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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Beekeeper View Post
    Haha Blizzard and giving a shit about EU forums, funny.
    If only this was an actual joke. But no, Blizzard don't give a shit.

  2. #22
    complains about 1500s, looks at highest achievement 1750 2s

    k.
    Hi Sephurik

  3. #23
    Bloodsail Admiral Krassz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    everything but resto is overpowered for druids.

    they're almost always this way.
    And I'm still waiting for the reason everyone thinks they're so OP that doesn't include dueling.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Krassz1096 View Post
    And I'm still waiting for the reason everyone thinks they're so OP that doesn't include dueling.
    how about the fact that when they get the flag, they've got a teleport and 3 sprints, and can't be snared?

    the fact that they take damage like a tank, whether they're cat, bird, or bear.

  5. #25
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    how about the fact that when they get the flag, they've got a teleport and 3 sprints, and can't be snared?

    the fact that they take damage like a tank, whether they're cat, bird, or bear.
    I like fearing flag carrying cats when they sprint. And no, they break like a single twig while not in bear form, and while they are in bear form they don't have 3 sprints.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  6. #26
    Bloodsail Admiral Krassz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    how about the fact that when they get the flag, they've got a teleport and 3 sprints, and can't be snared?

    the fact that they take damage like a tank, whether they're cat, bird, or bear.
    Are you playing the same game?

    Ferals are probably the easiest thing in the game to kill inside a swap. I'm speaking from playing beta for 40+ hours mostly doing wargames with various 2400ish/glad level people. I really don't get where you're getting this from.

    3 sprints? Err... 3? First of all, ferals don't play Displacer Beast (the "teleport" you mentioned) and our sprints are Dash and Stampeding Roar, which I don't see either as being OP at all. That's 2, not 3, and I don't see the problem with them considering how squishy ferals are at the moment. We don't have Shirvallah, templates have been introduced so we can't stack vers, passive damage reduction glyph is gone and self healing as a whole is lower and not usable while in form and our only defensive is wall. On the "OP" thing in general we've also lost Cyclone, leaving us with no CC besides a stun unless you take incap maim as a PvP talent. Damage is average, no utility and poor survivability in 3s compared to other specs means it's probably not going to be that good. I'd rather have defensives over mobility any day in arena, which we have the opposite of. If you see ferals playing as flag carriers in RBGs, let me know how it goes. I really don't get that argument. You're talking about random BGs in a thread about how OP a spec is? Even then, they're not even a good option.

    You even said "every druid spec is OP other than resto, and it has always been the case" in the post before, I really think you're playing on a private server or something. RDruids have been the top healing spec constantly. What was the best comp last season? Oh, RMD? What does the D stand for? Druid. What role is it? Healer. On the EU ladders, the top 20 healers are all RDruids, and they have the highest representation on the first page by miles. Plus, the last time Boomkins were "OP" was in S15, when LSD2 was the best comp, and whenever dancing with the stars was a short-lived top-tier comp. Representation at 2200+ currently stands at 7.6% for resto (2nd place just under warrior) 4.8% for feral (9th place) and 3.7% for boomkin (13th place) so yes, clearly resto is the spec that's never good.

    If you want to write me a similar post explaining why it's OP, feel free to do so. Writing "it doesn't die and they've got abilities I don't know the name of or how many of them they have" isn't a very constructive way to go about it, and shows you don't really know anything. Forums really lack constructive posts when it comes to class balance.

    I'd suggest playing the game a bit more before talking about it. You'll realize that anything isn't really outlandishly OP at the minute once you know what you're doing a bit.
    Last edited by Krassz; 2016-08-26 at 11:32 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Krassz1096 View Post
    Are you playing the same game?

    Ferals are probably the easiest thing in the game to kill inside a swap. I'm speaking from playing beta for 40+ hours mostly doing wargames with various 2400ish/glad level people. I really don't get where you're getting this from.

    3 sprints? Err... 3? First of all, ferals don't play Displacer Beast (the "teleport" you mentioned) and our sprints are Dash and Stampeding Roar, which I don't see either as being OP at all. That's 2, not 3, and I don't see the problem with them considering how squishy ferals are at the moment. We don't have Shirvallah, templates have been introduced so we can't stack vers, passive damage reduction glyph is gone and self healing as a whole is lower and not usable while in form and our only defensive is wall. On the "OP" thing in general we've also lost Cyclone, leaving us with no CC besides a stun unless you take incap maim as a PvP talent. Damage is average, no utility and poor survivability in 3s compared to other specs means it's probably not going to be that good. I'd rather have defensives over mobility any day in arena, which we have the opposite of. If you see ferals playing as flag carriers in RBGs, let me know how it goes. I really don't get that argument. You're talking about random BGs in a thread about how OP a spec is? Even then, they're not even a good option.

    You even said "every druid spec is OP other than resto, and it has always been the case" in the post before, I really think you're playing on a private server or something. RDruids have been the top healing spec constantly. What was the best comp last season? Oh, RMD? What does the D stand for? Druid. What role is it? Healer. On the EU ladders, the top 20 healers are all RDruids, and they have the highest representation on the first page by miles. Plus, the last time Boomkins were "OP" was in S15, when LSD2 was the best comp, and whenever dancing with the stars was a short-lived top-tier comp. Representation at 2200+ currently stands at 7.6% for resto (2nd place just under warrior) 4.8% for feral (9th place) and 3.7% for boomkin (13th place) so yes, clearly resto is the spec that's never good.

    If you want to write me a similar post explaining why it's OP, feel free to do so. Writing "it doesn't die and they've got abilities I don't know the name of or how many of them they have" isn't a very constructive way to go about it, and shows you don't really know anything. Forums really lack constructive posts when it comes to class balance.

    I'd suggest playing the game a bit more before talking about it. You'll realize that anything isn't really outlandishly OP at the minute once you know what you're doing a bit.
    i play a feral druid.

    i get the flag, there's almost nothing the enemy can do to stop me.

    i also only do bgs, not rated shit.

  8. #28
    Bloodsail Admiral Krassz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i play a feral druid.

    i get the flag, there's almost nothing the enemy can do to stop me.

    i also only do bgs, not rated shit.
    Just because you can carry a flag in random BGs it doesn't make the spec OP. Any spec can do that. Did you even read through what I wrote? I feel like you're trolling at this point.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Krassz1096 View Post
    Just because you can carry a flag in random BGs it doesn't make the spec OP. Any spec can do that. Did you even read through what I wrote? I feel like you're trolling at this point.
    i've been watching a bear druid solo orgrimmar every day for like a week, balance druids are just ridiculously op in damage output and survivability. they have all the mobility of a feral with better damage reduction. yes, i can take a feral in a fight if they're stupid enough to attempt to stand with my 100% of the time, but if they're smart and know how to get out of range, their ridiculous levels of mobility make it so much stronger.

  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral Krassz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i've been watching a bear druid solo orgrimmar every day for like a week, balance druids are just ridiculously op in damage output and survivability. they have all the mobility of a feral with better damage reduction. yes, i can take a feral in a fight if they're stupid enough to attempt to stand with my 100% of the time, but if they're smart and know how to get out of range, their ridiculous levels of mobility make it so much stronger.
    You're talking about bear druids in a capital city and balance druids doing good damage in random BGs.

    None of this has anything to do with class balance. When people talk about pvp-related class balance, they're talking about 3s. No spec is going to be nerfed just because it can jump into a capital city and kill people or top damage in a random bg

    Once again, about the mobility, read my long post. It's not hard.

  11. #31
    Banned Gandrake's Avatar
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    80% of people who pvp in this game are dick cancer so who really cares

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Krassz1096 View Post
    You're talking about bear druids in a capital city and balance druids doing good damage in random BGs.

    None of this has anything to do with class balance. When people talk about pvp-related class balance, they're talking about 3s. No spec is going to be nerfed just because it can jump into a capital city and kill people or top damage in a random bg

    Once again, about the mobility, read my long post. It's not hard.
    You pretty much just summed up the reason pvp "balance" has always been flawed...because of arena. I enjoy arena but after something like 10 years or whatever it was since they started it, the whole "let's make wow an esport" idea never panned out. You can't make a game like this "balanced" without making it suck.

    The major problem with pvp isn't individual class balance, it's hugely inconsistent class synergy in small groups.

    You can be a 3K rated mage as long as you play RMP or some other generic fotm comp, but if that same mage were to play with an elemental shaman and maybe a warrior as teammates, he'd look like a keyboard-turning noob. The degree to which skill matters in 3s is coordination of synergistic abilities, i.e. chain CC or lining up burst among the team...but because of the gaps in class synergy, people who enjoy playing a certain class/spec often find themselves SOL when it comes to 3s or RBGs if they're deemed to be sub-optimal.

    The solution isn't to keep adding bandaids, it's to stop trying to make a competitive element around an inherently broken system of small-scale skirmishes. The game was designed for groups of 10+ and it used to be that should have been the direction they went. No amount of fixing will ever make arena a level playing field where player skill and teamwork are the only deciding factors (as a sport would be). It's not a sport, so don't try to make it one. The primary focus should be on making the game fun.

  13. #33
    Bloodsail Admiral Krassz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    You pretty much just summed up the reason pvp "balance" has always been flawed...because of arena. I enjoy arena but after something like 10 years or whatever it was since they started it, the whole "let's make wow an esport" idea never panned out. You can't make a game like this "balanced" without making it suck.

    The major problem with pvp isn't individual class balance, it's hugely inconsistent class synergy in small groups.

    You can be a 3K rated mage as long as you play RMP or some other generic fotm comp, but if that same mage were to play with an elemental shaman and maybe a warrior as teammates, he'd look like a keyboard-turning noob. The degree to which skill matters in 3s is coordination of synergistic abilities, i.e. chain CC or lining up burst among the team...but because of the gaps in class synergy, people who enjoy playing a certain class/spec often find themselves SOL when it comes to 3s or RBGs if they're deemed to be sub-optimal.

    The solution isn't to keep adding bandaids, it's to stop trying to make a competitive element around an inherently broken system of small-scale skirmishes. The game was designed for groups of 10+ and it used to be that should have been the direction they went. No amount of fixing will ever make arena a level playing field where player skill and teamwork are the only deciding factors (as a sport would be). It's not a sport, so don't try to make it one. The primary focus should be on making the game fun.
    It's impossible to balance everything in an MMO like WoW where's there's so many things you can do. The fact is though that the competitive scene evolved around 3s. I always said WoW would be in a better state if RBGs were released in TBC and became the "thing" instead of 3s as balance isn't as important there (look at ABN's comps for example) since you can make use of advanced tactics.

    You don't get 3k rating as a "keyboard-turning noob" just because you play a fotm comp. The amount of skill difference between a bad and top-end player is astonishingly high, I don't get why people don't think there isn't any difference. In ANY game there will always be imbalance unless you want every spec to have homogenization, which is the only way to balance it. League is one of the biggest e-sports in the world but half of the 100+ champs aren't viable. Your idea of "fun" isn't the same as everyone else's. For a lot of people, being competitive and trying to "be the best" is where people find their fun.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by xzeve View Post
    Funny.. Yes feral are a bit over powered atm, but really I can play most classes and still beat any class. It is all about knowing how to handle your opponent with the class you are playing. Even as a blood dk I killed a BM hunter + healer at the same time, alone.
    With my holy paladin I went to tanaan, and killed 5 different classes - as a healer!

    No one got all that self healing anymore, and people need to learn how to play without it. Now you actually have to plan your CDs as they matter more than ever before.

    People just need some time to get used to it.
    "I killed someone so there's no problem"
    If you killed a BM hunter and a healer in one sit as a blood death knight, these players were just plain terrible and that is all, if that wasn't the case, then it would be problematic if a god damn tank was allowed to handle two players of the same skill level at once alone. It's not only about knowing how to handle your opponent with the class you are playing, certain classes definitely have it better.
    Last edited by mmocafdd20634a; 2016-08-26 at 05:42 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    I often wondered why they don't employ statisticians to balance the game. All of these attacks etc are based on numbers. Surely there are good statisticians that can run these numbers and find a way to balance them correctly. I wouldn't employ a dev to balance the numbers, just as I wouldn't employ a statistician to work on character animations. It just makes no sense. Hire the right person for the job, they certainly have the money to do so.
    why are you saying that they dont have one? btw, there is not only numbers. if every class hits the same and in the same form, it would be only a class to play.

  16. #36
    @Krassz1096 Rdruids are the worst healers in Legion for pvp. I read through your post and got to the point where you spoke about how good Rdruids have been in the past. The bad thing is, in the past they had ways to actively heal with their hots like with Genesis.

    Now, Rdruids dont have that. They literally just have their hots in pvp, and guess what, Hots are spellstealable and purgeable. Rdruids have way too many counters now in terms of comps to really be viable at a high rating.

    Keep in mind I main hpal but from what Ive seen and played myself along with the feedback thats been provided, Rdruids are in a bad spot in pvp.

  17. #37
    Bloodsail Admiral Krassz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    @Krassz1096 Rdruids are the worst healers in Legion for pvp. I read through your post and got to the point where you spoke about how good Rdruids have been in the past. The bad thing is, in the past they had ways to actively heal with their hots like with Genesis.

    Now, Rdruids dont have that. They literally just have their hots in pvp, and guess what, Hots are spellstealable and purgeable. Rdruids have way too many counters now in terms of comps to really be viable at a high rating.

    Keep in mind I main hpal but from what Ive seen and played myself along with the feedback thats been provided, Rdruids are in a bad spot in pvp.
    I'm not really sure what the best healers are in Legion at the moment, sort of hard to tell without any proper arena - but the point of his post was "Every druid spec is OP apart from rdruid, and that's how it's always been" which is clearly not the case.

  18. #38
    WoW forums in general are pretty sad. Everybody screaming how useless and weak their favorite class is, getting triggered by anyone who would dare provide counterpoints.


    It's like they truly believe Blizzard balances based on forum whine.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Krassz1096 View Post
    It's impossible to balance everything in an MMO like WoW where's there's so many things you can do. The fact is though that the competitive scene evolved around 3s. I always said WoW would be in a better state if RBGs were released in TBC and became the "thing" instead of 3s as balance isn't as important there (look at ABN's comps for example) since you can make use of advanced tactics.
    Yes, it's impossible and it should never have been the objective. That is my point. It is possible, however, to narrow the gaps between "optimal" comps and "random" comps so that the comp itself is not a deciding factor. The idea of ratings was a mistake as well. Rankings for fun based on something simple like how many kills or achievements you get is fine, but when you add "ratings" you get the "i'm better than you because rating" crap going and that quickly devolves faster than a pvetard spamming raid chat with DPS meters to show how "good" they think they are.

    You don't get 3k rating as a "keyboard-turning noob" just because you play a fotm comp. The amount of skill difference between a bad and top-end player is astonishingly high, I don't get why people don't think there isn't any difference. In ANY game there will always be imbalance unless you want every spec to have homogenization, which is the only way to balance it. League is one of the biggest e-sports in the world but half of the 100+ champs aren't viable. Your idea of "fun" isn't the same as everyone else's. For a lot of people, being competitive and trying to "be the best" is where people find their fun.
    Read what I wrote. I said that no matter how good you are individually, even with a 3K rating, playing with a no-go comp like the one I used in my example would render you inept. Hence the myth that rating equals skill. Rating often equals knowing people who play decently on class/specs that pair favorably with yours.

    I never said anything about homogeneity...if anything, I support the opposite. I want unique classes with their own unique abilities and play-styles. Balance is not possible - so stop trying to balance and just make the game fun. Being "competitive" doesn't mean you get to pick out a baseline set of criteria that must be present for you to compete - you work with what you have.

    The difference among players at the upper end of the ladder is minuscule. It's like this for many forms of competition, even something like drag racing...where top fuel races are decided by hundredths of a second. Because arena disproportionately favors a very narrow range of team comps, especially at higher ratings, it is an inherently unfair system that should only exist as something for vanity. Game progression should NOT be linked to something that isn't equally viable for all players of all classes/specs.

  20. #40
    Bloodsail Admiral Krassz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Yes, it's impossible and it should never have been the objective. That is my point. It is possible, however, to narrow the gaps between "optimal" comps and "random" comps so that the comp itself is not a deciding factor. The idea of ratings was a mistake as well. Rankings for fun based on something simple like how many kills or achievements you get is fine, but when you add "ratings" you get the "i'm better than you because rating" crap going and that quickly devolves faster than a pvetard spamming raid chat with DPS meters to show how "good" they think they are.



    Read what I wrote. I said that no matter how good you are individually, even with a 3K rating, playing with a no-go comp like the one I used in my example would render you inept. Hence the myth that rating equals skill. Rating often equals knowing people who play decently on class/specs that pair favorably with yours.

    I never said anything about homogeneity...if anything, I support the opposite. I want unique classes with their own unique abilities and play-styles. Balance is not possible - so stop trying to balance and just make the game fun. Being "competitive" doesn't mean you get to pick out a baseline set of criteria that must be present for you to compete - you work with what you have.

    The difference among players at the upper end of the ladder is minuscule. It's like this for many forms of competition, even something like drag racing...where top fuel races are decided by hundredths of a second. Because arena disproportionately favors a very narrow range of team comps, especially at higher ratings, it is an inherently unfair system that should only exist as something for vanity. Game progression should NOT be linked to something that isn't equally viable for all players of all classes/specs.
    Well without the goal of balance, no one would have fun. Getting it close to balanced is the best thing they can do. I wouldn't be playing if something like pre-nerf prepatch assass rogues existed as a thing because Blizz didn't care about balance.

    Some people play for more than just "fun", that's my point. Some people like the feeling you get once you reach the top-end of the ladder,. get your first glad, or beat the best teams.

    But rating does normally equal skill, I get what you're trying to say, people always try this and say "well if they played a shit comp they wouldn't be at that level!" but it doesn't really make sense in an argument, it's true, but pointless. Even if they play a "fotm"comp, they're still the best at it. The amount of mirrors you have to face as a top tier comp is proof of that. There's still RMDs stuck at 1400 rating despite being the best comp.

    I know you never said anything homogeneity. What I was saying was, the only way you can achieve complete balance is homogeneity.

    And yes, I agree the difference at the top end of the ladder (the first few pages) is minuscule. Other than that though, no.

    Game progress is always going to be linked to viability in MMORPGs. That's how they work. You want this big variety of things to do and loads of unique specs, that's the way it's going to be. You can't balance all of that. It's just the way it is. If you can't deal with that, then MMORPGs aren't really for you, I'm afraid. I've played all the big MMOs out there for a fair bit of time, and they're all the same in that regard.
    Last edited by Krassz; 2016-08-26 at 06:46 PM.

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