[TV] BoJack Horseman

[Gallahadd]

Mr. Peanutbutter, and PFT, FTW!

Don't forget legendary character actress Margo Martindale!

[Gimlix]

XD XD Yep. I've been pushing this show on everyone ever since.

We've barely even made a page of comments here, this show needs some more attention.

I'm more amazed ur still around. Shows dedication also that your irl probably haven't changed much xD

[Halicia]

First thing that hit me after reading your post was Jesse being Todd. Todd being the “uncorrupted” version. I agree they’re both incredibly well written though. The other huge difference between the two is their motivations for their journeys. Bojack starts by realizing how empty his life is due to self involvement and Walt began out of his desire to provide for others. Bojack reminds me of Larry Sanders to a degree.

Heh, I didn't really look at the Todd/Jesse similarities. I think superficially they can appear similar, but fundamentally they have different motivations and capabilities. Todd's so all over the place at times that its likely easy to find specific moments to compare with another character.

I've always thought Walt's beginning of the end was not for others (which he eventually understood and acknowledged), but for his own desire for power. Fundamentally, I think most people desire power. Why wouldn't you want to cheat death as best you can ? Control and influence others so that their choices more properly align to your own happiness ?

But when you brought up Bojack's beginning, I'd say it was the moment he recognized that he wasn't happy. He always thought if he succeeded at the next thing, got richer, more popular, whatever, he'd be happier... but it didn't work. And while I won't assign a specific moment, I do think he realizes that "Who he was and wanted to be" was never going to make him happy, and that he wanted to be happy. So he broke himself.

Which flipped me back to Walt. Maybe its the same for Walt. He seemed to have a mindset of the man he *should* be, in life, in work, and in his family... and by following that path, he would be happy. And he lived under the lie that he even though he was discontent, if he kept to the path, it would pay change eventually.

When he was given an end point to his life and diagnosed with cancer, he saw that he was never going to be happy... and thats where he chose to start breaking himself. Throwing out everything he thought he should be, and being the person he wanted to be.

While I don't think Walt was happy with (some of) the consequences of his choices, I think its quite possible he's happier with himself.

[Halicia]

Well, I'm halfway through the new season, and I'm mixed about how its "all over the place" so far. On one hand, I'm enjoying the season, but on the other hand, I have my doubts that I'm overlooking faults because I want to like the season.

I really liked the Diane episode, and then the Princess Caroline episode...

The way Todd's been treated so far is interesting too. He's funny, but he can be too distracting too.

And then there's episode 6. !@#$ing amazing. I was picking out one best moment after another in the monologue, until he failed to acknowledge Sarah Lynn's death, and that was just perfect. Like holy !@#$. If that isn't such a human response to guilt I don't know what is.

[minkage]

God this show is amazing... its so depressing, emotional, soul crushing and yet hilarious at the same time.

[Drutt]

Simply put, the best show (not on) TV.

S5 has not disappointed. The monologue episode is nothing short of pure brilliance.

[Sting]

I liked the Henry Fondle arc, easily the best new character this season.

[Rainbow Sun]

Gotta say, just started this series and it is pretty awesome.

[Halicia]

Gotta say, just started this series and it is pretty awesome.

Don't read or google *ANYTHING* about bojack until you've finished watching it from start to finish. I guarantee it won't take you long. =)

Bojack is one of those rare shows where you really enjoy it, and then it just keeps getting better.

- - - Updated - - -

I liked the Henry Fondle arc, easily the best new character this season.

It was funny, but after a point I was like "Get this !#$%ing arc over with, I wanna see more Bojack drama".

[Rainbow Sun]

Don't read or google *ANYTHING* about bojack until you've finished watching it from start to finish. I guarantee it won't take you long. =)

Bojack is one of those rare shows where you really enjoy it, and then it just keeps getting better.

Yeah but now that you've said that I can't not Google it. It's like telling your kids not to do drugs.

[Al Gorefiend]

Easily my favorite show on television ever. Bojack is too real, I've never related to a Tv character as much as I do Bojack.

[Halicia]

Yeah but now that you've said that I can't not Google it. It's like telling your kids not to do drugs.

Nah, its more like telling your kids, "Hey kids, don't do drugs.... until you try *THIS* !@#$ I've got, its even better."

- - - Updated - - -

Bojack is too real, I've never related to a Tv character as much as I do Bojack.

I understand Bojack, but I think on a personal level I probably relate more to the females around him more than Bojack himself. Diane, Princess Caroline, His mother even.

I don't really relate at all to Mr. Peanutbutter or Todd. I understand why Todd is written so absurdly, it helps give the show its spin... but on the realistic level, it makes it hard for me to relate to him as a person. I certainly don't relate to Bojack's father or grandfather.

[Halicia]

Thought of a question and I really wanted to hear what other people thought of this...

Does Bojack love Diane ?

(likely thematic spoilers up til the last episode)


Diane loves Bojack. She comes very close to saying exactly that, but stops just short. Its quite likely it was love at first sight, at the halloween party when Bojack immediately "got her" and knew her costume, even when Mr. Peanutbutter didn't. It's quite possible her love may be just the "very good friends" type, and not the "lusting into marriage" type, but its quite certainly some type of love. Her concern for Bojack is more intimate than anyone else we see in her life, including her family and husband.

Bojack needs Diane. Diane sees him, and Bojack says he (everyone) needs someone to see him for who he is. Call him on his bullshit, and reassure him that even with all the bad he's done, he's not a bad person. But needing someone isn't the same as loving them. Loving is generally more giving and understanding, whereas needing is more selfish in nature.

This is the dynamic I think I've been seeing between them for 5 seasons now, and it may inevitably draw them together. It may even work for a time. It could also be very very bad if Bojack can't return Diane's love.

I'm willing to be convinced that Bojack actually does love Diane, but I'm currently of the belief that love is a very foreign concept to Bojack, seen in every relationship he has. (and I'm not blaming the dysfunctional relationships purely on him, either... but that he just doesn't *KNOW* what a loving relationship looks like up close)

Thoughts ?

[Gallahadd]

Okay, just finished season five, spoilers obviously so don’t read on if you’ve not finished the season.

All told it was a good season, not GREAT, but good. I feel like season 1-4 told a very close, personal story, warts and all, while this season was a little broader, possibly a little TOO broad... it feels a bit like its lost itself. It’s no longer the story of a failed actor, desperately trying to find validation while he wallows in his past triumphs. It’s now the story of an actor in a smash hit show, who is still wallowing, because he’s a fucking asshole. The writing is still excellent and the characters engaging though, so the show is solid. Just not AS solid as it has been until now.

That said... this season gave us possibly the greatest episode of the series so far. Free Churo is an ABSOLUTE triumph, and if everyone involved isn’t given all the possible awards, then I will officially give up hope in everything. I’ve never laughed, cried, or done both at the same time, so much in a single episode of television. Wil Arnet delivers an ABSOLUTLY breathtaking performance and more people need to realise just how fucking good he is in this show.

Thoughts ?

I would say BoJack ABSOLUTELY loves Diane, no question about it.

Here’s the thing: BoJack has two great loves in his life (no, not booze and pills)

Princess Caroline, and Diane.

PC is who he SHOULD be with. She driven, stable, takes NONE of his shit and has dragged him up from a forgotten nobody to his current heights. But he’ll never end up with her, because deep down, under the swirling mass of hatred that makes up 90% of his self image, he KNOWS that he’s not good for her. He KNOWS he’d only drag her down with him... She’d happily take that hit, but he won’t let her. So even though I think she’d really help him... they’ll never end up together.

Diane is who he probably WILL end up with. Because she is JUST like him. She’s a few stops behind on the tracks, but her end of the line is exactly where BoJack is right now. She’s just as fucked up, just as broken, she’s just better at hiding it, mostly because she had Mr Peanutbutter to assist. But now he’s getting remarried... which means one of two things: either she’s going to totally cut him off, lose her anchor and due to BoJack being in rehab, she’s going to go off the deep end, just as she did where she was pretending to be a missionary, OR, her and peanutbutter will continue to hook up behind Pickles’ back, which will drive Diane further down into the pits of self loathing. Basically. With BoJack in rehab, and PB getting married, the future is a lose/lose for her.

Just like BoJack. So, she’ll be desolate, BoJack will get out of rehab, with a tenuous grasp on his sobriety, and he’ll run into a broken Diane, who will drag him down into the pit again.

Sound familiar? Because it should... Diane is the poison to BoJack that BoJack is to the rest of the fucking world.

They WILL end up together, it WILL be a disaster... and I don’t think they’ll survive it.

[Halicia]

All told it was a good season, not GREAT, but good. I feel like season 1-4 told a very close, personal story, warts and all, while this season was a little broader, possibly a little TOO broad... it feels a bit like its lost itself.

That said... this season gave us possibly the greatest episode of the series so far.

Pretty much my sentiments... although I think its probably not the worst season, its not the best either. I don't think the show's really "lost its way", I just think thats the nature of things. When you saw earlier seasons, you saw a washed up actor struggling through life, and this is how life goes... ups and downs... one of the cool things though, is that we see behind the mask, that even when his career is riding high, he's still not good.

The other breakout this season is that PC & Diane get to take front and center, if only for a moment, and it really "enhances the brand". Nothing we see from them is particularly shocking or surprising, and yet... it gives us a better appreciation of who they are and how they got there. !@#$ Todd. I don't need to laugh.

I would say BoJack ABSOLUTELY loves Diane, no question about it.

Here’s the thing: BoJack has two great loves in his life (no, not booze and pills)

Princess Caroline, and Diane.

PC is who he SHOULD be with.

Diane is who he probably WILL end up with.

OK, to start off with, I'm gonna go with my general operating definition of love... "Love is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own. - Heinlein". There's plenty of definitions, and everyone has their own views, but in most situations, I find this razor separates Love from Self-Interest.

I think Bojack, PC, and Diane are all kinda in the same boat. They all want happiness, but they don't necessarily understand what they need to do it.

PC episode spoiler question.

I don't think its explicitly stated, but do you think she got an abortion ? It feels like a foil to Bojack's mother, where PC recognized that the "perfect life" being laid out before her wasn't going to make anyone involved happy.

Bojack's mother is, in many ways, a more tragic and compelling character than even Bojack. Her phonecall to Bojack while filming Secretariat echoes in season five with "I see you."

Its interesting you bring up PC, because I think he loves her more than Diane. Its no small thing that he went along with the show in Season 5 purely for her. Yes, he feels indebted to her... but that's never caused himself to move outside of his comfort zone for anyone in the past. And unlike many (all?) of his good deeds, this was a deliberate choice, and not some accidental fluke.

But I'm not convinced he really loves PC or Diane.

I'm reminded of Deer-girl. (yeah, !#$% my memory). He was willing to "give it all up" and move out to New Mexico to be happy.

His happiness. Like PC and Diane, his concern for her happiness was second to his concern for his own happiness.

And I've completely ignored the possible discussion to be had for longterm vs immediate happiness. I was about to continue to ignore it too, but... I remembered the season 5 episode with his sister, where his immediate happiness outweighed everything... and I nearly derp'd and forgot that just the word "sister" was a fairly big spoiler. That was a scary episode.

[Gallahadd]

Pretty much my sentiments... although I think its probably not the worst season, its not the best either.

indeed. Not the best, but not the worst. I’d say better than 1/2, but not as good as 3/4.


I feel like Todd was really wasted this season... he’s had solid arcs in every other season, but season 5 felt REALLY tacked in and pointless. And the whole robot thing was SO stupid. I mean, yes it was good for a laugh or two, but it felt cheap.

PC episode spoilers No, I don’t think she did. She mentioned to Mr Mouse that she’d had three miscarriages before the Philbert one. I’m guessing this was #1 of them.

And no, I don’t think he REALLY loves either of them.... but as close as he can get to loving someone, is to those two.

Yeah, the Hollyhock episode was great, tbh I wish they’d had more of her this season. It seems like that’s the one really solid relationship BoJack has, I think they need to explore it more.

[rogueMatthias]

All told it was a good season, not GREAT, but good. I feel like season 1-4 told a very close, personal story, warts and all, while this season was a little broader, possibly a little TOO broad... it feels a bit like its lost itself. It’s no longer the story of a failed actor, desperately trying to find validation while he wallows in his past triumphs. It’s now the story of an actor in a smash hit show, who is still wallowing, because he’s a fucking asshole. The writing is still excellent and the characters engaging though, so the show is solid. Just not AS solid as it has been until now..

SPOILERS BELOW - DO NOT READ IF YOU"VE NOT WATCHED

I feel the same. I feel the rock bottom moments flowed a lot more naturally from his story and arc in the other seasons. In this season, sure he popped a lot of pills for his pain, or not for his pain, but when it all hit such a huge climax it just seemed a bit too much and out of nowhere (like trying to cram 8 seasons of House's med pain issues into one season).

I don't know if that's half the point though, he's just an addict that won't get help, and will keep fucking up no matter what substance it is. "You never get a happy ending because there's always more show". But, as an audience, how many times can you watch Bojack just crashing out his life again and again. Even Mr Peanutbutter is just following the exact same pattern of self-destruction again and won't grow up.

Some points -

Todd. I just don't feel he had a point in this season. He had some good laughs, but he felt there to give him something to do. Even all the self-aware jokes about his shennanigans started to get a little tired. He just can't seem to grow as a character (but I guess that's kind of the theme of the season) but the others have moved on with their lives without him. Even him living with PK just seemed forced to get him in the story. Creating his robot was the best thing he did.. and that went off to have a story of its own instead.

Diane I find very frustrating, albeit incredibly believeable. I feel ALL of the characters at this point are pretty aware of their character flaws and all want to change, even if they can't find it in themselves to. Diane though, seems just as aware of hers.. but is the only one that seems to hold her flaws with a certain conceit. Like her exchange with Stilton -
Stilton - You know what your problem is? You hold everyone to an impossible standard, including yourself. It's super helpful for writing hot-take shakedowns, and clickbait take-downs, but totally toxic for your personal life and internalized sense of self-worth, girl.
Diane -But shouldn't we be asking more of ourselves and the people in our lives?
She's proud of it at the same time. This shows with her whole arc this season. YES they're friends, yes friends often share secrets, but why should Bojack have to share EVERY humiliating thing from his life with her? She hounded him continually, rewriting the whole show to shame him and humiliate him because she had to know every dark secret of his, just so she has more to judge him for? She just needs to see the worse in people and it's infuriating.
Gina
I thought she was a good chraacter and good for Bojack. I felt bad for her in the end. Ironically, she'll only ever be known on Bojack now as the girlfriend from S5 that he strangled..

Also, I LOVE Stefani Stilton. Those roaches LOL

[Halicia]

Even Mr Peanutbutter is just following the exact same pattern of self-destruction again and won't grow up.

I think the major difference between Mr Peanutbutter and Bojack is that, Bojack is aware and unhappy, Mr PB is unaware and happy. If you're stumbling through life making the same "mistakes" over and over, but living happily in your blindness, would you want the red pill or the blue pill ?

Todd. I just don't feel he had a point in this season. He had some good laughs, but he felt there to give him something to do. Even all the self-aware jokes about his shennanigans started to get a little tired. He just can't seem to grow as a character (but I guess that's kind of the theme of the season) but the others have moved on with their lives without him. Even him living with PK just seemed forced to get him in the story. Creating his robot was the best thing he did.. and that went off to have a story of its own instead.

I don't think Todd has much purpose in the *series* let alone this season, except maybe to add weight to the fact that, what little good Bojack has done in his life (such as giving Todd a place to crash) has been entirely unintentional... The robot arc was cute, but it only highlighted the fact that the show doesn't *need* Todd, the Robot, or humor to be a compelling show. At times, the show has benefited by having a Todd character in it, to show someone that is "aware and happy", but I don't think this season needed much of a reminder of that.

This shows with her whole arc this season. YES they're friends, yes friends often share secrets, but why should Bojack have to share EVERY humiliating thing from his life with her? She hounded him continually, rewriting the whole show to shame him and humiliate him because she had to know every dark secret of his, just so she has more to judge him for? She just needs to see the worse in people and it's infuriating.

Reminds me of the climax of Chasing Amy. Diane loves Bojack. That's obviously *WHY* she needs to know and understand every last flaw of his... but... I'd love it if someone could explain to me the necessity of knowing everything about someone like this. I can relate and understand Diane in a way I can't understand, which makes me wish someone could explain her better because I think it would give me a little more enlightenment.

Gina
I thought she was a good chraacter and good for Bojack. I felt bad for her in the end. Ironically, she'll only ever be known on Bojack now as the girlfriend from S5 that he strangled..

She's also a good example of how some (most/all?) of Bojack's best actions are entirely unintentional.

Also, I LOVE Stefani Stilton. Those roaches LOL

If there's any character on this show I'd date, or just be !#@$buddies with, it'd be her. While some corporate callousness is used for comedic effect, she largely seems aware of her own actions, in control of her own happiness, and caring for her friends. So I think she'd be able to carry out a healthy relationship that satisfies both her and her partner.

I don't think I could deal with the drama that PC or Diane would bring... both of them have their own issues empathizing with their partners, as well.

[minkage]

Half of the final season of bojack is now available to watch.

I binged it all and the show is as fantastic as ever and how the final episode ended.... boy its gonna be a hard couple of months wait too see how it all plays out.

Kind of shocked at how little Bojack is talked about around these parts.

[Halicia]

Half of the final season of bojack is now available to watch.

I binged it all and the show is as fantastic as ever and how the final episode ended.... boy its gonna be a hard couple of months wait too see how it all plays out.

Kind of shocked at how little Bojack is talked about around these parts.

Bojack is great. The new opening is great. The final season so far has felt "natural", and although they've clearly tried to make sure each character gets a little growth in their arc, it doesn't feel as forced as I've seen some shows end their seasons with.

Two things jump out at me without being all spoilery. The "crossover episode" was great. Its a really minor bit, but it shows major growth for Bojack as a person simply for him giving something for others with nothing for himself involved.

The second is a little more difficult for me to describe, but its the "face of depression", how the public *wants* people to represent their identities and struggles, but they also want to feel good... so they'd rather be lied to than see the dirty realism of a thing. Bojack is the face of depression, especially if he is 100% revealed, but he would be villified, and not celebrated in the way Mr PB is.

But good god, I can't rave enough how awesome the new opening is.

Oh, and that Sara Lynn flashback was brutal. "Why can't you get your hair cut in your dressing room?"