Legion PvP Guide

[Deleted]

in Legion there are 3 systems that make your character stronger in PvP:

1. PvP Talents

- PvP talents (also called Honor Talents) are an addition to your normal talents
- PvP talents are only active in PvP combat
- engaging in any kind of PvP activity (Skirmish, Battleground, Arena, Rated Battleground) will award you honor
- in Legion honor is no longer a currency but works just like XP
- the more honor you earn the more PvP talents you will unlock
- honor gain is not gated => you can farm all of your PvP talents within a few days if you play and win a lot

2. Artifact Weapon

- in Legion you will always be wearing the same exact weapon: your Artifact Weapon
- shift + right-clicking on your Artifact Weapon will open a new "talent tree" (in Legion you have normal talents, PvP talents and Artifact talents/traits)
- your Artifact talents/traits are passive talents (+ one new active ability) that make your character considerably stronger
- Artifact Power unlocks 34 points that you can spend on your Artifact talents/traits (just like honor unlocks your PvP talents)
- at the beginning you have 1 point to spend on your Artifact talents/traits (the more Artifact Power you farm, the more points you will unlock to spend on your Artifact talents/traits)
- Artifact Power is earned through every single activity in Legion (Quests, Dungeons, Rares, Skirmishes, Arenas, Battlegrounds etc.)
- in Legion you have a new garrison called Order Hall (or Class Hall)
- completing Work Orders in your Order Hall will award you with Artifact Research Notes (to unlock these specific Work Orders you need to hit level 110 and do some quests in your Order Hall)
- using Artifact Research Notes will grant you Artifact Knowledge, increasing the rate at which you earn Artifact Power (Artifact Knowledge is a multiplier on the Artifact Power you earn)
- this means that the more Work Orders you complete in your Order Hall, the more Artifact Power you get from winning a Battleground (as an example)
- and here is how the soft-gating works for Artifact Power (this is important):

• you start with 1 point to spend on your Artifact talents/traits and an Artifact Knowledge of 1.0

• to get the 2nd point you need to earn 300 Artifact Power

• let's say that winning one Battleground awards 100 Artifact Power

• at this point your Artifact Knowledge is 1.0, hence the 100 Artifact Power you earn through winning a Battleground are multiplied by 1.0 => 100*1.0 = 100 (nothing changes)

• you keep winning Battlegrounds and you earn more and more Artifact Power until you have unlocked 13 points

• now you realize that to unlock the 14th point you need a total of 6840 Artifact Power (which is like 7 times more than what you needed for the 13th point)

• you would have to win 69 battlegrounds with your current Artifact Knowledge of 1.0 to unlock the 14th point

• that's why you go to your Order Hall and start a Work Order that will reward you with Artifact Knowledge

• this Work Order takes up to a week to complete so you should start this Work Order asap (before you start farming Artifact Power)

• once the Work Order is completed your Artifact Knowledge increases to let's say 1.5

• so now winning a Battleground awards you 150 Artifact Power because the base 100 Artifact Power are multiplied by 1.5 => 100*1.5 = 150

• as a result we learn that the duration of the Work Order is the soft-gating mechanism

• you won’t be able to complete your Artifact Weapon as fast as you’d like because at a certain point your Artifact Knowledge will simply not allow for farming Artifact Power effectively

• only farm Artifact Power (AP) if your Artifact Knowledge is 'in balance' with the AP cost of the next point you want to unlock

• catch-up mechanic for your Artifact Weapon: to help alts earn Artifact Power faster later in Legion, the Work Order duration is reduced over the course of the expansion

• six months from now your fresh level 110 character will be able to complete A LOT of Work Orders within a few minutes so that he/she can start farming Artifact Power effectively immediately, because of a significant amount of Artifact Knowledge. (winning a Battleground six months from now will award you with let's say 3500 Artifact Power (instead of the current 100) so that you will unlock your first 9 points instantly)

- on top of the 34 points (the passive dmg/heal bonus u get from spending >34 points is inactive in instanced PvP) to spend on your Artifact talents/traits, you can enhance your Artifact Weapon with 3 Artifact Relics
- these Artifact Relics work like gems that can be socketed into your Artifact Weapon
- each Artifact Relic increases the ilvl of your Artifact Weapon (hence increasing your overall ilvl) and adds another rank to one of your Artifact talents/traits (the added rank is not active in instanced PvP)
- any kind of instanced PvP has a chance to award you with an Artifact Relic (ilvl 805-880) (you also get them from PvE activities)

3. Gear

- in Legion PvP gear can no longer be purchased
- winning a Skirmish or a Battleground has a chance to award you with a blue 805-825 ilvl piece of PvP gear
- winning a rated Arena match or rated Battleground has a chance to award you with an epic 840-880 ilvl piece of PvP gear
- PvP World Quests reward you with 805-840 ilvl PvP gear. the chance of getting an 840 ilvl piece of PvP gear from World Quests increases with your honor level!
- PvE World Quests that reward you with gear are technically the same as PvP World Quests! so do all World Quests that award you with an upgrade.
- in addition, your first victory in all rated brackets each week awards you with a guaranteed epic 840-880 ilvl piece of PvP gear
- each bracket rewards gear (840-880 ilvl) based on the highest rating you earned in the previous week.

• you get 1 piece of PvP gear (840-880 ilvl) from 2v2 each week
• you get 1 piece of PvP gear (840-880 ilvl) from 3v3 each week
• you get 1 piece of PvP gear (840-880 ilvl) from RBG each week

- so be sure to push your rating in all 3 brackets
- on top of the guaranteed 3 pieces of PvP gear (840-880 ilvl) you can keep playing Arenas/RBGs with a chance to get more gear (840-880 ilvl) from winning. this will make Arenas/RBGs more exciting.
- here you can see what rating you need to get better gear:

• 0000-1600 rating => 840 ilvl
• 1600-1900 rating => 850 ilvl
• 1900-2200 rating => 860 ilvl
• 2200-2400 rating => 870 ilvl (Elite Gear)
• 2400-3xxx rating => 880 ilvl (Elite Gear)

- ALL PvP gear also has a chance to be warforged/titanforged, increasing its ilvl by 5 or 10 or 15 or more if you are extremely lucky. the maximum titanforged ilvl in Legion Season 1 is 895. example: if you have 3000 rating in 3s, then winning might reward you with a titanforged 895 ilvl piece of PvP gear ( 880 (base ilvl) +5 (first warforged-roll) +5 (second warforged-roll) +5 (first titanforged-roll) = 895 )
- PvE set bonuses, enchants, legendary bonuses, or trinkets will be deactivated in instanced PvP



Discussion A: "r1 Gladiator 880 ilvl" vs. "fresh level 110 in greens"

- everyone who joins Skirmishes, Battlegrounds, Arenas or RBGs at level 110 will have a base ilvl of 850 even when your actual ilvl is still 780 from questing etc.
- this base ilvl will increase each season
- so in Legion Season 2 your fresh level 110 character with an ilvl of 780 will have an ilvl of let's say 900 in instanced PvP

- any stats you have on the gear you are wearing are nullified in instanced PvP
- every spec has a preset of stats that is active in instanced PvP
- in instanced PvP only the ilvl of the gear you are wearing matters
- the stats of the preset are increased by 0.1% for every point your ilvl goes above ilvl 800
- as soon your ilvl is higher than 800, you will get a tiny bit stronger in PvP (e.g. if your ilvl is 810 the stats on your PvP preset increase by 1%)
- conclusion: the r1 Gladiator with 880 ilvl has only 8% more stats in instanced PvP than the fresh level 110 in greens. that’s roughly the same increase that a mere 8 ilvl increase gives in Warlords of Draenor.

Discussion B: will my opponents ever have better gear than me in rated PvP?

- as long as you climb the ladder gradually, you will always fight players with a similar ilvl
- players with 2200 rating, for example, will have an average ilvl of 870 after a few weeks on that rating. these players will only be fighting other players who also have an ilvl of 870
- exception: let's say a player has 2500 rating in 2s but only 1900 rating in 3s. this player will have an average ilvl of 875 because of his 2s rating, which means he will fight players with a slightly lower ilvl of 860 in 3s.

• 15 more ilvls equals 1.5% more stats, which is really not that much

• players with a rating of 2500 in 2s usually have a similar or even higher rating in 3s

- there is no catch-up mechanic for alts that start pushing rating/farming gear mid-season
- so the only players who will be at a 'disadvantage' gear-wise are r1 Gladiators who want to push rating on an alt mid-season
- conclusion: while you might fight an 880 ilvl r1 Gladiator in a skirmish or Battleground, you will always be fighting PvP players with a similar ilvl to yours in rated PvP

Discussion C: PvE gear vs. PvP gear in instanced PvP

- in Legion there won't be any PvP-specific stats (like PvP Power or Resilience etc.)
- an 850 ilvl piece of gear you got from PvE will be just as powerful as an 850 ilvl piece of gear you got from PvP
- having 850 ilvl in full PvE gear will increase the stats on your PvP preset by 5%, just like having 850 ilvl in full PvP gear would
- a player in Heroic Dungeon gear (825 ilvl) will be just as strong as a player in full Battleground/Skirmish gear
- a player in Heroic Raid gear (865 ilvl) will be just as strong as a PvP player on 2200+ rating (2v2, 3v3, RBG)
- a player in Mythic Raid gear (880 ilvl) will be just as strong as a PvP player on 2400+ rating
- this means that if you are a Mythic raider, you will always have a tiny bit more stats than your opponents in PvP until you fight 2400+ players
- but it also means that 2400+ players will be able to join Mythic raids without setting foot in Mythic Dungeons/Heroic Raids etc
- to me, this seems fair, because if you want to get to 2400 rating as a Mythic raider then you would have to get better at PvP first. and if a group full of 2400+ rated PvPers wanted to clear a raid on Mythic then they would have to get better at PvE first
- disclaimer: there is still a possibility that Blizzard will nerf PvP gear hard in PvE (for example by removing 1 secondary stat from PvP items) - but seeing that only the best PvPers will have a chance to join Mythic raids and only the best PvErs will have have an advantage in rated PvP - a nerf to PvP gear shouldn't be necessary
- conclusion: PvE gear won't be an issue in instanced PvP because Blizzard has limited the power gap gear can create in PvP (in instanced PvP: a player in full 880 Mythic Raid gear has only 8% more stats than a player in full quest greens)

Discussion D: World PvP

- World PvP in Legion won't have any rules
- out in the world nothing will be nullified, nothing will be disabled, there won't be any stat presets, nor will your ilvl be magically increased
- on top of your PvP talents: PvE set bonuses, enchants, legendary bonuses and trinkets will all be active
- this will make World PvP wild and fun
- a r1 Gladiator or Mythic raider will have 80% more stats than your fresh level 110 toon and he will one-shot you...and honestly? - this is how it should be in World PvP
- slay Dragons or participate in balanced, instanced PvP and at the end of the day you will be able to hold your own in the open world
- and don't be afraid: there won't be many r1 Gladiators/Mythic raiders with an ilvl of 880. the majority of players will have an ilvl of around 850 which can be obtained through a variety of activities that don't require you to be the best at the game.
- something to note for PvP players: enchants and trinkets are disabled in instanced PvP, but they work in World PvP/Duells. so don't forget to enchant your gear and wear trinkets if you want to maximise your gear for World PvP.
- conclusion: World PvP will be frustrating at times because the game isn't balanced around it (for obvious reasons), but the stronger your character gets the more fun it will be!

Discussion E: the impact of Artifact Weapons on PvP

- in Legion they have drastically reduced the power gap gear can create in rated PvP
- the PvP talents seem to be well balanced and can be unlocked quickly
- the preset of stats for every spec can be adjusted easily to make balance changes in PvP without affecting PvE
- the Artifact Weapon, on the other hand, could potentially bring a bit of imbalance to rated PvP
- read "2. Artifact Weapon" now, if you haven't already
- completing Work Orders in your Order Hall will award you with Artifact Research Notes
- using Artifact Research Notes will grant you Artifact Knowledge, increasing the rate at which you earn Artifact Power
- a player who starts completing these Work Orders from the first week onwards will always have a stronger Artifact Weapon than someone who hits level 110 in the middle of the ongoing PvP season
- missing even 2-3 weeks worth of Work Orders or not having the time to effectively farm Artifact Power will make you fall behind when it comes to Artifact Weapons
- some Artifact talents/traits make your spec noticeably stronger => to stay competitive you will want to keep your Artifact Weapon up to date for the whole season
- Artifact Weapons also make multiclassing more time-consuming, resulting in lesser player participation/longer queue times in rated PvP
- my guess is that Blizzard will reduce the duration of the Work Orders at the end of every season, so that alts have a chance to catch up on Artifact Power for the new season
- PvP seasons will be much shorter in Legion so not being able to fully catch up on an alt mid-season won't be that big of a deal
- disclaimer: maybe I went a little overboard and the Artifact talents/traits that players will unlock during the first PvP season won't actually make a huge difference in power - we will know when the time comes
- conclusion: you should probably level all your PvP characters to 110 and start the Work Order in your Order Hall immediately (if you want to play competitively in the first PvP season of Legion)

--- update on ELITE gear: you need to to have a rating of 2200 or higher in order to have a chance to get a piece of Elite PvP gear from winning rated Arenas/Battlegrounds. The Elite PvP gear has an ilvl of 870 or higher ---

[ns66]

- winning a Skirmish or a Battleground will award you with a box that can contain a blue 810-825 ilvl piece of PvP gear
- winning a rated Arena or rated Battleground will award you with a box that can contain a blue or epic 840-880 ilvl piece of PvP gear, depending on your current rating in that bracket (2v2, 3v3, RBG)

so unrated BG will give you max 825 blues, what a nice rollback to past failure

[salovia]

Thank you for the summary - I really liked this breakdown. I am not the type of player that religiously follows mmochamp or blizzard posts to keep up with every change leading up to an expac and so far I've found it really confusing to understand what the heck is going on in the game this time around. Thanks again!

[Mafic]

so unrated BG will give you max 825 blues, what a nice rollback to past failure

It is the failed WotLK model revisited where PVE gear is #1 and better PVP gear is gated by rating.

Throw in PVP talents and prestige and it is one hot mess. At least in WotLK even in a loss for a random BG you still earned something.

Legion PVP is cancer.

[ns66]

It is the failed WotLK model revisited where PVE gear is #1 and better PVP gear is gated by rating.

Throw in PVP talents and prestige and it is one hot mess. At least in WotLK even in a loss for a random BG you still earned something.

Legion PVP is cancer.

yeah pvp overhaul removed all the pvp fun for pvpers, only make it more attractive to pve raiders, i bet they will lose tons of subs from pvp camp, me for one

[Mafic]

yeah pvp overhaul removed all the pvp fun for pvpers, only make it more attractive to pve raiders, i bet they will lose tons of subs from pvp camp, me for one

I am sitting it out for a long time, because the balance is off the first two seasons, but also these changes are going to cause long queue times. Rated play is going to collapse by the second season.

[ns66]

I am sitting it out for a long time, because the balance is off the first two seasons, but also these changes are going to cause long queue times. Rated play is going to collapse by the second season.

I don't care so much about balance, that I can handle, but remove all pvp gear/gems/enchant/glyphs, and only gives blue to BG, what's the fun for that? I might as well play counter-strike

[Mafic]

I don't care so much about balance, that I can handle, but remove all pvp gear/gems/enchant/glyphs, and only gives blue to BG, what's the fun for that? I might as well play counter-strike

At least in WotLK you could buy blue PVP gear in a reasonable time frame farming honor or get enough valor/justice points for decent gear. The only drawback was no PVP honor weapons which ended up being a huge gate for players in ratings when they faced players with PVE weapons, tier 1 PVP weapons and tier 2 PVP weapons.

Legion? Shit tons of RNG where you can go play random BG's three month straight and be missing gear because of RNG boxes.

Blizzard had their fee fees hurt when players avoided doing their boring PVE content in WoD t to gear up through PVP instead (Ashran).

[ns66]

At least in WotLK you could buy blue PVP gear in a reasonable time frame farming honor or get enough valor/justice points for decent gear. The only drawback was no PVP honor weapons which ended up being a huge gate for players in ratings when they faced players with PVE weapons, tier 1 PVP weapons and tier 2 PVP weapons.

Legion? Shit tons of RNG where you can go play random BG's three month straight and be missing gear because of RNG boxes.

Blizzard had their fee fees hurt when players avoided doing their boring PVE content in WoD t to gear up through PVP instead (Ashran).

I'd love to gear up through pvp, pve quests are just stupid, get bored so fast, i don't know why in legion they make it even more daily quest fest, it's unbelievable

when will blizzard learn the simple truth, to keep players they need to make them enjoy the game, not force them to do something they don't like

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

could just say play warlock, those recent buffs are going to make it unkillable

[Krusza]

First of all, why does gear being gated even matter? Do you play PvP just to gear? What's the point in that?

The gear makes a minimal difference. If you don't play rated, the average player is like 1800. That's a 1% stat increase.

And even at the top end of the ladder, 2900+ players will have a 4% stat increase over you. Oh no. It's not like if you're 1500 and the enemy is 2900 that gear is going to come into the equation anyway.

I really don't get all the fuss. Are people seriously only PvPing to get gear? And are they really crying about the best players having a 4% stat increase over them?

I don't like the RNG box system, but when gear makes barely any difference, I really don't care. And I don't see why anyone else does.

This is the closest thing to "gear not mattering in PvP" they've ever done which is what everyone always cried about. Now they're having a hissy fit like they're going to die to a r1 player because of a 4% stat increase and not because they're 10x the player. Yes, newsflash, gear is 2% of the reason you're going to be dying.

yeah pvp overhaul removed all the pvp fun for pvpers, only make it more attractive to pve raiders, i bet they will lose tons of subs from pvp camp, me for one

The only people who care about gear so much are random BG spammers which make up 0% of the competitive PvPers. No one really cares about it. I think you'll find actual gameplay is 10x more important for most people.

The people that are saying "Legion PvP is going to suck because of this" are acting like the only thing to do in the game is gear.

It's a great system. Stat templates mean they can actually try and balance shit separately from PvE, which is long overdue, but at least it's here now. I know you'll say "they won't use it" but they already have. They've been doing a lot of hotfixes recently just for PvP changes alone and I'd say after playing beta it's looking like it's going to be the best expansion for PvP yet (sorry for talking down the holy and infallible WoTLK, but it's true)

PvE gear is not going to "dominate" for reasons I said earlier. You're not going to die to someone just because they've got 2% more stats than you.

For casual PvPers, you have a prestige progression system instead of gearing. I don't see the issue with it, I think it's a good system that actually adds a reward from doing BGs. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. You're not going to be gimped by being lower prestige than someone.

I am sitting it out for a long time, because the balance is off the first two seasons, but also these changes are going to cause long queue times. Rated play is going to collapse by the second season.

I'd expect more rated participation than ever partly due to the seperate faction ladders. Means horde players can actually queue now.

[ns66]

First of all, why does gear being gated even matter? Do you play PvP just to gear? What's the point in that?

The gear makes a minimal difference. If you don't play rated, the average player is like 1800. That's a 1% stat increase.

And even at the top end of the ladder, 2900+ players will have a 4% stat increase over you. Oh no. It's not like if you're 1500 and the enemy is 2900 that gear is going to come into the equation anyway.

I really don't get all the fuss. Are people seriously only PvPing to get gear? And are they really crying about the best players having a 4% stat increase over them?

I don't like the RNG box system, but when gear makes barely any difference, I really don't care. And I don't see why anyone else does.

This is the closest thing to "gear not mattering in PvP" they've ever done which is what everyone always cried about. Now they're having a hissy fit like they're going to die to a r1 player because of a 4% stat increase and not because they're 10x the player. Yes, newsflash, gear is 2% of the reason you're going to be dying.



The only people who care about gear so much are random BG spammers which make up 0% of the competitive PvPers. No one really cares about it. I think you'll find actual gameplay is 10x more important for most people.

The people that are saying "Legion PvP is going to suck because of this" are acting like the only thing to do in the game is gear.

It's a great system. Stat templates mean they can actually try and balance shit separately from PvE, which is long overdue, but at least it's here now. I know you'll say "they won't use it" but they already have. They've been doing a lot of hotfixes recently just for PvP changes alone and I'd say after playing beta it's looking like it's going to be the best expansion for PvP yet (sorry for talking down the holy and infallible WoTLK, but it's true)

PvE gear is not going to "dominate" for reasons I said earlier. You're not going to die to someone just because they've got 2% more stats than you.

For casual PvPers, you have a prestige progression system instead of gearing. I don't see the issue with it, I think it's a good system that actually adds a reward from doing BGs. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. You're not going to be gimped by being lower prestige than someone.



I'd expect more rated participation than ever partly due to the seperate faction ladders. Means horde players can actually queue now.

do you understand what makes a mmorpg mmorpg? it's about progression, it's about slowly get better gear and make your char more powerful and feel better (however small the increase maybe), if gear don't matter, why do pve guys need gear? why don't they get templates too and only make raiding boss more and more powerful when pvers get more and more "skilled"? tell that to raiders then come back to us, LMAO

not to mention there's NO leveling playing field since artifact weapon will be the biggest gear difference ever, lol

[Krusza]

do you understand what makes a mmorpg mmorpg? it's about progression, it's about slowly get better gear and make your char more powerful and feel better (however small the increase maybe), if gear don't matter, why do pve guys need gear? why don't they get templates too and only make raiding boss more and more powerful when pvers get more and more "skilled"? tell that to raiders then come back to us, LMAO

not to mention there's NO leveling playing field since artifact weapon will be the biggest gear difference ever, lol

You do get better gear, you just have to get better to get it, just like in PvE.

Artifact weapon progression is designed so people can't get too far ahead.

[ns66]

You do get better gear, you just have to get better to get it, just like in PvE.

Artifact weapon progression is designed so people can't get too far ahead.

except the gear in pvp don't matter much, as you have said, lol

[Krusza]

except the gear in pvp don't matter much, as you have said, lol

But as you said, MMORPGs are about progression, which does exist. Getting rating is progression. Prestige system is progression. Artifacts are progression.

More progression than getting fully geared in 3 days. It wasn't really progression when it was so trivial.

You sort of have to let some leeway when it comes to the RPG aspect of the game in PvP if you want it be competitive.

[Vagabond]

- in Legion honor is no longer a currency but works just like XP

How to buy old PvP gears for appearances? Gold?

[Deleted]

How to buy old PvP gears for appearances? Gold?

Mark of Honor is a new token that will replace Honor Points. It will be used to purchase old PvP items from past expansions.

Mark of Honor will be available from Battlegrounds, Arenas, and Skirmishes.

1 Mark of Honor: pre-Warlords Belts, Bracers, Cloaks, PvP gems, tabards, battle standards.
2 Mark of Honor: pre-Warlords shoulders, gloves, feet, off-hand, and shields
3 Mark of Honor: pre-Warlords helms, chests, legs, and shoulder enchants like Greater Inscription of Vicious Intellect
4 Mark of Honor: Inherited Insignia of the Horde, Inherited Insignia of the Alliance, Inherited Mark of Tyranny
5 Mark of Honor: pre-Warlords weapons
8 Mark of Honor: Heirloom Armor
10 Mark of Honor: Heirlom Weapons
12 Mark of Honor: Armor Ensemble, all armor slots for a specific clas PvP set.
14 Mark of Honor: Ancient Heirloom Scabbard
15 Mark of Honor: PvP Honor Mounts (not Vicious Saddles)
80 Mark of Honor: Weapon Aresenals, all weapons from a Warlords Combatant or Gladiator season

source: http://www.wowhead.com/guides/pvp/legion

[Vagabond]

Mark of Honor is a new token that will replace Honor Points. It will be used to purchase old PvP items from past expansions.

Mark of Honor will be available from Battlegrounds, Arenas, and Skirmishes.

1 Mark of Honor: pre-Warlords Belts, Bracers, Cloaks, PvP gems, tabards, battle standards.
2 Mark of Honor: pre-Warlords shoulders, gloves, feet, off-hand, and shields
3 Mark of Honor: pre-Warlords helms, chests, legs, and shoulder enchants like Greater Inscription of Vicious Intellect
4 Mark of Honor: Inherited Insignia of the Horde, Inherited Insignia of the Alliance, Inherited Mark of Tyranny
5 Mark of Honor: pre-Warlords weapons
8 Mark of Honor: Heirloom Armor
10 Mark of Honor: Heirlom Weapons
12 Mark of Honor: Armor Ensemble, all armor slots for a specific clas PvP set.
14 Mark of Honor: Ancient Heirloom Scabbard
15 Mark of Honor: PvP Honor Mounts (not Vicious Saddles)
80 Mark of Honor: Weapon Aresenals, all weapons from a Warlords Combatant or Gladiator season

source: http://www.wowhead.com/guides/pvp/legion

ah, I thought Mark of Honor will be removed in Legion

[Deleted]

Good read! thanks for the info

[ns66]

I just found out guild wars 2 has rave reviews, and you can jump straight to pvp without even questing/leveling, wow, that's pvpers dream come true, I will give it a try, no more screaming and kicking with blizzard, I will come back if they come to their senses and rollback the stupid pvp overhaul in legion

- - - Updated - - -

But as you said, MMORPGs are about progression, which does exist. Getting rating is progression. Prestige system is progression. Artifacts are progression.

More progression than getting fully geared in 3 days. It wasn't really progression when it was so trivial.

You sort of have to let some leeway when it comes to the RPG aspect of the game in PvP if you want it be competitive.

yeah do that do pve raiders, no more gear, all templates, everyone equal, "it's all about skill" right? kill bosses as progression, and blizzard will give you some titles LOL