not advisable for a Demon Hunter. Chrono Shard proc rate is low enough to be useless, and time is better spent farming for a Bloodthirsty Instinct.


    Legendaries
    Chaos Theory: Blade Dance has a 10% chance to grant you Chaos Blades for 6 sec.
    Anger of the Half-Giants: Demon's Bite generates an additional 1-14 Fury.
    Mo'arg Bionic Stabilizers: Throw Glaive deals 25% increased damage with each ricochet.
    Loramus Thalipedes' Sacrifice: Fel Rush deals 10% increased damage to each subsequent target hit.
    Raddon's Cascading Eyes: The remaining cooldown on Eye Beam is reduced by 0.3 sec each time it deals a critical hit.
    Delusions of Grandeur: The remaining cooldown on Metamorphosis is reduced by 1 sec for every 30 Fury you spend.
    Soul of the Slayer: Grants the Talent First Blood.

    Artifact - Twinblades of the Deceiver
    "Make examples of those foolish enough to oppose you, and the rest of their kind will grovel at your feet."


    This image shows the optimal path for Artifact progression:


    image courtesy kib


    For traits added in 7.2 this is the recommended guide. However, those playing Demonic will find Chaos Vision and Unleashed Demons more useful after Critical Chaos. Pick accordingly.


    image courtesy kib




    1.3 Abilities and Talents

    Abilities

    Cooldowns
    Metamorphosis:
    Leap into the air and land with explosive force, dealing (200% of Attack power) Chaos damage to enemies within 8 yds, and stunning them for 3 sec. Players are Dazed for 3 sec instead. Upon landing, you are transformed into a hellish demon for 30 sec, greatly empowering your Chaos Strike and Blade Dance abilities, gaining 30% Leech, and 25% Haste.

    Darkness: Summons darkness around you in an 8 yd radius, cloaking friendly targets and granting a 20% chance to avoid all damage from an attack. Lasts 8 sec. 3 min CD.

    Blur: Increases your chance to dodge by 50% and reduces all damage taken by 35% for 10 sec. 1 min CD.

    Damage
    Blade Dance: Strike all nearby enemies for (3 * 96% + 288%) Physical damage, and increase your chance to dodge by 100% for 1 sec.

    - - - Strike all nearby enemies for (3 * 143% + 429%) Physical damage, and increase your Dodge chance by 100% for 1 sec. 8s CD.

    Chaos Strike: Slice your target for (305% + 485%) Chaos damage. Critical strikes refund 20 Fury.

    - - - Annihilation: Slice your target for (397% + 630%) Chaos damage. Critical strikes refund 20 Fury.

    Demon's Bite: Quickly attack for 260% Physical damage. Generates 20 to 30 Fury.

    Eye Beam: Blasts all enemies directly in front of you for ((55% of Attack power) * 10) Chaos damage. Eye Beam always critically strikes. 45s CD.

    Fury of the Illidari:
    Throws the Twinblades of the Deceiver in a whirlwind of energy, causing (7 * (112% + 112%)) Chaos damage over 3 sec to all nearby enemies. 1 min CD.

    Throw Glaive: Throw a demonic glaive at the target, dealing 490% Physical damage. The glaive can ricochet to 2 additional enemies within 10 yards. 10s CD.

    Movement
    Vengeful Retreat: Remove all snares and vault away. Nearby enemies take 100% Physical damage and have their movement speed reduced by 70% for 3 sec. 25s CD.

    Fel Rush: Rush forward, incinerating anything in your path for (294% of Attack power) Chaos damage. 2 charges. 10s CD.


    Utility
    Chaos Nova: Unleash an eruption of fel energy, stunning all nearby enemies for 5 sec and dealing (125% of Attack power) Chaos damage. 1 min CD.

    Consume Magic: Interrupts the enemy's spellcasting and locks them from that school of magic for 3 sec. 15s CD.


    Talents

    As of patch 7.2.5, Demonic builds have begun to lose value. Chaos Blades is once again the go-to, though this (again) depends on gear and situation. T20 makes Chaos Blades mandatory for all raid builds, however.

    Tier 99

    Chaos Blades build: Felblade
    Demonic build: Blind Fury

    While nothing has changed in regards to the Chaos Blades build, the new trait Chaotic Onslaught has made a viable Demonic build. This allows for some choice in this row, but said choice is build reliant and cannot cross-over.

    Tier 100

    Chaos Blades build: Demon Blades
    Demonic build: Demonic Appetite

    Chaotic Onslaught makes pushing Chaos Strike ever-more rewarding, allowing Demonic to leverage the increase of souls from this. Chaos Blades, on the other hand, is still dependent on the passive fury from Demon Blades to take advantage.

    Tier 102

    Chaos Blades build: First Blood
    Demonic build: Chaos Cleave

    While Chaos Blades build still utilizes the heavy hits of Death Sweep during its burst windows Demonic takes advantage of the synergy with Chaotic Onslaught and Demonic appetite to hit Chaos Strike more.

    Tier 104

    Player Choice. As Netherwalk and Desperate Instincts no longer replace Blur and Meta has in-built leech any choices are viable and can be selected based on encounter. For Netherwalk a cancel-aura macro may come in handy to prevent DPS loss. For Demonic players Soul Rending allows for some slack with easier mechanics as self-healing will be far more prevelant, but should not be relied upon to skip all mechanics.

    Tier 106

    Chaos Blades build: Nemesis
    Demonic build: Nemesis

    For many fights this requires smart Nemesis positioning, as placing it on an add that is not the same creature-type as others will result in a massive dps loss, so check your creature types before using. Build builds take advantage of Nemesis for their burst windows, so make sure you’re timing Nemesis correctly rather than blindly using it on cooldown.

    Tier 108

    Chaos Blades build: Master of the Glaive OR Unleashed Power
    Demonic build: Demon Reborn OR Unleashed Power.

    For Chaos Blades, the choice comes largely down to Anger or no Anger as well as whether or not adds will need to be stunned. MoTG comes in very handy for fury droughts, but has little use otherwise in raids. For Demonic, Demon Reborn allows an guaranteed Meta extension, but this can also be obtained by stunning adds for extra orbs. Remember that Meta (cooldown) can only be extended once per use.

    Tier 110

    Chaos Blades: Chaos Blades
    Demonic build: Demonic

    Pretty self-explanatory here; you take the titular ability for each spec.



    1.4 How to Kill

    Demonic build utilizes high (50%+) uptime of Metamorphosis. To achieve this, the Demon Hunter Shuffle is recommended. To achieve this, strafe back and forth while attacking to pick up souls that would otherwise simply sit where spawned. Optimal use will have the player doing so when at low fury or when enough have spawned to use another eye beam rather than at all times. The Demonic ability list is as follows: hit chaos strike for aoe, single target, cleave, and any other situation. Using Fel Rush is not useful damage, as you have Demon’s Bite to hit for fury, nor is Throw Glaive.

    Chaos Blades should be used with Metamorphosis and Nemesis (Chaos Blades and Nemesis can be macro’d for ease of use) whenever possible. For a First Blood build especially prioritize Death Sweep by putting it on cooldown BEFORE using abilities such as Fury of the Illidari so it can recharge within the Chaos Blade. Ideally you will cast three Death Sweeps within a Chaos Blades window.



    While not as strongly competitive, some players may find a momentum build useful for M+. A momentum build prioritizes the upkeep of the momentum buff. While holding a charge of Fel Rush or Vengeful Retreat for the perfect time is very tempting every second spent not off cooldown reduces the amount of total momentum uptime. Paths for Fel Rush and Vengeful Retreat should also be used with care for maximum melee uptime. This illustration shows how this can be done for most bosses (master the camera turn!):

    Momentum Movesets (courtesy Kib):
    http://i.imgur.com/izigphk.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/HmuNCBu.gif


    By far the most important thing about Momentum is you need to know your raid encounters. Momentum is not a build you can stroll up into a fight without having done any research as you will be moving in and out of tank and other melee space. Do your research. You should always be doing your research anyway but in this case your ability to be an effective DPS will depend on knowing when you can and cannot use Momentum without causing your death or a raid wipe.

    A Note on Fel Rush

    Fel Rush does not benefit from the Momentum buff it puts up. This means that, in an AoE situation, clipping a prior momentum buff can be a dps increase, but only if every other AoE has already been placed on cooldown. In normal use you should never clip the momentum buff in any way given that Momentum is not pandemic, and will overwrite your buff rather than add to it.




    1.5 Resources

    WeakAuras

    If you're not using WeakAuras… now is a perfect time to start. You'll want to use them (or some sort of buff tracker) for Momentum and Fel Barrage at the very least. If you're unfamiliar with WA (or don't care to make your own!) you can find a great many for both Demon Hunter specs here:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...k-Auras-Thread

    Discord

    https://discord.gg/0enuZ4FBFlxVCokS - Marduum
    https://discord.gg/zGGkNGC – The Fel Hammer

    Guides

    Icy Veins (By Wordup)

    http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/havoc-d...-pve-dps-guide

    Wowhead – Demon Hunter Guide (by Kib)

    http://www.wowhead.com/havoc-demon-hunter-guide

    Sims

    Sims by Zarania

    https://zarania.github.io/


    German Translation
    http://eu.battle.net/forums/de/wow/topic/17613152115


    1.6 FAQ

    Should I roll Demon Hunter?

    Yes. Also, order a salad from pizza hut.

    Do I have to take <momentum / demon blades / other talent>

    For optimal damage, maybe (depending on your situation). For most players the difference will be negligible, as momentum requires high maximum uptime to perform better than nemesis. In short, if you're not in a top 100 guild.. pick what you want and what you can play. A Nemesis build will outperform a Momentum build for a player if they are not able to maintain correct Momentum uptime, which is an important consideration.

    Should I learn Nemesis and Momentum?

    Yes. For fights like Star Augar (particularly on mythic) Momentum becomes very difficult, if not impossible, to maintain optimal uptime without causing raid wipes. Knowing how to play Nemesis will help greatly before you pull the boss. This may also come in handy on Krosus, as it is quite possible to fling yourself from the ledge – though the wise Demon Hunter will position themselves to rush sideways rather than forward.

    What can I transmog glaives into?

    You can transmog your warglaives into one-handed axes, swords, and glaives.
    Last edited by Vanyali; 2017-06-21 at 08:58 PM.

  2. #2
    for what it's worth all of the items from nighthold mythic just got changed to 905 ilvl, so bis lists might need adjustments. good work, duder.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by neck deep View Post
    for what it's worth all of the items from nighthold mythic just got changed to 905 ilvl, so bis lists might need adjustments. good work, duder.
    Yeh, they updated after I finished my spreadsheet so I'm gonna have to redo BiS lists when I update that. Rings & neck might stay the same though, because of no primary, but the bracers will adjust.

  4. #4
    Love your work Van, this should be stickied if not already.
    Demon Hunter Chakan [URL=https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/frostmourne/chàkan[/URL]
    Death Knight Eosforos [URL=https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/frostmourne/eosforos[/URL]

  5. #5
    Really nice guide and a lot f work went into it, although i kinda question the effort for a fair chunk of it when tuning isnt finished yet and a lot could change re talents, but still massive props to you man.

    1 input, technically wouldn't crafted gear be BiS pre-raid if you upgraded it with oblitrum? costly and a bit time consuming yes, but it shouldn't be too hard to atleast get 4 or 5 pieces with a perfect stat roll (destroying the bad rolls for more oblitrum) before raids open if not more if you are a LW, or even just buying them off the AH and upgrading them yourself.

  6. #6
    Do you intend to add relics, what you should aim for .. I know ilvl scales better than the actual "trait" you get, but I think it would be nice to know what relics you should start going for

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeket View Post
    Really nice guide and a lot f work went into it, although i kinda question the effort for a fair chunk of it when tuning isnt finished yet and a lot could change re talents, but still massive props to you man.

    1 input, technically wouldn't crafted gear be BiS pre-raid if you upgraded it with oblitrum? costly and a bit time consuming yes, but it shouldn't be too hard to atleast get 4 or 5 pieces with a perfect stat roll (destroying the bad rolls for more oblitrum) before raids open if not more if you are a LW, or even just buying them off the AH and upgrading them yourself.
    It's easy to update in that case, and most shouldn't affect it *too* much. Crit won't get bad, mastery COULD get good, but that's a pretty big mechanical change so it's pretty safe for now.

    Per crafting gear, I'll probably add that a perfectly rolled & upgraded can be substituted in, as finding all possible rolls and combinations possible is a looot of gear to add.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakanDH View Post
    Love your work Van, this should be stickied if not already.
    Glad you like

    Quote Originally Posted by Yodai View Post
    Do you intend to add relics, what you should aim for .. I know ilvl scales better than the actual "trait" you get, but I think it would be nice to know what relics you should start going for
    Debating. As you've said, the ilvl is best, so there's not as much of a choice as it seems. For the case of same-ilvl relics there's a section in the sims that shows where artifact traits are ranked, so you can pick based on that

  8. #8
    As it stands Sharpened Glaives and Critical Chaos or are best minor artifact traits, so aiming to buff them is probably a win (not forsaking the ilvl boost ofc)

  9. #9
    the best relics from mythic nighthold are going to be 2 of the krosus relics and the shadow one from high botanist, for the time being.

    from emerald nightmare the sharpened glaive shadow relic and demons bite boost fel are the best given even item levels. emerald nightmare doesn't have much in the way of choice

  10. #10
    Giving this a Sticky (and I'll wander over to Munkky's and give that one a Sticky too). Thanks Van!
    Orloth SilverEye
    <Demon Hunter Moderator>

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Unkhrahuun the Atoned's Avatar
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    I noticed almost nothing in regards to Demonic whatsoever, so is it safe to assume that this guide isn't aimed at plebs like myself, and rather to those who opt to play in progression PvE content?
    The Dead City... it... calls to me...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Unanilnomen View Post
    I noticed almost nothing in regards to Demonic whatsoever, so is it safe to assume that this guide isn't aimed at plebs like myself, and rather to those who opt to play in progression PvE content?
    More or less, pleb. <3

    on the reals, I'll probably add demonic weights in at some point, but the demonic rotation follows the same prio list as everything else (i mean, you're obviously not going to have fbarrage of course), and doesn't much change the rotation. It's still actually very good for solo survival, especially in suramar with the elites

  13. #13
    Bloodsail Admiral Unkhrahuun the Atoned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    More or less, pleb. <3

    on the reals, I'll probably add demonic weights in at some point, but the demonic rotation follows the same prio list as everything else (i mean, you're obviously not going to have fbarrage of course), and doesn't much change the rotation. It's still actually very good for solo survival, especially in suramar with the elites
    That's been my experience, lol.

    Glided into the Moonguard place from the ledge on Highmountain, found myself having to mow down 7+ mobs at a time because I had no fucking idea where I was going, just that I wanted to go there because of reasons.

    My current Pleb build will probably stay as Fel Mastery/ Demonic Appetite / Felblade / SR / Fel Eruption (lol 500k heals during Demonic) / MotG/ Demonic.

    I've tried other combos and none of them quite measured up to what I got there. I also have rather shit gear presently (like, 820 something. Pretty much just world quest gear).

    EDIT: I'm talking from a personal enjoyment standpoint, when talking about nothing else "measuring up". Which I'll probably not bring much into this thread since this thread is more about optimal play, while I'm only playing what I find fun.
    Last edited by Unkhrahuun the Atoned; 2016-07-27 at 08:06 AM.
    The Dead City... it... calls to me...

  14. #14

  15. #15
    Thanks for the work you put in Van!

    SInce EN and NH won't be part of the same tier like HM and BRF was in WoD, won't we need a bis list for EN alone?

  16. #16
    The Insane Puupi's Avatar
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    Not a pretty guide, but it has all the relevant information, which is the important part. Good job!
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i've said i'd like to have one of those bad dragon dildos shaped like a horse, because the shape is nicer than human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    I prefer "enclosed creationist" but yeah, I'm a flat earther.

  17. #17
    Van, put up the .gif too.

  18. #18
    I think you should write a section with guidelines for deviating from BiS. Legendaries and highly warforged gear create a lot of beyond-basic-bis states, and maybe it'll cut down on the 'should I wear x or y' threads. It would also be cool to have some more information about stat weights in non-patchwork situations -- what stats might I want for bursting down an add in 20 seconds with pooled resources? What stats might I want for frequent, short, important aoe -- ala Operator or Xul?

  19. #19
    Is the DPS difference between momentum and nemesis large? The momentum playstyle seem's intimidating.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnthetic View Post
    Is the DPS difference between momentum and nemesis large? The momentum playstyle seem's intimidating.
    This is a big one for me, I probably won't play if I have to do camera moving momentum stuff, I don't mind momentum if I can vault out and run back in but if I have to do all kinds of camera things constantly that's just not for me.

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