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  1. #1
    Deleted

    What exactly is our strength as DPS?

    With the removal of DA and implementation of Wraith walk we are pretty much tied with Ret paladins in worst mobility in a raid fight.

    From an update:

    • The Unholy specialization no longer includes Death’s Advance.
    • Wraith Walk’s cooldown has been reduced from 60 to 45 seconds, which is reduced to 30 seconds by Lingering Apparition.

    But hey, we have ranged damage to make up for this right?

    From august 1 update:

    • Clawing Shadows damage reduced by 25%. PvP damage unchanged.
    • Scourge Strike now deals both physical and shadow damage to multiple targets when the Unholy Death Knight is standing in their own Death and Decay.

    Nope. We are now forced to use the objectively less fun and less mobile Castigator talent. Yes, we got a pet and death coils, but is that really enough to offset our mobility?

    • We no longer have raid utility like some other classes do, aka no AMZ.


    In the end we have only one thing that a tank DK can also perform, and that is gripping, which can only be used on a select few mobs, if any during a raid encounter.


    But wait! There is hope in the end of the tunnel, blizzard have now stated why and our role in the greater scheme!

    From a blue:
    http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...846433#post-12

    Death Knights are meant to have lower mobility than other melee classes, but feel very strong once they’re in range. That said, we agree that they need a little help with their on-demand movement options. In an upcoming hotfix, we’ll be lowering the cooldown of Wraith Walk to 45 seconds, so you can close those gaps more regularly.

    Ohh boy, so we are meant to be hulking slow masses of meat, but when we finally get close we should be rocking everyone's socks off?

    Right, okay, i can get behind that, a slow juggernaut that is immensely powerful if he gets close.

    So why do mages in ranged, rogues and many other dps outperform us in melee with their superior mobility. Especially mages since they can both target swap, be ranged AND deal their loads of damage including their utility. Not to mention warlocks doing the same with bringing portal utility.




    Why should a raid-leader bring me instead of an equally skilled and geared mage? Help me realize what i am not getting, because i am clearly too stupid to see the whole picture apparently.

  2. #2
    Well if it makes you feel any better, "Why should a raid-leader bring me instead of an equally skilled and geared mage?" Is a question relevant to most DPS specs at the moment.

  3. #3
    Deleted
    I dunno, I intend to bring one for two reasons, someone needs to get the spare plate drops I don't need, and UH AoE is still very viable for a lot of situation, and besides if we discount running 14 mages (which I don't have at my disposal anyway) DKs are still towards the upper side of overall DPS. Simply put you outperform rets and DPS warriors on most occasions, so you'd be the plate wearer of choice if it came to it.

  4. #4
    Deleted
    for spread aoe aslong we can out targets as unholy, we cant really be beaten, our aoe for sstacked groups of mobs is aslo strong, dnd/Defile + SS cleave or epidemic. and frost has breah and FC which cleave, remorsless winter for aoe dmg around them which is better or worse then dnd/Defile depending on fight. AND hb with rime procs which still doesnt do alot of dmg. we aslo got quite good ST burst, breath and DA. with DA being stronger but shorter duration and longer cd.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    Yeah epidemic is viable at the moment.

    If it still is at 110 we all know what happens next...dun dun duuh...
    Last edited by mmocf0b29d4c77; 2016-08-22 at 03:40 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Psykee View Post
    Why should a raid-leader bring me instead of an equally skilled and geared mage? Help me realize what i am not getting, because i am clearly too stupid to see the whole picture apparently.

    Well,
    #1 we already have 2-3 mages and really don't feel like bringing another.
    #2 someone has to take the plate drops, and all the rets went emo and rerolled.

    On a more serious note, you shouldn't compare yourself with mages...they are just ridiculous atm.

    You bring (at least as unholy) Solid ST, ST Burst, AoE burst, Solid sustained AoE, up to 2 grips, and up to 2 potential mechanic bypassers with AMS and Corpse shield. Sure, ur slow as all hell, but that can be compensated for in part through better play and fast reaction time (and if ur lucky, you'll have a windwalker for the speed aura)

  7. #7
    The personal loot option pretty much removes the whole "someone has to take the plate drops" from being an issue, no?

  8. #8
    I don't think we have a strength really, but this will be the first expansion since Cataclysm that I will be able to play my DK as a main and I am super excited! In MoP I was forced to play Warlock for dps and utility, in WoD I was forced to play a warlock and a mage until the guild imploded. Since Wrath I have been a DK main that has had to play other stuff because DK was crap. I would essentially play my raid class only during raid times and then play my DK the rest of the time.

    Now I am going to play in a more casual guild and they said I can play DK if I want to and I do! I know that I don't do anything particularly good. I know that there are better options for my spot.

    I like the DK though. It might be nostalgia for Wrath or Cataclysm or even MoP but I identify with this class more than any other. I am looking forward to raiding this time around, although I will admit I am not looking forward to PvP.

    So yeah, the class is not in the best spot. It also is not in the worst spot. I think if you are looking to be the best at everything then you are really not concerned with the class as much as you are with the power and that is a perfectly valid way to get enjoyment out of the game. I also think that we should advocate for the class that you identify with, but I do not think that you are either the best or you are garbage.

  9. #9
    Honestly, to soak up plate gear.

    It's been stated too many times, unstoppable slow moving juggernaut is a myth in Wow.

    Play a Dk because you enjoy it and like the lore because that's all there is too it.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeds Dead View Post
    Honestly, to soak up plate gear.

    It's been stated too many times, unstoppable slow moving juggernaut is a myth in Wow.

    Play a Dk because you enjoy it and like the lore because that's all there is too it.
    Most people playing will be playing with personal loot though. So really you just have to balance the number of tanks, healers, ranged and melee. I would wager that the vast majority of players are going to be playing normal and heroic flex and the players that will be playing mythic only will have a limited number of spots for melee. That is the reason why a DK might or might not be on the roster.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    I don't think we have a strength really, but this will be the first expansion since Cataclysm that I will be able to play my DK as a main and I am super excited! In MoP I was forced to play Warlock for dps and utility, in WoD I was forced to play a warlock and a mage until the guild imploded. Since Wrath I have been a DK main that has had to play other stuff because DK was crap. I would essentially play my raid class only during raid times and then play my DK the rest of the time.

    Now I am going to play in a more casual guild and they said I can play DK if I want to and I do! I know that I don't do anything particularly good. I know that there are better options for my spot.

    I like the DK though. It might be nostalgia for Wrath or Cataclysm or even MoP but I identify with this class more than any other. I am looking forward to raiding this time around, although I will admit I am not looking forward to PvP.

    So yeah, the class is not in the best spot. It also is not in the worst spot. I think if you are looking to be the best at everything then you are really not concerned with the class as much as you are with the power and that is a perfectly valid way to get enjoyment out of the game. I also think that we should advocate for the class that you identify with, but I do not think that you are either the best or you are garbage.
    dks do have a strength, we can cleave/Aoe very good,and have quite decent ST burst, or sustained dmg aswell

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrisela View Post
    dks do have a strength, we can cleave/Aoe very good,and have quite decent ST burst, or sustained dmg aswell
    There are other classes that do all that and don't have drawbacks such as melee, mobility, or survival and also bring raid utility.

    Think of things like iceblock, deter, cloak, etc for raid mechanics and the dps loss that a DK will incur by having to pre-move out of effects, not being able to keep up with a kiting target, etc.

    Overall, there are better choices so right now I would say the only real reason to bring a DK is because you want to. Just own it and don't try to sugar coat the situation.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    Overall, there are better choices so right now I would say the only real reason to bring a DK is because you want to. Just own it and don't try to sugar coat the situation.
    I don't think it's particularly realistic to expect most guilds to fill all of their melee slots with rogues.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2016-08-22 at 05:04 PM.

  14. #14
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    I beat the mages of my team or am on equal footing currently ranking somewhere near the 500 to 1000 Unholy dk's know that i took a long break in between missing most of spring and summer.

    I find that i do great damage single, cleave and AoE (we honestly can't complain in that department looking how well done the talents are in unholy) and have great survivability, while the removal of our speed buff can be felt the more i know a fight the less reliant i have become on it. I also believe regarding Plate damage dealers we rank fairly high if not the highest, also the common consensus appears to be that unholy is the most fun of them all looking how smooth it plays.

    If you play a melee you work around the idea that you can't attack from ranged, you picked that role to not have an easier time but to be rewarded by planning out your fight more, right now i find that i get rewarded for playing better and that's all i want from a damage spec a sense of skill difference and options to constantly grow. If i didn't want that i would recommend while still sticking to a melee role to play something like a demon hunter what appears to be tailored towards that demographic.

    Blizzard also stated that they aren't done and are going back to the idea of people wanting to bring a class, undoing what they actually spend from pre-patch cata till late MoP to do. Stating they even found it was laziness on their part to just give the classes something they lacked. While i don't believe we'll ever go back to bloodlust being shaman only. I do believe this is the first full iteration of it, going to be one bumpy ride before they are done.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    I beat the mages of my team or am on equal footing currently ranking somewhere near the 500 to 1000 Unholy dk's know that i took a long break in between missing most of spring and summer.

    I find that i do great damage single, cleave and AoE (we honestly can't complain in that department looking how well done the talents are in unholy) and have great survivability, while the removal of our speed buff can be felt the more i know a fight the less reliant i have become on it. I also believe regarding Plate damage dealers we rank fairly high if not the highest, also the common consensus appears to be that unholy is the most fun of them all looking how smooth it plays.

    If you play a melee you work around the idea that you can't attack from ranged, you picked that role to not have an easier time but to be rewarded by planning out your fight more, right now i find that i get rewarded for playing better and that's all i want from a damage spec a sense of skill difference and options to constantly grow. If i didn't want that i would recommend while still sticking to a melee role to play something like a demon hunter what appears to be tailored towards that demographic.

    Blizzard also stated that they aren't done and are going back to the idea of people wanting to bring a class, undoing what they actually spend from pre-patch cata till late MoP to do. Stating they even found it was laziness on their part to just give the classes something they lacked. While i don't believe we'll ever go back to bloodlust being shaman only. I do believe this is the first full iteration of it, going to be one bumpy ride before they are done.

    An equally geared and skilled mage will be AT LEAST the same as you, but probably higher. Also they have ranged advantage, BL cds, iceblock and strong mobilty.

  16. #16
    Deleted
    Blizzard seem completely capable and eager to give us low mobility. But following through on the "when you get in range they feel very strong" part seems to be lacking.

    According to blizzards idea of class fantasy Dk's should be at the top on any fight that has little to no movement. yet we aren't. We are at the middle of the pack in terms of DPS. We get even lower with fights with actual movement.

    Death Knights are not the strongest tank right now. That title goes to the Prot warrior and guardian druid, both with really good mobility.

    To me it seems especially weird how they handle Death Knights. I'm sure you all remember back at the very start of HFC. Frost DK's were one of the best classes for DPS. The best guilds funnelled tier into their frost DK's only for them to be nerfed 2-3 days after 6.2 released. They were nerfed to the middle of the pack in terms of DPS and ended the tier bottom, because Frost DK's scale poorly with gear. My question is why? Why were they nerfed? Are Dk's not allowed to be the best DPS? I guess that title is only allowed to be held by a mage/warlock.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoeth View Post
    The personal loot option pretty much removes the whole "someone has to take the plate drops" from being an issue, no?
    If your raid runs personal loot - many will still run master loot (particularly if they loot council and/or intend to funnel tier)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunchh View Post
    Blizzard seem completely capable and eager to give us low mobility. But following through on the "when you get in range they feel very strong" part seems to be lacking.
    Agreed - where's the payoff of "feeling very strong" when they do stay on target. Not saying they are weak, but certainly no stronger than any classes with greater mobility.

  18. #18
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psykee View Post
    An equally geared and skilled mage will be AT LEAST the same as you, but probably higher. Also they have ranged advantage, BL cds, iceblock and strong mobilty.
    We have AMS, IBF and Corpse shield that is nothing to simply dismiss. We can also act during our defense they cannot. So sure the mage will survive where others die but when the last one standing you aren't going to do much in the end. Shamans still have BL, chances are if you are raiding mythic you have at least one shaman in there.

    I find people are being overly pessimistic about dk's and too positive about mages.

  19. #19
    DK's still have combat rezz, right? 1 more reason to bring you over another mage.

  20. #20
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alastian View Post
    DK's still have combat rezz, right? 1 more reason to bring you over another mage.
    Yup, us warlocks and druids have that. Us being in melee makes it so it's easy to generally quickly rez a tank.

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