Gamescom Developer Interview, Legion World Quests Preview, Blue Posts, DLC #548

[nekobaka]

I agree it's disgusting. At 707 I could fill a mythic dungeon group with the group finder faster than it would be to sit in the que. Players are lazy now and think you shouldn't have to "socialize" to play this game. Its pathetic. I'm glad Blizzard is sticking to their guns on this one. 3 dungeons being mythic only is a step in the right direction (including Karazhan).

One does not even need to socialize. Just do not be a dbag and be a team player. Now days being nice is not their responsibility and team work equals a job. Never ending the complaints about group based content from people who have no interest in group based content that refuse to take their own advice "dont like it, dont do it."

[DDM]

Haha, those questions !!!! As already mentioned, these players are the problems. Whining about the "hard" content and only going into dumbass lottery and even failing in there or being just afk.
Blizz, please stop designing/make the game easy as hell just because of such stupid statements. Stop giving everybody free loot. Stop adding valor points for upgrading the gear (which makes decisions about ilvl defective)
It's an MMO. Get in a guild, learn your class, at least to a decent point and do the content and get suitable rewarded for that. (Heroic raids are not hard at all.)

And the changes to the addons -> i like it. Paragon "Wrought Chaos" tactics >>>>> Method radar. The Paragon one was the real first kill in my opinion.

[Aggrax]

As someone that has an issue with forming my own groups, let me try to shed some light on why exactly this is an issue for some people. Obviously there is going to be some generalization going on here and I can't speak for anyone other than myself, so please keep that in mind.

Part of the problem is players that don't have the patience to slow down and deal with others who are less skilled or are learning things. Everywhere in group finder are people saying things like "speed run, don't suck want gear fast" and requiring an ilvl on par with the gear from that raid so the person making the group can gear themselves up faster. Now, I don't have a problem with there being some groups like this. It does fill a niche and sometimes it's what people want. My issue is that this type of group is the only type you see. Groups that offer to slow down, learn the fights and accept people who are more mid-tier players just trying to improve themselves.

Now please, don't mistake this for a happy-feel-good "you should take everyone" attitude. Obviously, if a player is an active detriment to a group and makes the same mistake consistently or has no idea what to do, you are free not to take them. But this attitude is taken to the furthest extreme, where players that are trying, are learning, get completely excluded. It leads to a negative cycle of not wanting to join groups because you get completely stressed out over negativity and outright hate that is heaped on people. Again, don't take this to mean that we will throw up our hands at any criticism and claim that people are harassing us. There is a large difference between "Hey, you're doing X, Y and Z wrong and you should change that so the group can get through this." and "OMG YOU SUX UNINSTALL THE GAME AND KILL YOURSELF" (which, yes, I have been told).

Now, I know a lot of you are wondering what the composition of other groups has to do with forming your own. After all, if I form the group, shouldn't I be able to weed those people out? To an extent, yes that is true. However, when you form a group you take upon yourself the position of leader. Generally, you decide what the group is doing, who is coming and what is happening. Which, realistically, requires some knowledge of your objective, in this case the dungeon. And since I never got into a group to do it, I've never been able to see what is happening. Yes, I know boss guides exist, I watch them regularly. But that doesn't always prepare you for what happens in those dungeons. Especially the first time, you can often make mistakes. I play this game for fun, to relax and avoid stresses in my life. If forming a group is going to become this stressful experience, I'm likely to avoid it under most circumstances.

One more thing that I want people to think about. Why do you assume there is such a stark difference between a group assembled in the dungeon finder and one assembled through the group finder? They are both just a random pool of players, the only real difference is you have to assemble the group yourself. Why is it so different if the game does it for you?

[Deleted]

As someone that has an issue with forming my own groups, let me try to shed some light on why exactly this is an issue for some people. Obviously there is going to be some generalization going on here and I can't speak for anyone other than myself, so please keep that in mind.

Part of the problem is players that don't have the patience to slow down and deal with others who are less skilled or are learning things. Everywhere in group finder are people saying things like "speed run, don't suck want gear fast" and requiring an ilvl on par with the gear from that raid so the person making the group can gear themselves up faster. Now, I don't have a problem with there being some groups like this. It does fill a niche and sometimes it's what people want. My issue is that this type of group is the only type you see. Groups that offer to slow down, learn the fights and accept people who are more mid-tier players just trying to improve themselves.

Now please, don't mistake this for a happy-feel-good "you should take everyone" attitude. Obviously, if a player is an active detriment to a group and makes the same mistake consistently or has no idea what to do, you are free not to take them. But this attitude is taken to the furthest extreme, where players that are trying, are learning, get completely excluded. It leads to a negative cycle of not wanting to join groups because you get completely stressed out over negativity and outright hate that is heaped on people. Again, don't take this to mean that we will throw up our hands at any criticism and claim that people are harassing us. There is a large difference between "Hey, you're doing X, Y and Z wrong and you should change that so the group can get through this." and "OMG YOU SUX UNINSTALL THE GAME AND KILL YOURSELF" (which, yes, I have been told).

Now, I know a lot of you are wondering what the composition of other groups has to do with forming your own. After all, if I form the group, shouldn't I be able to weed those people out? To an extent, yes that is true. However, when you form a group you take upon yourself the position of leader. Generally, you decide what the group is doing, who is coming and what is happening. Which, realistically, requires some knowledge of your objective, in this case the dungeon. And since I never got into a group to do it, I've never been able to see what is happening. Yes, I know boss guides exist, I watch them regularly. But that doesn't always prepare you for what happens in those dungeons. Especially the first time, you can often make mistakes. I play this game for fun, to relax and avoid stresses in my life. If forming a group is going to become this stressful experience, I'm likely to avoid it under most circumstances.

One more thing that I want people to think about. Why do you assume there is such a stark difference between a group assembled in the dungeon finder and one assembled through the group finder? They are both just a random pool of players, the only real difference is you have to assemble the group yourself. Why is it so different if the game does it for you?

I also play this game for fun, to relax and to avoid stress in my life. Teaching random people in the group finder how to play doesn't do any of those things for me. I'm a helpful and patient person but I'm not a charity. I help guildies and friends of course but when I fill up that group through finder I want the rest of the group to know what they're doing already, it's less stressful for me and also creates a better environment for my inexperienced friend to learn in.

If we are 4 competent people in a group it's alright if one player makes mistakes. If there are 4 newbies in the group it's going to be a painful trial and error thing. That's fine if you're a group of friends but it's not what I'm looking for in a random group.

If you need help join a guild, or get a friend. I don't mind helping people but I want to know who it is, if I just bring in low geared people from the finder to be nice, odds are they are just looking for a quick and easy way to get gear, not really interested in learning at all.

If you want to be in a group where everyone is welcome to learn, make that kind of group. I'm warning you tho it's probably going to suck, and that's exactly why you don't see those groups around that often.

[Ottius]

Anyone knows if those awesome metal covers of WoW music which were playing during this Gamescom available anywhere?

[Deleted]

I also play this game for fun, to relax and to avoid stress in my life. Teaching random people in the group finder how to play doesn't do any of those things for me. I'm a helpful and patient person but I'm not a charity. I help guildies and friends of course but when I fill up that group through finder I want the rest of the group to know what they're doing already, it's less stressful for me and also creates a better environment for my inexperienced friend to learn in.

If we are 4 competent people in a group it's alright if one player makes mistakes. If there are 4 newbies in the group it's going to be a painful trial and error thing. That's fine if you're a group of friends but it's not what I'm looking for in a random group.

If you need help join a guild, or get a friend. I don't mind helping people but I want to know who it is, if I just bring in low geared people from the finder to be nice, odds are they are just looking for a quick and easy way to get gear, not really interested in learning at all.

If you want to be in a group where everyone is welcome to learn, make that kind of group. I'm warning you tho it's probably going to suck, and that's exactly why you don't see those groups around that often.

The issue is not with wanting to play with experienced players, the issue is when so many of these groups require players that already have basically the full gear from that raid tier which is completely retarded and obnoxious. That is just a pure form of PL just like people get PL in arenas.
The problem IS these players who just want to faceroll every form of content with no form of socialization and respect. They just use others as tools


Not to mention that they are often the same type of min-maxer garbage players who just play according to what they read on the internet and completely shut down several specs in the game just because "duh 5% dps loss duh duh"

[Fynzie]

"Internal testing for raids is done without custom boss mods for each boss and the mechanics. The bosses can be beat with the stock UI."

Haha, what a fucking lie they didn't even spend a single pull on Mythic Archimonde

[JaceDraccus]

I also play this game for fun, to relax and to avoid stress in my life. Teaching random people in the group finder how to play doesn't do any of those things for me. I'm a helpful and patient person but I'm not a charity. I help guildies and friends of course but when I fill up that group through finder I want the rest of the group to know what they're doing already, it's less stressful for me and also creates a better environment for my inexperienced friend to learn in.

So you don't want to teach strangers how to play, but you want strangers to teach your friend?

[TristanTaylor]

I also play this game for fun, to relax and to avoid stress in my life. Teaching random people in the group finder how to play doesn't do any of those things for me. I'm a helpful and patient person but I'm not a charity. I help guildies and friends of course but when I fill up that group through finder I want the rest of the group to know what they're doing already, it's less stressful for me and also creates a better environment for my inexperienced friend to learn in.

If we are 4 competent people in a group it's alright if one player makes mistakes. If there are 4 newbies in the group it's going to be a painful trial and error thing. That's fine if you're a group of friends but it's not what I'm looking for in a random group.

If you need help join a guild, or get a friend. I don't mind helping people but I want to know who it is, if I just bring in low geared people from the finder to be nice, odds are they are just looking for a quick and easy way to get gear, not really interested in learning at all.

If you want to be in a group where everyone is welcome to learn, make that kind of group. I'm warning you tho it's probably going to suck, and that's exactly why you don't see those groups around that often.

And that's all your choice, but some of us want the choice of simply queueing and getting into the dungeon, having a way to do that doesn't make it so you can't use the other option, however the reverse is not true, as we aren't given a version to simply queue for and just go. I think that's what most of this upset is about.

[Saiona]

And that's all your choice, but some of us want the choice of simply queueing and getting into the dungeon, having a way to do that doesn't make it so you can't use the other option, however the reverse is not true, as we aren't given a version to simply queue for and just go. I think that's what most of this upset is about.

Then you don't get to do the dungeons. Not everything needs to be accessible at a mind numbing difficulty level

[Deleted]

The issue is not with wanting to play with experienced players, the issue is when so many of these groups require players that already have basically the full gear from that raid tier which is completely retarded and obnoxious. That is just a pure form of PL just like people get PL in arenas.
The problem IS these players who just want to faceroll every form of content with no form of socialization and respect. They just use others as tools


Not to mention that they are often the same type of min-maxer garbage players who just play according to what they read on the internet and completely shut down several specs in the game just because "duh 5% dps loss duh duh"

Yeah of course that exists. A good example are groups for garrison invasions for example, that content hasn't increased in difficulty since it was introduced and you used to get into a group fine with something like 680 ilvl, now alot of groups aren't taking you if you're below 710.

All groups aren't like that though and generally I've found mythic dungeon groups to be pretty lenient with this stuff. Even the removal of ML from pugs has increased the availablity of pug raids. Sometimes you might have to try for a little bit to find a group and I think for some people if it takes more than 30 seconds they just won't bother and decide to type on the forums that there are no groups.

So you don't want to teach strangers how to play, but you want strangers to teach your friend?

I'm not sure how you got that idea, why do you think I'm playing with my friend? To teach him or her obviously. New players make mistakes though and in a decent group that is fine. I know there are people who make groups to carry really undergeared people but that's not what I'm talking about here, I personally wouldn't bring someone who is a detriment to a group as a whole. And by that I mean more than one wipe or a significantly slower clear time. I'm not saying you are one of them but some people seem to think that if everyone isn't in full mythic gear and the dungeon is done in sub 10 minutes someone was carried, that's not true.

And that's all your choice, but some of us want the choice of simply queueing and getting into the dungeon, having a way to do that doesn't make it so you can't use the other option, however the reverse is not true, as we aren't given a version to simply queue for and just go. I think that's what most of this upset is about.

Random heroics still exist, LFR is being brought back to its MoP-state when it comes to gear so endgaming by the dungeon tool will be a thing again for those people who prefer it. The reason for mthic dungeons not being in the queue-system is they're harder. It just wouldn't be an enjoyable experience concidering a lot of people with that mindset (I don't want to join a group manually) don't really care about learning either.

If you played back when Cata heroics were "hard", you would know that it wasn't really a good experience. Even if you found the difficulty absolutely fine you'd get lots of people joining not really caring, not wanting to learn or listening, they leave, new people join and behave the same and so on. If you got a really bad group you could easily sit in a dungeon for over an hour if you were persistent in staying, and most of that time would be spent wiping and then waiting for a new player to join since one or more left, it really wasn't fun. If we would have had the group finder tool back then I'm sure it would have been a blast.

[Deleted]

It isn't though, you and the playerbase at large have just been conditioned to think so because addons have been holding your hand for so long. People coordinate far more complicated mechanics manually in FFXIV without addons.

I agree on the point of the radar being removed but have you played FFXIV? The only mechanic close to as complex as Wrought Chaos is Nisi/Royal Pentacle and what happened to that? Everyone used a bug/expolit to deal with it. Also top guilds do use addons ACT can be set up to give callouts similar to the timers on DBM defference is top guild have to workout timings themself in live due to no PTR.

FF14 mechanics arent complex they are instead punishing, messing up almost any mechanic is insta death or insta wipe.

[Deleted]

Good god those people complaining about having to actually get groups for Mythic+ were so fucking cringy.

Don't worry, those people will never see mythic anyway.

[Rhoe]

One more thing that I want people to think about. Why do you assume there is such a stark difference between a group assembled in the dungeon finder and one assembled through the group finder? They are both just a random pool of players, the only real difference is you have to assemble the group yourself. Why is it so different if the game does it for you?

Dungeon Finder has kick protection, meaning if someone is 8 years old and just clicking shiny buttons while targeting random mobs, or thinks it's funny to wipe the group repeatedly or just wants to afk and leech on the group or is a bot, they will get kicked a few times and then the game will start giving them a hidden protection cd so you can't kick them with vote kick for a long time. Maybe not such a big problem if they're dps and you can just ignore their utter uselessness, but when you get that "funny" tank who just wants to stand there and sling insults instead of pulling, you're kinda stuck.

Also, vote kick abuse. I've only had it happen to me once, but I often see people trying to kick others for silly or irrelevant reasons, and most people just click yes without bothering to think. Examples being kicking the healer before last boss because the tank doesn't need healing, the blue geared 20k dps guy who was AFK for a single trash pack, the healer who couldn't keep the tank up when he decided to pull two spellslinger packs in Old Kingdom TW and not interrupt anything, the dps doing "too much damage" (wat), hunters with pet taunt on (yes, it's annoying, but it usually helps if you ask them to stop it instead of just instakick) etc, etc.

If you go with the group finder instead, the leader can always kick people, and only the leader has that power. He or she also had to set the group up, which might have taken minimal effort, but still effort, meaning it's less likely that they will just decide to kick someone before the last boss for the lulz. Assuming it's a mythic dungeon, you also have to manually summon people, meaning it's more annoying to replace people, and people thus tend to be a bit more tolerent of the guy who had to go check who rang the door bell etc. In all the mythic dungeon groups I've led, I've only ever kicked a boomy who when repeatedly asked to try a bit harder with his dps (he was consistently doing 10k dps) decided to start cycloning random trash mobs instead.

Another minor difference is that if someone leaves after a dungeon, but the rest of the group want to stay together for another one, you can invite a friend/guildie etc, while the dungeon finder only supports finding someone random, which I think is rather anti-social.

TL;DR: Group finder is less likely to waste your time with leechers/trolls/votekick before last boss because more effort is put into creating the group and getting to the dungeon.

[Noix]

What i hear is "Please hold my hand and let me leech gear off of you cuz i cant do anything on my own" about this mythic +

Sounds rude yes.. cuz it is.
ilvl isnt an issue. even before wod, mop, cata (think thats where major change was) you can and have the ability to get gear and ilvl needed to do content, specially in wod, you can hit ilvl of 715+ easy if your willing to do it, but "YOU" are not willing to do it, "you would rather people do it for you" (Quote this cuz not everyone is like that).

The ones who set group up asking for this ilvl.
ilvl are 2 types of people mostly
A: They have skills and the ilvl and want to complete the "said" content as easy without carrying that 1 person who just stand there and afk pushing 1 on the keyboard.
B: Person who wants to get carried or Wants to do "said" content.

Between those 2 people, are people who
A: to scared to join a group cuz the group ask for ilvl or has rude comments (this is internet who isnt going to put "Big dicks hates you walmat blockbuster") as a comment
B: are to new to know what to do

So instead of seeking out info that clearly trolls kinda point out "GOOGLE KNOWS" or "YOUTUBE KNOWS" (Sometimes trolls give out useful info if you read between the lines) they rather complain about not able to do content cuz of ilvl and being new...

Only real excuse a person can have that is remotely valid is being NEW.. ilvl is a issue in the pass if you are willing to work at it (LFR farming, Dungeon farming, crafted gear FARMING, FARMING! if you see where i am getting at) if you try to skip this part of course YOU WILL HAVE AN ILVL ISSUE nobody wants to carry you to get your ilvl up when you can do it on your own, you just need stop being lazy and go and do it (YES THIS IS POST LEGION)

Now in legion getting your ilvl higher is even THAT MUCH EASIER then it was in wod.. and again we will be face with the same issue "People ask for higher ilvl then me" or "Nobody wants to take me" cuz again YOU rather not make your own group OR you dont want to put the work in to get the ilvl that is need from people who have worked hard.

Farming for gear is easy to do if your willing to work at it, its just long and boring process and yes it sucks.. but guess what, everyone who plays wow works at getting gear even top raiders (wait i think blizzard hands them gear >.>) those of us who work for gear are the ones who will leap ahead of "YOU" why cuz you dont want to do the work (Farming) at getting ilvl needed to go do things.

I support mythic+ and i support those who work hard at getting themselves higher ilvl then most people, and for rest of the people who complain about ilvl and not getting into mythic+ well guess what you have 3 options
A: Start farming for bettter ilvl and stop being lazy
B: Make your own group and see what happens
C: You wont be doing mythic+

Till you can learn to work for your gear like rest of the Wow community you will never pass that breaking point.

- - - Updated - - -

Dungeon Finder has kick protection, meaning if someone is 8 years old and just clicking shiny buttons while targeting random mobs, or thinks it's funny to wipe the group repeatedly or just wants to afk and leech on the group or is a bot, they will get kicked a few times and then the game will start giving them a hidden protection cd so you can't kick them with vote kick for a long time. Maybe not such a big problem if they're dps and you can just ignore their utter uselessness, but when you get that "funny" tank who just wants to stand there and sling insults instead of pulling, you're kinda stuck.

Also, vote kick abuse. I've only had it happen to me once, but I often see people trying to kick others for silly or irrelevant reasons, and most people just click yes without bothering to think. Examples being kicking the healer before last boss because the tank doesn't need healing, the blue geared 20k dps guy who was AFK for a single trash pack, the healer who couldn't keep the tank up when he decided to pull two spellslinger packs in Old Kingdom TW and not interrupt anything, the dps doing "too much damage" (wat), hunters with pet taunt on (yes, it's annoying, but it usually helps if you ask them to stop it instead of just instakick) etc, etc.

If you go with the group finder instead, the leader can always kick people, and only the leader has that power. He or she also had to set the group up, which might have taken minimal effort, but still effort, meaning it's less likely that they will just decide to kick someone before the last boss for the lulz. Assuming it's a mythic dungeon, you also have to manually summon people, meaning it's more annoying to replace people, and people thus tend to be a bit more tolerent of the guy who had to go check who rang the door bell etc. In all the mythic dungeon groups I've led, I've only ever kicked a boomy who when repeatedly asked to try a bit harder with his dps (he was consistently doing 10k dps) decided to start cycloning random trash mobs instead.

Another minor difference is that if someone leaves after a dungeon, but the rest of the group want to stay together for another one, you can invite a friend/guildie etc, while the dungeon finder only supports finding someone random, which I think is rather anti-social.

TL;DR: Group finder is less likely to waste your time with leechers/trolls/votekick before last boss because more effort is put into creating the group and getting to the dungeon.

I shouldnt have to tell you to turn off your pet taunt lol, you should know this by now.. you did lvl your hunter right? you do know how to control your pet right? LOL

[Deleted]

So I understood correctly, in Legion, mythic dungeons will be part of the LFG tool? And why do I have the feeling, that mythic will be the sme difficulty as timewalking dungeons?

[Shakou]

And that's all your choice, but some of us want the choice of simply queueing and getting into the dungeon, having a way to do that doesn't make it so you can't use the other option, however the reverse is not true, as we aren't given a version to simply queue for and just go. I think that's what most of this upset is about.

Well that's just too bad. Now you'll just have to put in as much effort as anyone else does to mix/max and play your characters to their best potential and socialize with other people. In no way is that a bad thing all it means is players won't get that loot for doing next to nothing, including the things every other player that's serious about progression just does naturally at this point.

- - - Updated - - -

So I understood correctly, in Legion, mythic dungeons will be part of the LFG tool? And why do I have the feeling, that mythic will be the sme difficulty as timewalking dungeons?

No you did not understand it correctly, you will not be able to queue for mythic dungeons, you will only be able to use the MANUAL LFG tool. I don't know if you were aware of this but LFG is not LFD.

[Deleted]

So I understood correctly, in Legion, mythic dungeons will be part of the LFG tool? And why do I have the feeling, that mythic will be the sme difficulty as timewalking dungeons?

??? Mythic dungeons remain in the premade group finder section where you have to manually invite each person or just go with your friends/guildies.

[Shudder]

Every time you tell a whiner "just make your own group, invite your guildies or friends or whoever you want" they NEVER respond to you. They can't because they literally have no retort for that. It shuts them the fuck up instantly.

[Shakou]

"Internal testing for raids is done without custom boss mods for each boss and the mechanics. The bosses can be beat with the stock UI."

Haha, what a fucking lie they didn't even spend a single pull on Mythic Archimonde

That's not remotely accurate. They have been internal testing every raid boss at least since WOTLK. The fact that at least one guild (Paragon) managed to down Mythic Archi without the use of the boss mods that are going to be disabled in the patch is testament to this.