Havoc First Impressions

[Cempa]

Did you try assassin on Beta? That spec is amazing, it has one of the best bursts in game, it can pretty much kill any1 under 20 sec if set up is correct, too bad i don;t play my rogue any more, but Assa looks mad mad fun if you are into quick burst game play

You can macro the setup!

[Snegovik]

You can macro the setup!

Agr...that is one of the sexiest things i heard on these forums lol. If i end up quiting my Ret, i will def give it a shot with an assas rogue

[lexonio]

The only Rogue spec that can "give a shot" is Outlaw! Ba-dumm-tss!

On a more serious note, how is Havoc in solo PvP? I understand they're good when backed up by a friendly healer, but what about more chaotic, less organized setting?

[wholol]

There are no pvp specs, there are:

Arena specs

RBG specs

Duel specs

Other than RBGs the unholy spec is easily one of the weakest specs out there right now, or please explain how an unholy dk will prevent someone to 1 shot it? It can't be healed by coils anymore? Actually uh dks are the only pet class that cannot heal their pets!

And when its done there is no cc to speak of, dmg almost halved and there is no blood presence and selfheals that can save you.

There is nothing in the pvp talents or artefact weapon that can help you survive against a melee cleave at all.

Why do people rate only the dmg and offensive cds of a class? Is this friggin PVE?

What are you comparing DK with exactly ? other DK specs? blood might be better at surviving in duels but for arenas and rbgs unholy is just superior to frost in almost every regard, survivability and sustained damage / pressure and CC, unholy is the only spec that has the 45 secs cd stun and pet stun, it's the only spec with corpse shield , frost is paper right now if you haven't noticed and it's burst is not as strong as it should be for a spec that has almost literally the weakest survivability of all melee specs.

On beta Uh DK is a monster in almost every team based pvp scenario, frost is laughable.

And it is as it should be, uh is marginally more complicated to play and should be rewarded as such.

[Gully Man]

As has been mentioned, i don't like the lack of self healing at the minute but it will be better once you can take Soul Rending and Awaken the Demon Within.

[Lex Icon]

i kinda feel like vengeance got all the cool stuff and havoc got whatever was left. =/

[Demsi]

The only Rogue spec that can "give a shot" is Outlaw! Ba-dumm-tss!

On a more serious note, how is Havoc in solo PvP? I understand they're good when backed up by a friendly healer, but what about more chaotic, less organized setting?

having played some bg's with some Demon hunter buddies, their Aoe stun is amazing in bg's like arathi basin and battle for gilneas, where there are a lot of people clumping up on each other.

[Deleted]

Out of curiosity what are the other two? Arms and Outlaw?

nope they are affliction and affliction

[Cempa]

nope they are affliction and affliction

Nurfs have begun and will continue .. I am sure Affi will get cut down to being useless unless in 3v3 with a pocket healer ..

[Tyrannica]

What are you comparing DK with exactly ? other DK specs? blood might be better at surviving in duels but for arenas and rbgs unholy is just superior to frost in almost every regard, survivability and sustained damage / pressure and CC, unholy is the only spec that has the 45 secs cd stun and pet stun, it's the only spec with corpse shield , frost is paper right now if you haven't noticed and it's burst is not as strong as it should be for a spec that has almost literally the weakest survivability of all melee specs.

On beta Uh DK is a monster in almost every team based pvp scenario, frost is laughable.

And it is as it should be, uh is marginally more complicated to play and should be rewarded as such.

No, i compare it with other classes and their specs. Blood is probbly the most overpowered tank spec next to prot paladin. Blood is also much more powerful than unholy and frost both dd specs are pretty weak in comparission. Just look how much blizz had to nerf blood via templates to allow him in pvp at all. I remember Blood Boil a simply aoe spell to get aggro of thrash was nerfed to only 30% in pvp, because its a burst aoe that kills normal mobs instantly and dmg elite mobs severly. The absorb shield is ridiculous and the heal is like all dd specs of the dk lost theirs just to find it in blood. Even the amount of cc is too high and has low cool downs. If you include blood, the dk is a raid boss.

I just don't include tank specs in pvp, thus we are left with 2 very squishy specs. Whats all that dmg worth if you are squishy like paper as a plate class? You actually lost your heals and death strike got nerfd into oblivion, the heal limit to 10% total health is not so worse as the very high RM cost, 45 runic power is something.....DS should simply cost 2 runes, instead. They lost ghul sacrafice and death syphon as well for a ranged heal, when a dk gets kited, ironically blood dk has something like that in his first tier of talents.(but does not need it at all)

While in arenas, the unholy dk's dmg isn't as easy to peel in comparission to frost's i just explained in the previous post how easy it is, to kill the pet and shut it down permanently - i would like to hear an answer to this comment, not how much dmg an unholy dk can do. No deathcoil heals on the pet means this spec is easily outplayed in arenas and only for some rbgs at most, when people to not bother to target call on pets.

you can also count on dmg nerfs if they are proven too high, too. I only rate the design and how it plays out, very poor defensives that could be easily outplayed are pretty bad for a spec with mobility issues. Many artifacts are just about dmg, but some are about mobility, utility and selfheals, too. You can tell a good design from a bad one just by looking at it. A good example is the shadow priest artefact and pvp talents. You get a completely wrong imperession playin spriest on live, they are far more powerful (in every aspect of the word) once they got their artifact and pvp talents, couldn't say the same about dd deekays. Another heal to death strike, death strike 2 ruens instead of ridiculous amounts of RM and petheal would fix at least the unholy spec. Frost seems completely PvE design anyways now, if permafrost would scale with more than just autoattacks Fdks could be used at least in a RBG, where people do not care much about positioning and mobility. A target caller that dies instantly isn't that useful right now.

- - - Updated - - -

Nurfs have begun and will continue .. I am sure Affi will get cut down to being useless unless in 3v3 with a pocket healer ..

affli got nerfed in their intellegence primary stat(pun intended) from 155 to 120

but sub has only 70% of its prime stat, lower than a tank right now and nerfed some abiliteis and reduced the range of shadowstrike. Why should i bothered to play this? Or this ridiculous exsanguinate nerf? I grand it was overpowered in pve and pvp, but theret was nothing else going for the assassin spec, since poison did not much at all anymore, other than annoying you with the regular application of it. I switched to outlaw and got used to roll the bones, but its unplayable without an addon like weakauras all you need is extra awarness of this spec, much more than subletly ever needed, but its really only about RtB.

I think stat template nerfs are nonsense only abilities that are overtuned or weak should be balanced. Just feels bad to see a huge downgrade of your main stat.

[wholol]

snip~

Well, blood aside ( since it's a tank spec and obviously will be hard to kill ) , i know what u mean by unholy feels squishy compared to WoD but it's not that bad my friend.

First let's just agree that frost is the squishiest spec in the universe, unholy has more tools to survive but yeah if they kill the pet it's an issue but this depends if you are talking duels / arenas/ bgs etc, coz in every situation a different outcome may occur.

If let's you are talking about duels vs some classes that can destroy DK sure I'll agree with you (emphasis on some ) and in bgs everyone dies ( even afflocks after nerfs ), you can still do insane damage if thats what you want in bgs.

But unholy in arenas cannot be dismissed so easily friend , first never forget in 3s you will have a healer , second regarding your pet issue if you know a certain comp will for some reason train your pet hard everytime it's alive you may choose to pick the All will serve talent instead, no cd on pet would solve your issue rather easily I think ?

Overall I don't think Uh is that squishy, there are much squishier specs ( frost for example ), now I don't know about what bracket you belong in but my R1 DK friend is pretty pleased with the changes to UH, and praises some of the changes.

[Tyrannica]

Well, blood aside ( since it's a tank spec and obviously will be hard to kill ) , i know what u mean by unholy feels squishy compared to WoD but it's not that bad my friend.

First let's just agree that frost is the squishiest spec in the universe, unholy has more tools to survive but yeah if they kill the pet it's an issue but this depends if you are talking duels / arenas/ bgs etc, coz in every situation a different outcome may occur.

If let's you are talking about duels vs some classes that can destroy DK sure I'll agree with you (emphasis on some ) and in bgs everyone dies ( even afflocks after nerfs ), you can still do insane damage if thats what you want in bgs.

But unholy in arenas cannot be dismissed so easily friend , first never forget in 3s you will have a healer , second regarding your pet issue if you know a certain comp will for some reason train your pet hard everytime it's alive you may choose to pick the All will serve talent instead, no cd on pet would solve your issue rather easily I think ?

Overall I don't think Uh is that squishy, there are much squishier specs ( frost for example ), now I don't know about what bracket you belong in but my R1 DK friend is pretty pleased with the changes to UH, and praises some of the changes.

Dmg was never an issue of the dk classes, other than frosts bad scaling with ilvls in PvE raids that is not the topic here. Just think about this: no matter in what setup you play in an arena, i am 100% sure you will get trained and tunneled as its so easy to simply kill a dd DK right now.

You might have a point with all will serve though, problem just is i prefere petcoilheals over it and epedmic pushing dot pressure to insane high levels with a lock in shadowcleave comps, but without it the weakness of the uh is obvious, just focus the pet and then dk himself, who would focus an immortal healer who constantly cc peels or lock with his absorbs when dks are just made out of thin paper? To tunnel a dk, worked in the past, it works even more right now in the beta, he's simply too squishy the plate alone means nothing who does only bleeds and physical dmg? right. and warriors and ferals kill them swiftly enough. necrostrike does not hit for that much either and is lackluster in legion, playing unholy since wrath and in cata in rated arenas along with better suited classes and specs for arena(like rdruid and all the rogues specs but thats not the point here), i saw the downfall allready by the end of s11, with nothing innovative coming to the dk in arenas that really give some bang for the buck other than dmg that gots quickly hotnerffixed once ratings are near and half through a arena season.

You just said, frost is more squishier than the uh dk, i agree with this obviously, but for the irony of it, i want to mention artefacts: The frost artifacts has at least 2(rather underwhelming) perks/talents that increase survivability, while i could not find any for the unholy weapon, there are only dmg modifiers. I mean, obviously the arena is not a raid and only about dps, its about def cds, mobility, utility(you see in cervantes posts latter in my little dk essay, how the dk grip bugs a bit in some situations, as well as wraith walk) and of course you positioning and setup.

And while uh/frost dks where duel kings for quite a while now, i am afraid this will totally change in legion - not that this is rated pvp, just a fun pvp skirmish, but i think its sweet irony and the icing on the dk's cake. don't you agree there should be a blood presence and at least 1 tier of selfheals that you could choose from? I mean for such a slow class? why did blood get any heals? Blood does not really need them other than deathstrike heals, it absorbs any damage! Blizz just acknowledged this with further nerfing of blood!

For unholy i am glad if they just bring back deahtcoil heals on pets. For the moment i only see dks really viable in bgs/rbgs and perhaps unholy in a few comps - but it won't be any fun for the player playing the dk, since you know, first seasions of legion will be dominated by melee cleaves tunneling the dk. Heals are cool, but you need a little def, too, like an arms def stance its a whoopoing -20% dmg reduction on all kind of dmg. People tend to complain about arms right now because of poor bg results and lame duels, but he is going to be strong in arenas as he got the toolkit for it.

Now i would love to hear more squishier specs of classes other than frost dks? Considering all the pvp talents and artefact weapons? Because i couldn't find one just those that perhaps do less dmg what is not relevant in this case? I mean other than Havoc DHs who at least got high mobility to compensate?

Cervantes, if you know him isn't that pleased about the fact that death's advance was removed recently and replied directly via tweeter to the developer announcing the nerf. But, he had more to say he just posted his frost and unholy feedback yesterday: http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613181806

So i think the "R1 Friends" discussion just ended right here, doesn't really mean that much, if you can calculate do your math and have a basic pvp expierence even with all the classes and specs in legion and previous installments. The guy is a valid tourney and R1 Streamer maining Dks, he basicly said what i just said here in this very post. Common sense when you played in arenas just long enough and get at least a bit of a competetive rating just slightly above 2k or at it and understanding of the class and how it works. That said you can easily tell a arena player from someone who just got impressed by overall dmg in bgs without seeing the big picture at all. Or an wannabe PvP player who got exceited by that new PvE rotation. Really wouldn't write it here, if it wouldn't happen all the time and all over the place, it sticks like cancer.

[Deleted]

Guys did you see the pvp talent tree of the Havoc demon hunter? Its full of completely insane abilities such as eye of leotheras (burst down a caster whenever he even casts something nasty), some death from above thing and there this bullshit:

Reverse magic: dispell all harmfu magicall effects from you and nearby allies and sends them back to their original caster ...i mean WTF

[GodEmperor]

People still talking about Gnaw like it matters. It's a frigging 1 sec stun(2 sec if Pet is transformed) on a 1 min CD. It's not going to get used much since all it does is be a minor inconvenience and also add to it puts the stun DR which makes your future stuns half duration.